"is it worth switching from 20mm to 15mm" Topic

I have always been a die hard 20mm player but with 1 kid roaming around the house like a Attila the Hun and another one due in a few months, space has become a premium.

Loving Battlegroup Kursk at the moment so I've got a fair amount of Germans and Russians in 20mm plus some Brits for Normandy and countless desert stuff.

The question is this? Does 15mm really save you that much space? I keep my units in box files (one for the foot sloggers, one for tanks, per army) but I have the broom cupboard for my army storage and its becoming very full.

The other two questions are;

Does 15mm have the range that 20mm has?

Is there much of a price difference?

cheers for you help.

My view:
20mm range is superior, especially plastic kits
very little difference in space
20mm is often cheaper…

PS – 20+ mm plastics are very impressive these days.

I did the switch some years ago for precisely that reason. I can store more than twice as much 15mm in the same volume. It is not just the footprint, but the height as well.
Yes 20mm plastics are very nice, but also getting pretty expensive too. Yes 20mm still has the best variety, but much of the more esoteric kit is expensive short run resin kits. 15mm is. It far behind these days though.

Stay with 20mm, far nicer.

Been there, done that. Would only switch if you are looking for a reason to do so anyway. 15s do take up less space, but a lot depends on your storage system. I'd try some creative storage methods. That is what I did.

If starting from scratch I'd got 15mm all the way. While there is some space equivalence as far as infantry go, vehicles and guns are far bigger in 20mm and require full height box files rather than half height ones.

However I'm not starting from scratch and still have tons of 20mm stuff, as well as 15mm, and 6mmm…

I didn't find the kids caused particular storage problems, I just put shelving in right up to the ceilings. Yes I need a ladder to reach the top boxes, but it increased the available storage space by 50%.

I really wouldn't get rid of the stuff you currently have, you'll only regret it.

Don't know anyone who switched and regretted it … then again I tend to keep my old stuff anyway (so evolve rather than switch) …

Like Martin says, 'from scratch' 15mm wins all the way

Just my view, of course

Phil
P.B.Eye-Candy

I thought exactly about doing the same thing for the exact same reason. To be honest, in the time it will take to replace, repaint, and rebuild your kids will no longer be a problem. It just seems like yesterday they were getting into everything, and now they are playing the games with me.

In terms of space, not sure changing scales will really make that much of a difference. If anything, saving space will lead to buying more armies and more terrain that will fill up that space anyway. lol Or you'll set them aside for a while a few years. Kids can be awfully demanding on your time. : )

Save the money and keep the 20mm kits! And Congratulations by the way! My two Cherubs are 15 and 17 now and I finally reset up my painting table after 10 years.

Cheers
Duane

If I were going to switch from 20mm it would be to 10mm, not 15mm.
10mm is an excellent scale – 15mm is neither one thing nor the other, IMO.
Too small for much detail, too big for big battles.

I think I'll come to the defence of 15mm.. I too have looked at both. 20mm allows nicer models, and you can tap into the brilliant plastic model market, and there are oodles of cheapish plastic figures as well as great metal ranges, but it does have an effect upon the table. My 8x4 table is fine for a 20mm platoon level battle group game but a company level game would be over crowded and not allow proper maneuver and use of terrain – it would end up a slugfest. 15mm provides some very nice models, and with care they can look great too – and there are great and growing metal and plastic ranges (its not all battlefront and PSC) and lovely figures (take the AB Russian partisans for example – exquisite), and in terms of both storage and gaming quality on a small table in my view is the better scale for me. 10mm may also be good, but I like painting and don't possess a microscope.

I am tempted to get some 20mm for platoon level games such as Chain of Commend however, bah – I've just destroyed my argument.

James

I've been debating doing the opposite, going from 15 to 20! I play skirmish with individually based figures. In 20mm I can see the weapons. In 15mm I need to mark the bases to distinguish weapons, such as a BAR or carbine.

The size difference is 25% to 30% depending on the model. I usually play on a 3x5 table in 15mm. If I were to play on the table in 20mm or 1:72, it would be like playing on a circa 2.25x3.6 table in 15mm. I would need a 4x7 table in 20mm. That make sense?

You cans do the math to convert you models.

Don't scalehopp…

20mm is your scale.. The plastic kits alternative far outweigh any over concerns. In some years are your kids out of your household and you have lost these years in your main scale…

Don't

Greetings

Stick with 20mm. The choice of vehicles has never been better & there still exciting new releases !
There are very good figures to be had too. If you`re like me of a more mature disposition, painting those smaller details can be very challenging.

Why start over?

YG-- I play both, 15mm for BGK and 20mm for BG Overlord and FotR and I'm happy with the way they play and look in the two scales. I started with all 15mm but the 20s are so nice I just had to add them to my collection.

