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"Ogre Miniatures Status?" Topic


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Paint it Pink24 Mar 2014 5:35 a.m. PST

I've posted some comments about the current Ogre miniatures situation on my blog here:

link

Covert Walrus24 Mar 2014 2:39 p.m. PST

Good points, Paint It Pink. My only complaint is why the miniatures are not getting adequate runs when they are produced, though.

Hombre24 Mar 2014 4:15 p.m. PST

Yes, plastic would not be cheaper.

I'm not sure what side you're on with point 3 (start your own casting company) because the argument reads better if it were SJG doing the creation of a new miniatures division, but it's written as if it would be a 3rd party doing it, which is already covered by points 1 & 2.

I'm going to disagree with your assessment on contract casting and licensing, because it doesn't match my experiences (I've been on both sides of the fence of both scenarios), and leave it at that.

I have a good-sized collection of Ogre minis (lots of stuff in unopened cassettes, some still even in original shrink wrap, plus another 15 or so Ogres, unpainted/unassembled). I'm going to sell it all.

The whole thing is disheartening because Ogre could easily be one of the bigger properties in SF. Just have to get everyone to quit looking at it as "It's just a 30-yr old $2 USD board game! Anything more isn't really Ogre!"

Captain Gideon24 Mar 2014 5:50 p.m. PST

Hombre I would be interested in some of your OGRE minis would it be possible to get a list of what you have?

Coelacanth193824 Mar 2014 9:51 p.m. PST

I can see the Combine missile crawler is out of print and the buildings will probably sell out before I'm working again.
I've been hit hard by this economy these last few years and I've managed to hang onto only a few things, like my Ogre minis. I'm really beginning to wonder why I bother lugging around anything by Steve Jackson when he treats his faithful fans like crap?

Paint it Pink25 Mar 2014 6:03 a.m. PST

@ Hombre: I'm looking for Ogre miniatures to complete my collection too.

Please email me at:

Ashley (at) Apnix. demon. co. uk

Take out spaces and replace at, as I have a little list and wonder if we can come to some arrangement whereby you can fill it? Assuming you will ship to the UK and take PayPal of course.

Caesar25 Mar 2014 6:04 a.m. PST

One of the problems is that SJG doesn't seem interested in supporting it.

Paint it Pink25 Mar 2014 6:45 a.m. PST

My speculation is that it is seen as too much effort for the amount of profit it generates, and is outside their core business model of selling paper/card products.

I have no special insider knowledge to support this comment. It's just an opinion.

Hombre25 Mar 2014 11:50 a.m. PST

Having a stock of minis that are already done and paid for, pulling the line because you're "not making money on them," and planning on doubling the prices when you do decide to bring them back, doesn't seem like a recipe for making money.

The fundamental problem is that the line is old and tired. *Most* people who want minis already have them. The Ogres themselves are the only things that should stay (and the buildings/structures). Everything else should be tossed.

I've worked with a few licenses, tried to work with a few more. I've had companies try to set rates that, well, how to put this… They want to set the MSRP and they want to set what the license is. They want to collect all the profit while doing no work, and I would be doing the work for free out of the goodness of my heart. I generally take that as an indication that they really don't want to deal with a licensee, and that's their prerogative. I think that 20% of something is better than 100% of nothing, but not everyone agrees.

While I won't say that that was my experience with SJG, I will say that there was a very strong vibe of not wanting to deal with licensees. The phrase, "It's Steve's baby" was used quite a bit.

A better solution would be for someone to come up with funds and just buy the rights outright and go from there.

Gideon… Didn't you just say you listed a ton of Ogre stuff on Ebay? Anyway…

I have:
Deleted by Moderator

None of it is painted or assembled or even had the flash removed. All the boxes still have their sides taped shut. I'm keeping the pocket editions to myself, for now.

I've shipped to you before, Ashley. How's my Monster?

