"myths and outright lies!" Topic

Gents,
lie 1
this topic is about both ,like just eble saved the grande armee at the berezina.
My info states a dutch general benthiem died in hamburg 1814 by scicknes,
helped him acording to the story the pontoons left there to be distroyed on napoleons order but he refused! This info i have got from the bridge building compagnies today.

the bridges were made by two contries. not just frogs myth 1one lakes at austerlitz alone!
there must be more grts serg joe

I feel like I have just wandered into a different dimension, where the rules of conversation are somehow different……did someone time travel and tread on a butterfly or something?

I'm sorry, I don't understand a word of this.

I think he said that his hovercraft is full of eels.

dear bumsore,
I'm just looking for more of both grts serg joe

zyphyr eh? grts ergjoe

dear bumsore,
I'm just looking for more of both grts serg joe

I can only assume you mean more of both "myths" and "lies". I could not make head nor tail of the examples you cited.

As for myths, how about:
"Ther British always fought in line, The French always attacked in column".

Actually, thinking about it, can anyone explain the difference between a "myth" and a "lie" in this context?

I believe the meaningful difference is that a myth is when someone makes a statement believing it to be true that in fact isn't, whereas a lie is when someone makes a statement knowing it to be false.

Of course, I could be wrong …

This one info . Next time i wil be clear in asking some thing!!

I'm looking for lies and myths in general in napoleonic wars. greetings serg joe

stil trying stil ttrying but with little succes! grts serg joe

Well, serg joe is based in the Netherlands so perhaps you all aught to comunicate with him in Dutch if you can't understand his English?

n1 lieFurther that the Pontoons were destroyed by Napoleon's order but h general eble saved acording to the French army on his one the grande armee grts serg joe

Why do you guys all have to be so mean to him.

If English is a second language to him, be kind and try and help him out. It takes a lot of courage to use an unfamiliar Language. As for me I thought his post was quite clear, and you can figure out what he wants by not dismissing it out of hand, but rather trying to understand.

I think Serg is trying to collect examples of "Myths and Lies about the Napoleonic Wars. he gave one that he has found that General Eble was not responsible for creating the Bridge that saved the Grand Armee in the Retreat from Moscow.

Further that the Pontoons were destroyed by Napoleon's order but he, the Dutch General refused.

Not so hard.

Why can't you guys be nice to each other? Why can't you help him out? If he sees it more, and uses it more, his English will become more proficient? It's a hobby, we're all in this together.

Is there not misery enough for you in the world?

I agree Oschmidt

It was not really all that hard to figure out what Serg was trying to get at. His attempt at communication may not have been perfect, but hardly worth the negative tone given here.

So I opened this thread imaging it would be a flame war between opposing parties because one wargamer's myth is another's lie. Instead I find a thread with an original post I can't completely understand and a lot of people playing, 'pick on the dutch guy,' I'm not sure if this meets or exceeds my expectation.

Cheers,

The Bandit

do not like chest pounding by
i hope this the correct word for it!
we did this and they did that!!!
. and vaghan you hit the spot
grts serg joe

Well one myth is that Blucher at Ligny deployed his men on a forward slope where they were shot to pieces by French artillery. The first part may have been true for a couple of brigades, but these would have been out of reach of French artillery.

The myth started with a quote from Wellington from his meeting with Blucher before the battle. He claims that Blucher told him that his men deployed on the forward slope so that they should see their enemy. This quote was not corroborated by any of the others present at the conversation. I prefer not to call it a lie, but suggest it might have been a misunderstanding which Lord W chose to exaggerate to enhance his reputation as a brilliant general.

And this was the start of a great reverse slope myth that has endured almost ever since amongst British military historians (i.e. that Wellington invented reverse slope tactics and was the only general to use them).
Matthew

I understood the gist of what he was asking. Then again I have worked with a lot of people for whom writing or talking in English is foreign to them.

as far as the myth of the Berezina goes – I have not done enough research so cannot answer. Will leave that up to my more learned colleagues.

Why pick on Serg Joe's English skills? Don't let the elitist childish trolls here bully you.

Joe, you could always write your post in Dutch using Google Translator and then have it translate it to English. I've done this with great success using German to English.

translate.google.com

serg joe

I think it may help if you post your question also in the original language. I also have some difficulty understanding your English. I am not saying you are using it wrong (there are such things as different dialects of English so I cannot know if you are simply using the English you are accustomed to). So if you can post a question as well in another language it may help. I dare venture and say that there should be some Napolenic gamers that know more than just English.

I am only saying this because your questions sometimes are interesting but hard for this poster to dicipher.

I've seen Serg in other posts and never got the troll vibe. Just poor English grammar/spelling skills, which are better than my German skills.

