"Colours bourne by Prussian Reserve Regiments?" Topic

Dear All,

Posed a straightforward question by my mate Provost not so long ago, I find myself going in ever decreasing circles…

W J Rawkins baldly states, in his excellent The Prussian Army 1808-15, Anschluss Publishing 1979, p. 38, that the Reserve Regiments did not receive colours until late 1815.

Dr Stephen Summerfield, in Vol 2 of Prussian Infantry 1808-1840, Partizan Press 2009, agrees and indeed gives the various Allerhocste Kabinett Ordnung (AKO) dates authorising and recording the issue of these Colours, the earliest, for the 8th Reserve Regt, 28th August 1815, and the latest for the 5th RR – 11 November 1815 (Good day for a parade!) The bulk of the regts got theirs in September 1815.

(I refer to the initial Reserve Regimental numbering, of 1st July 1813, BTW, not the various reshufflings thereafter every time the war office cat sneezed…)

However, knowing the gap between Regulations and operational expediency as I do, and now also knowing something of the obsession of historians for scraps of paper (if it wasn't written down it didn't happen), I wonder if its not possible that in the action packed period from the summer of 1813 to 1815, these Regiments did not recourse to unofficial Colours or standards?

I wonder if the very fact that we have rich surviving primary sources telling us that they didn't receive official Colours from Berlin until late 1815 hasn't blinded us to the possibility that provisional colours might have been issued before, but that these particular scraps of paper haven't survived?

We know, of course, the Landwehr Battalions, very much junior in the Army List, happily carried a variety of unofficial Colours bestowed upon them by Provincial authorities or private organisations…

We also know that at least a couple of the Reserve Regiments captured enemy colours in the field. The 3rd RR, for example, took that of the 7th Wurtemmburgers at Dennewitz. Is it too much of a stretch to suppose that, on presenting their Brigade or Division commander with the captured colours, a resourceful General with an eye to morale would not have returned the compliment, if only with some sort of provisional Banner or Standard?

Bear in mind also that during this period, full of battles filled with blinding smoke and scared conscripts, that Colours played a real role in guiding and rallying a Battalion in action…

Does anyone know of such tales, or have any evidence of such field expedients?

Sparker: not a great deal (or even a great reference) but Ospreys Flags of the Napoleonic Wars (2) p 25 comments "The Reserve and Landwehr units did not have flags according to official regulations but nevertheless there is some evidence that many of these units did carry flags. These flags were either made privately or in some cases may have been provided by local authorities. A simply black flag bearling a large white landwehr cross was a popular pattern, but some quite intricate designs were produced." Sadly, the examples of 'intricate designs' given are both of Landwehr units, and the source of the 'evidence' is not stated (it is only a MAA title, after all).

Hopefully this is some slight help though?

Being an historian, but not one who believes that without an official document it didn't happen, I'd suggest that by definition 'provisional' and 'unofficial, unsanctioned' issues of anything, and especially something as sacred as unit colours, is unlikely to leave a paper trail. I'd be suspicious if it did, frankly.

Thanks Gents, useful. Langobard, whilst I don't have the Osprey Vol 2, your quote will suffice for a defence against rivet counters…

Re the paper trail, whilst I agree that there's unlikely to be any official paperwork, since with these things it never does to disturb the pencil necks ashore, someone attacking my theory could suggest that if the use of these 'unofficial colours' was widespread, a letter about the presentation of such a standard, perhaps at a civic function, ought to have survived…for at least one of these 12 Regiments…

I have read plenty of memoirs, regimental histories and the like on the Prussian army, came accross some irregular Landwehr flags and standards, but never something similar to "A simply black flag bearling a large white landwehr cross was a popular pattern". As long as no sources for this statement are given, I take it for gossip ;-)

Likewise, no flags of the reserve regiments. I doubt there were any. A flag or standard did cost some money, and the flags and standards carried in the Landwehr were presented to them by their home towns. But who would pay such a flag for a unit which did not have any local tradition ?