I expect a mod to come thru and delete this, since it's really not the place, and I'm fine with that. But the question was asked and, honestly, I don't care to send out a bunch of emails saying the same thing. I'm lazy like that.

MrAverage25 Mar 2014 3:23 p.m. PST

Hombre, you're right on the money. The line is played and has limited mileage, if any, and a lot to compete with. But I don't buy the indirect narrative that's been going along with this about the greedy fans trying to get something for nothing, and not understanding the pain of running a small business. I'm a builder and I know when a contractor is trying to price themselves out of a job they don't feel like doing. There's no recrimination there – it's a legit move. But you have to be ready for people to call you on it, and the defensiveness on the subject from those who know is unconvincing.

If they "weren't making any money" they shouldn't have written a check their butts couldn't cash by promising to put the minis back in print, then more than doubling the price. Everyone knows that things cost money and nobody was trying to put SJG out of business or to co-opt Steve's Baby. Nostalgic people just saw that minis are being made by one-man shops at reasonable prices and felt stiffed, which is natural. I think everyone's adult enough to know that minis aren't part of SJGs business model, and that Steve is going to hold onto the Ogre property like grim death. But frankly, as much as I love Ogre and as thrilled as I am to have and play ODE, it's thirty years past its time. Throwing the matter back at the consumer who Just Doesn't Get It was just guaranteed to leave a sour taste in everyone's mouth, and they should have known that. Capitalism is customer-driven, and if what you deliver is not what your customers have been led to expect, they're going to be upset.

I hasten to add that even if someone DID license or buy the rights to make the minis, THEY wouldn't be able to make money on it, because SJG has held the property dormant for so long that it now looks past it compared to what other, newer companies are able to produce at a fraction of the cost, vide: Oddzial Osmy, Khurasan, Plasmablast, Microworld Games, Darkest Star, C in C, Ground Zero Games – the list goes on. Once they made the Shockwave figures, the line would basically be over and done with – there's a built-in ceiling to how far it can go, especially when the game is based on such a simple unit-for-unit matchup in the mathematics of the play mechanics: there's just not that many combinations that can happen with the four basic statistics before the game succumbs to super-units and power creep. The rest would just be reshuffling of the same basic functions, or maybe making new kinds of the same thing (nova Brasilian GEVs, Chinese Heavy Tanks, and so on). But even then there's a built-in upper limit and without room to expand the line would die off again.

Captain Gideon25 Mar 2014 4:36 p.m. PST

Hombre yes I did put a bunch of OGRE minis but these are my extra's which I have enough of.

I would be interested in your OGRE Mk IV,OGRE Mk VI and one of your Dopps with these I can complete my OGRE set one other item the OGRE Ninja I'm interested in as well.

You can email me at yamamoto87(at)Hotmail(dot)com just replace the at and dot.

We can then talk price.

Captain Gideon25 Mar 2014 8:56 p.m. PST

Hombre after looking thru your list again there's a few more items I'd like to get so please email me.

Thanks

Coelacanth193825 Mar 2014 10:33 p.m. PST

Maybe Jackson should just open source the minis.

Paint it Pink26 Mar 2014 4:40 a.m. PST

@ Hombre: I've shipped to you before, Ashley. How's my Monster?

Still waiting for me to get around to making it up. Been a bit distracted setting myself up to be a full time author. You can catch up with my writing stuff here:

ashleyrpollard.blogspot.co.uk

I would like to have off you:

1x PE hardened command post (resin)
2x light artillery drone
1x Ogre Vulcan
1x Ogre Mk V
Set 1 Convoy (shrink wrapped)

If the 1x Combine heavy drone is the miniature that goes with the Vulcan then I'll have that too.

Are the following the Pan Euro, or Combine versions?

2x laser tower (resin)
2x laser turret (resin)

If Combine I'll have them also.

email: Ashley(at)apnix(dot)demon(dot)co(dot)uk

Sorry I don't seem to have your email on record, how remiss of me. Good to see you here too. Let me know the score and we will do the PayPal thing together.