I would say, though, that if you have a pretty good amount of kit already you should stay with what you have. The slight difference in size isn't worth making the jump. That's why I stayed with 15mm for Kursk-- I had tons of tanks for both sides (plus they were all painted) and didn't want to spend all the money to switch. But Normandy and Late War was all new so it got the premium 20mm treatment.

Like Nazat I have the same thing. The sad part is I started in 20mm than went to 28mm. But my friends are in FOW so I changed over to 15mm. The 28mm troop have taken shelter in their storage boxes. Hang on to your 20mm vehicles and troops.

I have both. Started with just 15mm. Invested in a small amount of 20mm and to be honest I don't think I'll ever buy 15mm again. My opinion of course. I am inclined to play smaller battles recently too. I think 20mm look far nicer on a table…but as others have said there are practical advantages with 15mm. I think nazrat gives good advice

No – the effort is not compensated for by a big enough reward. Either get radical and go for 2/3/6mm or stick with what you have.

I'm with Dexter, don't forget 10mm!

I know it's a bit outside the topic you specified, but hear me out. I'm with all those folks that are recommending not getting away from 20mm, as you've already done a lot of work there.

You mention the kids as an issue, and I'm also with the folks that say this isn't a permanent situation. So, to me, the thing that makes most sense would not be to re-do everything you already have in 20mm permanently, but to get something quick, cheap, and easy to carry you through the tough times.

So, I would recommend a "side-project" (wives always like to hear that) in 3mm, 6mm, or 10mm. I have/had all three of those, and believe one of them would fit the bill perfectly. 10mm is my chosen scale, but my buddy Shaun Travers plays company level games in 6mm on about a 2' x 2' board he keeps in a drawer!

With 10mm I have 'multi-based' figures (like FOW basing) I use to play company- to battalion-level games on 4' x 4' to 6' x 4' tables, respectively. I also have individually based figures that I use for skirmish and platoon-level games on 2' x 2' to 3' x 3' tables, respectively.

For $60 USD you can get a battalion of infantry (one base is a squad), a company of tanks, plus some assorted troops/vehicles (a platoon of engineers, some ATGs, couple SPGs, etc…). For $40 USD you can get both sides for a platoon -level game with a couple vehicles. They paint up and base up real quick, and are easy to store.

My stuff will never win any trophies, but tell me this doesn't work as a cheap, quick side-project to get you through the lean times while the kids are young (I'm speaking from experience!):

Individually based troops for Disposable Heroes/Chain of Command/Bolt Action-type games, on a 3' x 3'.

Multi-based troops for BKC/IABSM/FOW/Battlegroup XX-type games, on a 6' x 4'.

I hope this helps.

V/R,
Jack

Stick with 20mm. It's already done and way more economical.

I don't think it's a case of "which scale is best"- we all have our views on that- but more of, is it worth his while, and will it help him, right now, to switch scales?

If you are not going to get much playing or painting done at this point anyway, whatever scale you have, then you might be better putting your existing 20mm forces in high-up storage out of the reach of little fingers, and then they will be all ready to use in future years.
If you do get some "me time" then you can add to the 20mm collection gradually.
I suggest the trouble and expense in starting from scratch would outweigh the debatable benefits in dealing with what will prove to be an all too transient phase.

Thanks for everyone's help. I've decided to keep with what I have. I do like the idea of a 10mm side project thou, but don't tell the mrs as I have new side project every month, hence why the lack of space.

If you enjoy the journey as much as the destination, it is worth switching. You get to paint whole new armies, vehicles, scenery, everything. But if you just want to line up your soldiers and say "bang bang you're dead," then stick with what you have :-)

I changed over about three years ago, and I haven't looked back since. 15mm figures aren't much smaller, but the difference in vehicles, and particularly terrain, is astonishing. You really do get tons more space, and in a lot of areas, a lot more players – most clubs tend to use 15 or 28 with nothing in between.

Don't ditch: 20mm is enjoying a comeback as a scale and you've already invested time, money and enthusiasm for it.

Advise against it. I had to sell all my 15mm and 28mm WWII stuff. Very depressed thereafter. When I started up again went with 20mm as less feeling of loss and having to build up what I had just lost.

Now it's '44 US and Germans before it was a lot of EW 15mm Russians and Germans, Brits and French. 28mm Soviets and Germans.
20mm is more of an adventure finding things in plastic, oop kits, resin and now a lot of metal add-ons and modifications. Reminds me of childhood building all those Airfix kits and playing (not gaming) with the Airfix figures. Use card buildings so no issue with terrain cost.