As for the colours playing a real role in guiding and rallying a Battalion in action, the reserve regiments prove well that it could be done without. Or the fusileer battalions, which did receive colours only after the wars, and still were able to manoeuver on the battle field. Or the Landwehr battalions, which had to lay down their unofficial flags in September/October 1813.

Direction in the infantry was taken towards the colour bearer, however not by looking at the colour, but by keeping contact with the elbow into his direction. In the Lützow free corps infantry, I have found a reference that the NCO fulfilling the task of the colour bearer carried his musket very high on his left shoulder. Probably this was practice in all other battalions without flag, too.

Simple answer is that the RIR did not have flags and when converted to IR in 1815 receieved them after Waterloo.

As Oliver states, flags cost a great deal of money. Prussia had none. They also take time to paint.

Landwehr regiments before October 1813 may have had flags and these were presented by the towns or district so would likely have their emblems. Alas universal use of Landwehr crosses is wishful.
Stephen

I checked my notes and have to correct myself: the flag carried by the Landwehr battalion from the town Anklam (in Pomerania west of the river Oder, therefore it was incorporated as 2nd battalion in the 2. Kurmärkisches Landwehr-Infanterie-Regiment) was embroidered, black with a white Landwehr cross and the inscription: "Mit Gott für König und Vaterland !" (there is only this literal decription, no sketch of it).

It was handed over to the battalion by a small deputation of the town in the end of August or beginning of September 1813, and was carried but a few days, when the order arrived to lay down the Landwehr flags.

While all of the above may be "pravda" (truth), all my Prussian reserve regiments carry extra colors from their stammregiments. But then I've been known to have some French battalions with pre-1812 and some with post-1812 uniforms in the same 1813 battle.

But seriously, I would think that if the RIR's parent regular regiment had extra colors, the RIR might have been issued them.

Jim

But seriously, I would think that if the RIR's parent regular regiment had extra colors, the RIR might have been issued them.

No, there would have been an order, and there is no order recorded in the 1889 archival study by Lehmann on Prussian flags and standards.

On 10 May 1811 it was orderd that every infantry regiment should maintain 4 colours, but carry only 2 of them. A few days later, on 14 May 1811, it was ordered that these extra two colours should be sent to the next fortress.

On 28 March 1812, another order laid down that the six grenadier batallions each should receive one of these second colours of the musketeer battalions.

And when the 2. Garde-Regiment zu Fuß was formed, on 22 June 1813 its first battalion (former Normal-Infanterie-Bataillon) received one of the two extra colours of the 1. Garde-Regiment zu Fuß.

The 2nd battalion of the 2. Garde-Regiment zu Fuß (former 1st battalion of the Kolbergsches Infanterie-Regiment) had taken its colour with it. The new 1st battalion of the Kolbergsches Infanterie-Regiment received one of the two extra colours of this regiment instead.

These are the only documented cases of transfer of colours from the old twelve regiments, except that in 1815/16 their fusileer battalions also received an old colour from their respective regiment.

Of course this is the scientific point of view. Wargaming has its own necessities and prerogatives ;-)

I gave my Reserve Musketeer battalions an "iron cross" colour because it looks nice…

oliver has it.

when the flags went from 2 to 1 per battalion, most reserve battalions probably acquired one, then some of those were amalgamated and renumbered as second and third regiments after the original. Saying all that, I think most of my reserves have generic flags or copies of the original regiments mixed up.

Or the fusileer battalions, which did receive colours only after the wars, and still were able to manoeuver on the battle field

Well of course most manoevering performed by a Fusileer battalion would be in the Light Role, so a Colour would be a positive annoyance…British Light Regiments seldom took their Colours on campaign, for example, and the 95th's Colours were its Silver Bugles…

But seriously, I would think that if the RIR's parent regular regiment had extra colors, the RIR might have been issued them.

No, there would have been an order, and there is no order recorded in the 1889 archival study by Lehmann on Prussian flags and standards.