AndrewGPaul26 Mar 2014 8:54 a.m. PST

From my point of view, the Ogre minis are simply not very good. The basic shapes are good enough – especially the Ogres themselves – but the detailing is poor. Looking at the RAFM blister on the previous page and comparing to something from Hawk Wargames, Dark Realm, Oblivion or the various companies now making 6mm sci-fi, the Ogre minis are very bland.

I don't know what sort of future Ogre has in any format, though; as I understand it, the Designers' Edition is a one-off with no ongoing product in the future. If there was to be non-special edition of Ogre for sale in the future, then I would have thought a plastic sprue or two – a mark 3 and 5 plus a selection of tanks and whatnot – would be achievable, even if they were in the soft plastic used for most boardgames. The Ogre world looks interesting enough, even if the setting perhaps needs updated from the 80s, to be a viable game setting for a miniatures game to compete with the likes of Dropzone Commander, Epic or Critical Mass. With the main combatants being AIs, there's even room for an interesting exploration of cyber-warfare on the battlefield, a la Infinity. There's not many games where you may choose to deliberately take a force of smaller more obsolete units because they're less likely to be reprogrammed on the fly by the enemy. grin

Ultimately, though, SJG don't want to be a miniatures company, and would rather release another Munchkin expansion. If that makes money, fair enough, but it's a waste of a good property.

Captain Gideon26 Mar 2014 10:07 a.m. PST

Hombre here's what I'd like to get if at all possible:

OGRE NINJA
OGRE MK IV
OGRE MK VI
2-DOPPS
1xCOMBINE HVY DRONE(if avaliable)
8xCOMBINE SUPER HVY TANKS
1xOGRE VULCAN(if avaliable)

yamamoto87(at)Hotmail(dot)com

Let me know what you want and we can do PayPal as well.

Paint it Pink26 Mar 2014 2:02 p.m. PST

BTW: SJG did an update on theri KS page here:

link

Relevant bit is:

Right now you will not find the miniatures there. We're still adjusting our pricing. (snip) (Incidentally, on the first day W23 was open with the new cart, some of the miniatures were in it at crazy high prices. Bug bug bug. (snip)

Artraccoon26 Mar 2014 4:28 p.m. PST

So how many plush Munchkin Duck of Gloom dice bags have to be sold to be profitable? LOL!

Holden8831 Mar 2014 9:04 a.m. PST

I too am attempting to round out a partial collection.

Hombre I'm interested in the Set 4: PE Gev's and/or the Deluxe GEV PE box.

Email: holden11138 at gmail DOT com

Many thanks

Hombre01 Apr 2014 1:34 p.m. PST

I got laid off right after I posted that list. I'm going to just start posting things up piecemeal on ebay. Normally I wouldn't do that, but my options are a little more limited now. Sorry to disappoint anyone.

MrAverage02 Apr 2014 11:50 a.m. PST

They're back up, and the going price for a single GEV or like unit is now $7. USD Unless that's another typo, I think that pretty well wraps it up as far as SJ Games is concerned.

link

Hombre02 Apr 2014 1:24 p.m. PST

Of course. The one time I actually need the money. Well, good for SJG, good for everyone else. I *just* finished listing everything. Time to kill the listings now. Drat.

MrAverage02 Apr 2014 3:46 p.m. PST

I'd keep them up. With the going rate for new ones so high, undercut SJG by just a little and you'll still pull a decent profit.

Artraccoon02 Apr 2014 6:19 p.m. PST

At those prices, the whole Ogre miniatures issue has become insulting. SJG has managed to make the price point of Ironwind Metals look cheap, and GW look generous. If I wanted to be financially bum-raped over the cost of minis, I could do that over at Ebay…and I'd at least get a thank you there.