Based on my current experience, you're going to lose a lot of time being a father such that you may be lucky to get a few hours a week for painting let alone gaming. Switching scales won't help in that regard.

Kids are totally worth it, you can push lead and plastic later. Congratulations on number two!

One of the problems with scales other than 6mm, 15mm or 28mm is that there is very little available outside of WW2/moderns. If you game other periods the a switch to 15mm makes sense as you can rationalise terrain. That was one of the factors that decided me in favour of the swap – not having to keep 2 sets of buildings in different scales.
Another option while the kids are young is to buy some second hand Britains guns off EBay and some 54mm plastic infantry and have fun shooting matchsticks at them with the kids! I find plastic spruce makes good non lethal ammo too.

If starting from scratch I'd got 15mm all the way. While there is some space equivalence as far as infantry go, vehicles and guns are far bigger in 20mm and require full height box files rather than half height ones.

Yes, I've been amazed at how much bigger the 1/72 vehicles I have lurking in the storage unit are compared to 15mm.

But I really agree with Fred Cartwright on the terrain thing. I started into 15mm with Flames, and have been adding terrain to the collection. Even when I started into Napoleonics, the terrain is still recyclable. It's only the North Africa and Northwest Frontier stuff that really has trouble with terrain not matching (or Japan, but that terrain is more akin to European greens with different buildings on it).

If doing interesting side projects, I do them small scale. My 6mm fpw/apw/Italian wars stuffed fits inside one (very heavy) box file with internal shelving. Same for my 2mm cold war stuff.

They just aren't periods I'm interested in enough to go down the whole 20 boxfiles of stuff route, but the kit is nice to have and does get used.

To be honest we (MG) got into this position. We went from 25mm (which is anyting from 25mm to 28mm. Then down to 1/72 plastic as its cheap and lots available. 20 mm figs can fit in with them and even some "big" 15mm. We wanted a smaller scale for big games. So in despartion we sent off for 15, 12 mm and 10mm (we already have 6 mm and it is not now a prefered scale. After much deliberarion we went for 12mm.

While there is some step down 1/72 plastic to 15mm 1/72 usually not dead on size and 15mm may notbe that much smaller and not really any cheaper than 1/72 on vehicals platiuc and plastic is realy cheap for infntry.

12mm is usually accurate in plastic and is by definition a LOT smaller than 1/72 but still reasonable to look at from a distance. If you want storage, a big battalion only takes a small case. Scenery is smaller too. Allows lots more on the table but at some price in akward in urban enviromments, but we have got round this an can perhaps help here.

The range of figures is a bit limited but there is lots of WWII vehicle stuff around relatively cheap if you look for it. Scenary goes from cheap (us), to superb but expensive 'N' Guage railway stuff. 10 mm smaller again and has lots of devotees. To us it is too small. By volune (which is how you percive it its only about 60% of 12mm. very noticeable.

Last word. There is a new range of 15mm WWII plastic that is accurate 15mm 1:100 which is significantly smaller than a lot of 20mm and 15mm figures. It is also relativey cheap.

In the end its up to you but I would say look at Minifigs 12mm and 1/144 stuff on Ebay to see if you could live with it. At MG whe are scaleing back our 1/72 stuff as 1/144 will do all but the smallest skirmish games well, takes way less space and allows awsome battlion level games on a 6 by 4.

Questions you need to answer;
1) Do I want to expand what I have.
2) Will the space saving be significant to make a difference?

If you want significantly more, and do not have the space then switching might be an idea. If you are roughly where you want to be then Q2 needs a good hard look at.

This comes down to foot print, and its worthwhile before investing the time money and time (yes time twice, you have to paint the s) in getting together some research, finding out footprints etc. If you take the commonly accepted scales of 1/72 and 1/100 for 20mm and 15mm then a bit of maths tells you will save about a quarter – a 7m20 long vehicle is 100mm in 20mm and 72mm in 15mm.

Heightwise you probably wont save much because boxes are fixed height, and you will probably not going to be able to buy new boxes of the right height to change that much.

It also depends on what size battle you are doing. Skirmish/Platoon stick with 20mm. If you have the urge to command battalions and regiments then you might want to start again.

OTHER OPTIONS

Have you looked at the storage? Can you get more layers in the same height?

I use Really Useful Boxes for virtually all my wargame storage (they even become a quick tidy paint station)

link

Those pics should give you an idea of size. The 9 litre and 4 litre hold A4, and you can get 2 and 4 of the 15 compartment 'Hobby Trays' you can see in those photos. (The paint box has a lipped 'stationary tray' at the top so as to allow for the height of the paint bottles)

My 20mm fit 9 to a compartment – compartments are 60mm square by 30mm high. Anybody slightly over 30mm can go in the top tray, as there is room under the lid (I have a man holding a PIAT vertically in the crook of his arm, so the nose is slightly over 30mm, ditto 10mm cavalry standard bearers).