So very certain! So Major Disaster, CO X RIR, writes a note to Colonel Mustard, CO X IR, and says 'Sir, as you know those shiny arses in Berlin wont get around to issuing my heroes with a Colour until the middle of never – how about you send me one of your old ones and we'll take good care of it for you. Oh and by the way theres a wagonload of schnapps with your name on it enroute…'

You think a copy in duplicate is going post haste to Berlin?

most reserve battalions probably acquired one

Sounds like a distinct possiblity!

all my Prussian reserve regiments carry extra colors from their stammregiments.

Mine too. It just looks better. And my landwehr all have banners. The only ones who don't are the fusileers.

Likewise, my AWI fusiliers have bearskin caps.

Oliver, re your 'gossip' comment, normally I have no problem with this, though frankly a lot of MAA volumes are poorly referenced, and (like a fool) I looked at the back of the book for references. How silly of me. The references are listed on page 3. Sigh. Sadly, I do not speak/read German, but presume that Deutsches Soldatenjahrbuch (1960 to 1973 volumes), De Welt in Bilder. Historiche Fahnen (Album No 8) Heer & Tradition plates 4,5,6,8,12,14,20,24,&25 (for Prussia), F. Kaindl: Von Dem Gemalten Zu Den Gewebten Feldzeichen, and Schild-Verlad German flags through history (series of post cards) and F. Schirmer Das Cellar Soldatenbuch.

Those are the references that look German to me, so hopefully will give you the guide to the authors sources.

For the rest, as has been noted, I think we all agree there is no NEED for a battalion to carry a standard, but military pride is a strange thing. The French allowed their first bns to carry an Eagle and tricolour, the other bns were supposed to merely carry plain fanions that slowly became more and more elaborate…

The idea the RIR would stand by tamely following regulations while landwehr started carrying simply seems unlikely military psychology to me. (Please note: MAA 192 Prussian Reserve, Militia & Irregular Troops 1806-15) p22 & 23 for photos of flags for Silisian Militia from Sagan and Flag of Berlin Landsturm 3rd coy, 24th bn).

As I said, this is just MAA source material, but hopefully it is not just 'gossip' now?

The idea the RIR would stand by tamely following regulations while landwehr started carrying simply seems unlikely military psychology to me.

Me too!

The Prussian reserve regiments did not carry colours during the liberation wars in the field, when campaigning, on the other hand, seemingly a lot of wargamers like colours carried by those units, I suggest a plain red flag in Soviet style – or black – red and gold as for the Hambacher Fest, then it is evident that it is the wargamers choice.

What people – who cannot read any German – confuse is – yes there were colours made for Landwehr units, but then the King of Prussia stopped them getting carried during the war, and some were carried along in bagagge waggons.

So for those fanactic with detail, place such a colour inside a baggage waggon, folded up nicely in a special case.

;-)).

Smile, so we all agree that some Landwehr units carried inoffical flags and standards, and others not.

And that carrying a colour is not essential for manoeuvering. Otherwise the king would have issued flags or at least fanions to all his battalions.

And that colours and standards just look great.

As for the 13 new regiments formed on 1st July 1813 (the Brandenburgsches Infanterie-Regiment and reserve regiments nos. 1 to 12), the facts are:

1) colours were not authorised

2) contrary to the Landwehr, we don't have any reference in memoirs and regimental histories to the existence of one single colour carried in them

As someone once said: absence of evidence is no evidence of absence. But if we start to enrich the facts with imagination we leave the area of science. Which is fine, but we just shouldn't call it historically correct. And if new evidence turns up, of course I am ready to change my opinion.

So very certain!

Yes, Sparker. My reasons are:

1) as the king bothered to write orders which forbid flags and standards in the Landwehr, he would have written such orders for reserve battalions as well. That they are not reproduced in Lehmann's extremely thoroughly study means for me, such orders did not exist.