Another point…no way to make the miniature line profitable, but somehow Ogre totes and shot glasses were worth the expense of production. Yeah, Ogre fans want those items not minis.

Sigh…the taste of ashes.

MrAverage02 Apr 2014 6:56 p.m. PST

At first I wondered it it wasn't an April Fool's joke, which they're notorious for. But then the price stayed there. So like, yeah, it's officially 400% the price of C-in-C, and 250% of Plasmablast (even factoring in the exchange rate penalty for ordering in Euros from an American bank). And something approaching 200% the price of the most detailed and complex Microworld Games offerings. What a genuine bummer for the fans, and as I mentioned above, the rather snippy narrative that's gone alongside this about the customers being selfish and not thinking about the company's profit margin – yeah well they can shove it. What's the profit margin on zero sales? Which from the looks of it is really the response they're trying to elicit anyway. That way they can kill the line, say it was because the customers were unreasonable, and get back to printing Pyramid logos on shot glasses or pencil tins and Munchkin card boxes or whatever.

I was particularly irritated by the response Ashley from Paint It Pink got to her rather hopeful provocation on the SJG forum. I love the Designer's Edition, and am glad I have it – a brilliant love note to the fans, who've been unshakably loyal for forty years. On that point, no question, a total triumph. But to the fans of Ogre Miniatures, well… this is really sticking it to them, and I can't help but feel soured by that.

Zephyr102 Apr 2014 8:03 p.m. PST

Disappointing. Oh well, I've got a lot of pieces of paper with Pyramid logos on them that SJG won't be ever be seeing, since he doesn't seem interested in them…. ;-)

Paint it Pink03 Apr 2014 2:37 a.m. PST

@ Mr Average: Thank you for the shout out.

I walked away from the thread for the weekend as anything I might have said would have got me a slap on the wrist.

Captain Gideon04 Apr 2014 7:09 p.m. PST

Well for myself I was pleased because I finally got an OGRE Mk VI thru Warehouse 23 for $39.95 USD which was a decent price.

Unlike earlier this year when they had the Mk VI going for about $60.00 USD.

For me this was important and now my set of OGRE's is complete.

Thanks Warehouse 23 and SJG.

Paint it Pink05 Apr 2014 3:39 a.m. PST

But you know want a Doppelsoldner, your really, really do. :-)

Caesar05 Apr 2014 7:12 a.m. PST

It is a company that prides itself on mediocrity, these days.

Paint it Pink05 Apr 2014 12:54 p.m. PST

I would say it's a company that has to look to the bottom line to survive in these difficult times.

Zakalwe6405 Apr 2014 7:46 p.m. PST

I once wrote an article on doing ogre minis withou ogre minis and it ia stil up on the SJG website.

These days, like Mr. Average, I'm going 3mm for mu Ogre needs. O8's new line is the shiz and, as Mr. A. points out, Plasmablast's new Marhaf faction will make great substitute ogres.

Think about it: for the price of one SJG heavy tank, you can get 15 O8 heavy tanks.

Caesar06 Apr 2014 5:31 a.m. PST

Paint it Pink,

I am actually less referring to the miniatures and more to their general status of charging premium prices for mediocre products and focusing almost all their attention on a single product line (which may make them enough to survive on but doesn't take them anywhere).

Captain Gideon06 Apr 2014 9:10 a.m. PST

You're right Paint it Pink a Doppelsoldner would be nice to add to my collection and if I had the extra cash I would get it.

But getting 2 Cruise Missile Crawlers would be nice as well.

I take that back I only need 1 of the Crawlers the Combine one to be exact as I have the PE one but one small problem I don't have the Missile so any ideas as to what I could use as a replacement?

Paint it Pink06 Apr 2014 9:31 a.m. PST

Picture of primed PE cruise missiles here:

link

Paint it Pink07 Apr 2014 12:21 p.m. PST

Update on W23 they are now taking orders for what are likely to be the last round of casting for Ogre miniatures, before they do whatever they decide they are going to do with the range.