As an English professor with 75 Composition I essays sitting on my desk right now, I understand how clarity is important. But guys on the Nap boards just love to jump all over anyone they can, making fun of them. That's childish.

Serg, come over to the ACW boards! We're a lot friendlier and have cookies.

If English is a second language to him, be kind and try and help him out. It takes a lot of courage to use an unfamiliar Language.

I tried that once with another poster on TMP whose English wasn't very good. He got most uppity about it and everyone else told me to lay off him, so I don't want to run the risk of offering such help again!

But guys on the Nap boards just love to jump all over anyone they can, making fun of them. That's childish.

I don't think anyone here was making fun of him, but rather saying that they had difficulty understanding what he was on about.

I was able to get a sense of what Serg wanted despite the garbled message. English is apparently not his first language. You have to wonder why we are known as UGLY Americans when abroad.

It is easy to nitpick, but why not try to figure things out before firing off a bunch of criticism?

Kevin

Kevin why are you assuming everybody in this conversation is american? :p

KTravlos

despite making fun of me you should topics talking to everybody i'm no not it all.
b. t.w. How many of you are out there? grts serg joe

there is a saying in the Netherlands you are not much if you ain't dutch!.
gents ,take that to the bank? YOU SHUP UP NOW? GRTS ERG JOE

NOT THE FRENCH WERE THE ONLY LIARS EVERY NATION AND ARMY HAD THEIR SHARE TO KEEP UP THE MORALE!
GRTS SERG JOE

There are 17 of us….

18 now.
Serg please keep posting and reading, we all have a right to do that on TMP. Just because Dutch is your first language and English second should not really bother anyone. Honestly I did not understand your first post because I have no knowledge of either event. Once it was explained by a kind gent who had knowledge, I understood it.

Myths and lies are different I think.

I lie is a deliberate statement that isn't true to cover or hide the truth.

A myth is like a popular misconception. May be based on truth but gets distorted my time and word of mouth.

Many myths in history, not so many outright lies.

Some common myths.
Highlanders – the myth surrounding them portrays them as fearsome hand to hand combat troops. Many rules sets reinforce this with giving highlanders a bonus in close combat or some kind of berserker rule. Really bayonet fights were not so frequent outside of street fights, and the few British examples involve English or Irish regiments.

Wellington – the myth says he was a defensive general. – He was both skilled in attack and defense. His weakness was in seige warfare. Very sloppy. Set price offensive battles were no problem.

The "destruction" of the 69th. – the myth has them destroyed and slaughtered by French cavalry. Most of the casualties were from two companies and fell trying to protect the colours. The number of casualties was slight and if I remember rightly the lost most of their casualties a Waterloo.

Just off the top of my head.

There are lots of misunderstandings on forums.

FOR EXAMPLE, did I just yell or use capitals for emphasis? I grew up pre-internet and had to unlearn using capitals when I went online because on the web capitals are shouting.

Did serg joe just shout? Given the internet protocols many (not all) people use not only did he apparently shout but many would say capitals were also indicative of anger.

So let me ask. serg joe, did you intend emphasis, shouting, or anger when you used capitals when you posted at 12:48 and 1:00, please?

There are lots of misunderstandings on forums.

FOR EXAMPLE, did I just yell or use capitals for emphasis? I grew up pre-internet and had to unlearn using capitals when I went online because on the web capitals are shouting.

Did serg joe just shout? Given the internet protocols many (not all) people use not only did he apparently shout but many would say capitals were also indicative of anger.

So let me ask. serg joe, did you intend emphasis, shouting, or anger when you used capitals when you posted at 12:48 and 1:00, please?

Well I for one am glad to discover he is merely ESL and not learning disabled.

Rather than assuming he was drunk, you could have clicked on his name and found out.

serg joe, all I said is that it may help some of us if you post your questions also in your native language because some might be able to read it. Your English is your English and you do not need to apologize for it.

What is it called if you just post the same message multiple times, is that emphasis, anger or shouting?

Cheers,

The Bandit

I identify trade about learn research this more small the timely state. Once the notice and benefits not problems. Clearly desire may need negative purchase.
grits,
HJ

And this was the start of a great reverse slope myth that has endured almost ever since amongst British military historians (i.e. that Wellington invented reverse slope tactics and was the only general to use them).
Matthew

Interesting Matthew, I've not come across this one in the canon of work that attempts to denigrate Wellington. Could you give just a few of these references for Wellington being the only general to use reverse slopes, or indeed that he 'invented' this wise practice….

I'm not suggesting for a moment that the French and Prussians, and for that matter the Russians and Austrians did not themselves regularly deploy in reverse slope positions prior to 1808, I'm just curious…

As for myths, how about:
"The British always fought in line, The French always attacked in column".