2) all the third and fourth flags of the line have been accounted for and we can tell exactly where they were kept. (This doesn't exclude, theoretically, that they were tacitly returned to the depot after the campaign.)

Oliver, re your 'gossip' comment …

Langobard, no offence was intended, I meant the author of the book. But gossip reproduced somewhere in a book still remains gossip, even if it looks like fact.

The best sources for Prussian flags are Lehmann's Geschichte der preußischen Fahnen und Standarten, 2 vol., Berlin 1889 and Ewald Fiebig, Unsterbliche Treue, Berlin 1936.

I haven't access to the Deutsches Soldatenjahrbuch, which was published yearly and contains popular articles on German military throughout history. This might give some new info not found elsewhere, or just some compilations of well known facts. Die Welt in Bildern is an album of images which were put into cigaret packages for collecting them, of similar quality as the series of postcards published by Schild-Verlag. Heer und Tradition gives only the regular flags, as far as I know. Kaindl deals with Bavarian and Schirmer with Hanoverian flags and standards. Probably the Osprey author used all these works as sources for his illustrations.

And don't get me wrong. I can live perfectly well with reserve regiments carrying colours on the wargaming table. Colours and standards just look great.

Oliver, no offence was taken! I rarely look for references in MAA works, though I did in this instance as I realised that this would almost certainly be a 'references at ten paces' type topic, and then I found: 1, I looked for them at the wrong end of the book (clever of me) and 2.that I had no idea if I was even citing the correct references since the titles were in German!

As for the best references, I confess, I have taken the cowards way out in building my Prussian army: I'm painting a couple of brigades that have a line infantry regiment (10th and 11th) each with two landwehr regiments, so I don't have to worry about the RIR's. Cowardice, I know, but I take less headache medication this way :)

Yes thanks Oliver, your reasoning justifies your certainty, and I now accept that the balance of evidence would seem to confirm that these Regiments did indeed not carry any form of Colours or Standards during this period.

But of course you just know I shall be giving my reserve Regiments Colours!

Thanks all for your input and an interesting discussion.

What is more interesting is – that other nations issued colours for their Landwehr or National Guards, like Bavaria.

Even more, the Bavarian King granted those National Guard units – serving volunteerly outside of Bavaria to carry the Leibfahne of the regular units.

What a great discussion. Personally, I like to give my units flags, as my SYW Prussian and Austrian grenadier battalions show. But I never gave my 1813 RIR flags. I may do, one day.

Sparker, I can probably dig up some pre-1740 colours for your RIR, if you're interested in making the units a little more "personalised" (eg below).

Jim's use of the Stammregiment flags is the most "historically likely" way the units would have been given flags. Though having them carrying 100-year-old relics, as did some of the cavalry, also appeals.

Cheers.

Dal.

Thanks Dal! I have heard you're the authority on this subject so its great to have your input. Thanks for this Colour too, quite different!

Thanks for the undeserved compliment, mate, but the real authorities are Oli Schmidt and von Winterfeld. I'm just an opinionated dabbler (ie a wargamer).

The pre-1713 (and pre-1740) colours can be very attractive, Sparker, and who's to say that some unofficial flags weren't based on the "old rag" hanging in the local church?

Give us a yell when you get to the cavalry, mate. That's the real Prussian Napoleonics minefield. I don't think I've got all the answers (especially as regards the flag colours of the pre-1806 dragoon regiments Nr 3 or 6!), but I'm confident I've got more idea than Nash, Wise, Rawkins or Over.

Cheers.

Dal.

Wow! What athouroughly informative discussion. I have to confess that when I asked that dreaded question of Sparker a few weeks ago I never thought it would be this involved.
Thanks everyone for your input and thanks to Sparker for taking the time to nut this out for me!
I shall now have the War Office cat spayed.

This is a great discussion, I would like to toss in a few points to ponder from my position as U.S. Army Military Hisorian at least by duty positin and training.