So if you need something to complete your collection, now is the time to go and place the order.

mdauben07 Apr 2014 2:12 p.m. PST

Good for those that only need a few things to round out their collection. For me, its the final death knell of Ogre. I simply need too many miniatures to order them all at once, so if I can't count of them being available for at least the next year so I can spread my purchases out, I won't buy anything.

I guess they have to do what they think is best for their company, but is sucks for the fans of the game. :-(

Zephyr107 Apr 2014 2:47 p.m. PST

Wow, 6 bucks for 6 x 1/300 infantry figures. huh?

Is there much of a difference between the SJG and the RAFM Ogres (Mk3's & 5's)?

Artraccoon07 Apr 2014 6:43 p.m. PST

At the current "range killing" prices, I won't be buying any of their Ogre products. Other folks will be getting my 6mm SF business, folks that have, somehow, managed to make a profit from what SJG can't.

This situation has also encouraged me to learn sculpting and miniature making techniques. My notebooks are full of SF warmachine designs, including large cybertanks, all just waiting to be made. Such a plan may take awhile to execute, and other projects come first, but it may be worthwhile to follow through.

Zephyr107 Apr 2014 7:50 p.m. PST

This is a good place to learn about sculpting:

TMP link

;-)

Artraccoon10 Apr 2014 7:55 a.m. PST

Thanks Zephyr1, that looks like another part of TMP I'll be checking out.

davesimpson10 Apr 2014 8:43 a.m. PST

Voilá! 3 1/600 scale ogres being escorted by a company of Heavy Tanks.

picture

What you see in this picture cost a total of USD 16.00.

Have fun playing with your 40 dollar Ogres, people!

Captain Gideon10 Apr 2014 11:26 a.m. PST

Dave that's a very nice group of armored vehicles you got there.

Just speaking for myself I have 23 OGRES of all types and I've paid about $40.00 USD for only 2 of them a Ninja OGRE and an OGRE Mk VI the rest I got used.

But I do see your point about the cost regarding OGRE and if I didn't have any OGRE minis than the 500 plus number I have now I might go your route with the smaller scale.

But the fact is I already have my OGRE miniatures and so there's no turning back.

davesimpson10 Apr 2014 11:29 a.m. PST

More Marhafi ogres, this one in the Peoples' Revolutionary Army of Salvation colors, backed by two platoons of PRAS Heavy Tanks.

picture

davesimpson10 Apr 2014 11:33 a.m. PST

Captain Gideon, I certainly wouldn´t want to take sales away from SJG and obviously those people who are already heavily invested in 6mm Ogre shouldn't switch.

But…

3mm is a great scale for those folks thinking about starting Ogre Miniatures.

Furthermore, it's cheap enough that you can buy into it IN ADDITION to 6mm, in order to make a small travelling Ogre Minis set.

Seriously, once Marcin gets something like a GEV and a Howitzer out there, 40 USD will get you enough figures to field everything you need for basic Ogre and then some. 80 USD will get you GEV.

It's certainly cheaper, easier and quicker than taking up Zephyr's suggestion of learning to sculpt.

mdauben11 Apr 2014 9:51 a.m. PST

At the current "range killing" prices, I won't be buying any of their Ogre products.

I toyed with the idea of just buying the actual Ogres themselves, and filling the OpFor with 6mm scifi minis from some other, cheaper line. Just buying one of each of the 10 Combine and PanEuro Ogre miniatures would cost over $350 USD

"Range Killing" indeed. :-(

parrot150011 Apr 2014 3:47 p.m. PST

Man, I'm dreaming of a day when Reaper does up just the Ogres and Fencers….in the Bones material. And sells me 57 of them.

Covert Walrus16 Apr 2014 9:15 p.m. PST

And the Vulcans and Ninjas have all sold out.

So someone is buying them at that price.

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