The 9l boxes are 16cm high, but when you stack its effectively 15cm, because of the lip- they fit together a little like Lego (not tightly though). Plus the handles lock the lid in place. The boxes are strong and waterproof, and can be stacked easily.

The best place to get them is Hobbycraft (much cheaper than Staples) though my local one often has a shortage of trays. They had 9 recently, so I bought 8 (no boxes, I can always get them!) Sunjester said 'I wondered why they only had one left…' (which he of course bought). Trays are £3.00 GBP, the 9l box £6.00 GBP

You may find that the 4 trays means extra storage in the same height.

10mm
I'm a big fan on 10mm, as other posts here will attest. They are easy to paint and you get a lot for your money, so you can afford to go en masse. I base 3 WW2 to a 30mm square base.

Drop an email to Leon at Pendraken. There is someone in Somerset who does a lot of 10mm, and if he is close you might be able to sneak a sample pack into his next order to save the postage – 10 infantry are £1.35 GBP, tanks £2.60 GBP each, but P&P is 5% MIN £2.00 GBP

Fred – Pendraken do LOADS of non WW2 (League of Augsberg, anyone?) as my Romans, ECW, WSS, and ACW will attest too.

Woth a note lots of folk use Pendragon 10mm infantry as 12mm. I have seen games at 12mm where they have been used and they are about the same size as Minifigs 12mm.

"Heightwise you probably wont save much because boxes are fixed height, and you will probably not going to be able to buy new boxes of the right height to change that much."

Well, as I said. My 20mm stuff only fits in full height boxfiles, my 15mm stuff all goes in half height ones.

A 100% increase, plus the 15mm vehicles are shorter and narrower. My 20s are on bases up to 50mm wide and 80mm deep or more, whereas the 15s are typically on bases 30-35mm wide and 60mm deep, another 100% space saving.

So I get four times as many 15mm vehicles in the same space as the 20s.

RUBs are OK but I find you get a lot of wasted vertical space in them because of the interlocked lid design, standard boxfiles are much more efficient, particularly if you build extra internal shelves for small scale stuff. I've got three layers of 2mm into a half height boxfile.

You can probably tell I've not been allowed to expand out of 'my' toy room…..

Every time I've tried getting out of my comfort zone for miniatures (Epic for smaller scale or Inquisitor for larger scale), I can't keep my focus long enough to complete the project. I end up wasting time and money on it. I've since decided that 28mm is the only scale for me. I live in a condo with very limited space, so I have to keep my projects under tight control.

You can probably tell I've not been allowed to expand out of 'my' toy room…

I don't consider that a bad idea, honestly. I plan on having a place with one bedroom extra that's going to be my hobby space. I have two big desks, one will be in there.

And I don't intend on allowing myself to expand my minis and terrain outside that space.

Fred – Pendraken do LOADS of non WW2 (League of Augsberg, anyone?) as my Romans, ECW, WSS, and ACW will attest too.

They do some, but nothing like the ranges you can get in 15mm and 28mm. Trapezuntine Byzantines? I looked at doing a Achaemenid Persian army in 10mm recently for a change, but didn't due to lack of all the figures I wanted in 10mm.

Apart from the obvious problem of range compression on the table top; Yes! 20mm beats 15mm. Much more satisfaction and flexibility in the models and figures. I've played FOW with 20mm figures and it works quite nicely for a quick game.

Sorry Martin, didn't pick up on your post. I do find with RUBs are just the right height- 10mm march muskets fit nicely in the same space as 20mm WW2.

My 1:300 Moderns are in the thin box files

RUBs work for me – horses for courses

"And I don't intend on allowing myself to expand my minis and terrain outside that space."

Yes, it is useful to have to some boundaries around the storage problem. That is partly why I only buy novels in ebook form now, leave precious shelf space for my military history books.

Yup space/storage/play boundaries are why I am dropping 28mm WW2 projects and just modifying my 20mm projects to replace.

Far too much 20mm to consider changing to 15mm and 20mm is more flexible for the type of games I wish to play.

Starting from scratch then both scales have good attributes .Not much between them for me.

However changing from 20 to 15 is going to be costly and then of course the scenery which some may need replacing. On the whole from what I have seen 15mm is played on the same size boards as 20mm so in the board dept not much saving there. There is a slight space saving when it comes to storage of vehicles and so some slight advantage there. I would be tempted to spend any money on what you would need to replace your existing figures on a new garden shed and store them in there out of the way .
That IMO would keep everyone happy .

Garden sheds have spiders :(

lol fair play Tim!