"Modern Military History" since WWII has incorporated a very large slice of personnal interviews. This is often what Military History Detachments spend most of their time doing while in theater. We do this because a lot of stuff that seems normal right now will be lost in 20 years time (so certainly 200 years will lose some things) and we want to ensure that histories of current operations are better covered than most in the past were (letters home and official dispatches being notorious bits of self praise). So we will spend hours interviewing people about their experiences, uniforms, tactics and equipment (we don't need to talk about what there are written orders or manuals- we talk about the stuff not in the orders). It is amazing how much stuff our Soldiers do that higher commands don't know. That being said 21st century American Soldiers are not the same as early 19th Century Prussian soldiers.

Which leads me to my next point, Prussians were often noted as being well disciplined and obedient to orders. So orders from their king would carry a lot of weight. Also if you are expecting a battalion commander to "loan" you one of the colors he is accountable for without signing some document I think you would be mistaken. Especially if the normal Prussian penchant for detail is taken into account I think there would be some paper that stated: "I Colonel Mueller give to Lieutenant Colonel Schmidt the second battalion color for his unit to carry, defend and return covered in glory upon issue of a new flag for his unit or the completion of the current hostilities."

As noted in a post above the French Emperor ordered units to rid themselve of flags and that didn't go exactly as he ordered either.

As for me I haven't painted any RIR yet, but I do like colors with my units so I am likely to do what makes me happy with my units, and the devil take the deatils. After all this isn't really history this is a game. Sparker if I were you I would do exacty what makes you happy with these units.

I like colours as well ;-)), but not for units which did not carry them – I cannot understand the attraction of such a dull Prussian 1813 army, when as a wargamer I have the choice to do the superb Prussian army of 1806 – please note – also there the Füsilier Battailone did not carry colours as well.

As for the discipline of the Prussian army – then – it is quite enlightening to read the order book of the 2nd Guard foot regiment and how much trouble the colonel had to discipline his soldiers (wearing no neck stocks or other than regulations neck stocks).

As for colours – I agree that it would be pretty evident to all brigade commanders – if a unit – not allowed to carry them in the field – would show then in battle.
The unit commander would certainly risk his carreer and being court martialed.

If you read through memoirs of soldiers of the Napoleonic period, the nice thing is, to see that people then were as different in their characters and views as they are today.

Some would follow orders to the letter, others would tend to be more risk takers.

For example, notwithstanding all the reports of Landwehr flags and standards being laid down in autumn 1813 after the king's explicit orders, we know of one inofficial standard carried until at least late 1814.

At Ziesar, on 24 August 1813, Rittmeister von Erxleben of the 5. Kurmärkisches Landwehr-Kavallerie-Regiment took a "very simple, dark red" French flag (a battalion fanion, I presume). According to a report of 1st October 1814, it had been carried up to this day in the squadron – with permisson of Generallieutenants v. Hirschfeld and Generalmajor v. Bimarck.

great news so the 5. Kurmärkisches Landwehr Kavallerie Regiment did carry a red colour – so my assumption red colours Soviet style, so highly specualtive were not that far off the mark ;-)).

Otherwise – exceptions proove the rule.

SO which do we use?
1) The fourth flags that perhaps the 4th reserve battalions could have officially/unofficially carried who were to become the cadre for the specific RIR,
2) The color from the military hall of the the military base the RIR was based out of as DAl GAVAN alludes too
or
3) Some created one to that of the landwehr?

Also
the Q regarding why did the King order the landwehr stds down?
Was it perhaps to the strife it created with the RIR having incomplete or absence of colors. That once this was resolved the landwehr perhaps re-field their banner,s once the order became relaxed with the issue resolving it's self with one of or all three of the above?
This seem plausible?!? Yes -No?

Hmmmm I need to finish my RIR and landwehr soon.
Time to start another post?
MG

Just spitballing, but the king may have thought they didn't deserve them yet. I believe Napoleon didn't issue colors willy-nilly, the regiment had to do something first?