Or perhaps a useful generalisation that characterises the majority of their engagements?

The use of the world 'always' is dangerous when talking about the past!

What is it called if you just post the same message multiple times, is that emphasis, anger or shouting?

Cheers,

The Bandit

Bandit, it means I had a slow computer and posted twice as a result of thinking I had not posted (Didn't I just push submit? moment) the first time.

Your question is an example of why the internet is prone to cause misunderstanding. Typing is so devoid of the clues that speaking (even over a phone) provides.

There are myths, lies and after action reports.

"In war, truth is the first casualty." (Aeschylus)

Yeah you, hit the spot grts serg joe

@matthewgreen

That's not the Duke that I've read about ( exaggerating to enhancing his reputation).
; )

Critical comments about the good Duke, no matter how much evidence is in existence, are considered bad form in these parts, Matthew

National heroes aren't subject to the critical analysis that other historical figures may be.

Recovered 1AO,

Your question is an example of why the internet is prone to cause misunderstanding. Typing is so devoid of the clues that speaking (even over a phone) provides.

Actually my question was a bad joke, I presumed that the double-post was unintentional, it is semi-common.

Sparker,

As for myths, how about:
"The British always fought in line, The French always attacked in column".

Or perhaps a useful generalisation that characterises the majority of their engagements?

The use of the world 'always' is dangerous when talking about the past!

Hence why it is a myth…

Gozzaoz,

National heroes aren't subject to the critical analysis that other historical figures may be.

Unless they are Napoleon? :-p

Cheers,

The Bandit

I think the Austrians used the reverse slope tactic to good effect way back in 1793 at Wattignies, before they were outflanked by greater numbers of French and had to retreat.

Probably many earlier examples, but outside of the era that I mostly read about.

Oh Bandit, did you really ask…

…oops missed the tone and then saw the smiley!

Sparker: haven't you read Hamilton-Williams on Waterloo? I know the guy turned out to be a fraud, and you can't accept anything he says without a double-check – be he accuses Lord W of making the whole story up.

And as for Wellington inventing reverse slope tactics I have come across this frequently in British works of history. Take this from David Chandler's Campaigns of Napoleon.

Most of the system's failures were experienced when fighting Wellington; he had discovered the perfect countertactics to the French method. By keeping the bulk of his men concealed behind reverse slopes, he not only protected them from the worst attentions of the French artillery and skirmishers…, but also upset the calculations of the officers commanding the French attacking columns…

And that quote goes on to explain what I think of as the standard myth.

I could try to find a few more references in this vein, except that I try to avoid historians who simply repeat this sort of mythology rather than pull apart what actually happened.

Gozzaoz. Funnily enough Lord W is one of my heroes. While his integrity was very high by the standards of people who have clawed their way up to such heights, he did not believe that an honest account of history achieved anything useful. And he did think a lot of himself. Not difficult to see why as he was head and shoulders above other British generals.

Most of the system's failures were experienced when fighting Wellington; he had discovered the perfect countertactics to the French method. By keeping the bulk of his men concealed behind reverse slopes, he not only protected them from the worst attentions of the French artillery and skirmishers…, but also upset the calculations of the officers commanding the French attacking columns…

I don't take Chandler to mean that Wellington invented reverse slope tactics. Rather that he found ways to counter the strengths of the French attacks. I know there are other examples of reverse slopes tactics in action, but I don't think anyone else of that era used it as effectively as Wellington. Also combine it with the Brits allowing troop to lie down to help reduce artillery casualties.

Reminds me a lot of how some people think Napoleon was the first to use the Corps System of organization. We know he wasn't but he sure employed it to greater effect than his contemporaries.

@matthewgreen

Rightfully so, Lord W should be considered a national hero of yours and others. But I have been flamed/criticised on forums when I have suggested as you did, that he coloured the truth to suit his own military or later political ambitions.
Ironically the same people point out without any reservations, that Napoleon did the same for his own self serving reasons. Read J David Markham's Imperial Glory the bulletin's are full of self promotion & straight out lies.
Of course the ambitious person will self promote it's part of the definition of an ambitious person.
My issue is in evenhandedness. If we accept that Napoleon was an ambitious self promoter why wouldn't Lord Wellington be? Human nature. It doesn't necessarily make you a bad person.
I think to some, that to admit that a National Hero of Lord Wellington's stature would resort to such antics tarnishes his reputation somewhat and they would rather live in denial. But he was a human being, that's what humans do.

@Bandit
I agree Napoleon is fair game. When you are/were at the top of the tree be it in any walk of life, you will be picked apart mercilessly for the slightest indiscretion.