"Waterloo and the Netherlands troops" Topic

Volume 3 is due for May 2014!

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Good news Erwin… Can't wait!

Valentine 14% discounts currently!

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The brave defence of Bijlandt's brigade against D'Erlon's attack, which they started behind the Ohain road from the beginning and how the brigade kept fighting until late in the afternoon

Did they really start behind the Chemin d'Ohain?

Yes, they did!

very interesting

I know!
That is exactly the point: adding hitherto 'unknown' material into the Waterloo account, that was before only / or is accessable for those reading Dutch (or the want to learn this language).

Thus, an even more exciting history.

I'll be honest. I am so glad to see someone from the Dutch/Belgian/Netherlands/Low Countries (and a thousand other titles for what is now across the North Sea) actually take some pride in their armies' achievements in 1815. This has been sadly lacking.

"British" contemporary writers are notorious for ridiculing anyone not in scarlet (and, I feel, grossly exaggerating their own role, as that was how you gained brevet promotion, without expense). But in Belgium or the modern Netherlands 1815 is ignored as well.

Monuments are let go to ruin. Militarism is not fashionable….. which may be understandable in countries that have seen occupation and war on their own fields. Nice to see something beyond "Bylandt's Brigade has broken, plug the gap will you?"

My generation grew up on an image of folk in blue running at the first shot. In 1970 approx I converted an Airfix Rifleman in 35 mm scale (or were they 32mm?) to a Belgian (using the Guard's Belgic shako) running like mad (mix one standing leg with one kneeling) and looking back over his shoulder. This image needs to be corrected……keep up the good work.

and, I feel, grossly exaggerating their own role, as that was how you gained brevet promotion, without expense

A sad and ungentlemanly slur on long dead soldiers who cannot defend themselves. Do you have any evidence as to the dishonest motives you attribute to them?

And please don't suggest that a Waterloo Veteran subsequently getting a Brevet promotion in the peace time army to leapfrog Seniors without his battlefield experience is evidence that he fabricated accounts of his contribution! May I request that if you do not have evidence that an Officer's account of his actions is at odds with other accounts or evidence, you withdraw this sad comment?

here we go again deadhead, I think you are grossly exaggerating the point you want to make, its not necessary. The Allied victory at Waterloo was a team effort, led by Wellington. Some troops were better than others, fact!

Well, please, I was just announcing my book! ;-)

(Discussion can be held at the general board I suppose, or later on here when you can comment on my book itself)

By the way, with celebrating 200 years of the Kingdom of the Netherlands (started November 2013) there actually is a lot of attention for this whole period of our national history.

Ok, I'll admit…apologies, I might just have exaggerated a bit (even grossly?). But I still am convinced that things were different in those days. In the Victorian era it became the thing to say "Oh, it was nothing, I just did my duty" and modesty and understatement remains a tradition to this day.

I am still left with the impression that some (admit it again, some,) did overplay their achievements and because, with the awful system that prevailed, this was the only way to be noticed. Shrinking violets …just shrank.

Hussey Vivian was ridiculed in his own life time for claiming to have won Waterloo single handed. Mercer spent years hounding senior folk regarding his successes that day…and sad reading it makes. His account of the day makes little sense, but is a great tale. Worse is the story
of the eagle of the Royals….give it to the poor corporal and stop that sad sequence of letters to the great and good seeking recognition, just because you are a captain. Ewart's account….OK he got an eagle, but how did he meet a lancer in the first charge?

I know this will raise more ire, for which apologies, but we must question "history" and accept that society and its mores have changed.

As for the book, all I said was how much I welcome this in acknowledging what the DBs did contribute. I hope you are right that there will be overwhelming enthusiasm in "The Low Countries" for the 200th anniversary and that will translate into investment into preserving what little is left to enjoy. Less sure about Belgium, than about further North East…..

Thank you deadhead for that apology, not for me but for the memory of all Waterloo veterans of all nationalities.

The Nineteenth century in many ways was one of arrant nationalism and jingoism, and it is a shame that not all of the accounts were as gracious in recognising the achievements of other contingents as Lord Wellington's. For example:

The troops of the 5th division, and those of the Brunswick corps, were long and severely engaged, and conducted themselves with the utmost gallantry. I must particularly mention the 28th, 42nd, 79th, and 92nd regiments, and the battalion of Hanoverians.

Whilst he mentioned only a handful of allied Generals by name, unfortunately he did not specifically mention those gallant Netherlands commanders who not only realised the importance of the Quatre Bras position, but acted swiftly and effectively upon their own initiative to establish a forward defence. In many ways the campaign could not have proceeded so well without their strategic perception. But recent works, including of course Erwins wonderfully detailed study have given them the recognition they deserve.

Can we get the writers and producers of Sharpe's Waterloo to apologize while were at it.

I hadn't realised they'd posted on this forum – must've missed that one…

Ok, I'll admit…apologies, I might just have exaggerated a bit (even grossly?). But I still am convinced that things were different in those days. In the Victorian era it became the thing to say "Oh, it was nothing, I just did my duty" and modesty and understatement remains a tradition to this day.

Your apology is appreciated deadhead, you are right about the Victorians and that we must always question history, I feel that's its attraction.

This far on I think we can take a more detached view. To me, it is one of the more remarkable facts of this campaign that the British, from some very senior people down, downplay and degradate the performance of the Netherlands army (whom they often refer to as "Belgians" regardless of where they came from). The most shocking to me was Kennedy (chief of staff to 3rd Division if I remember correctly) who, in his account of the battle, excluded the Netherlands troops on the basis that they were completely unreliable and played no meaningful part. There were no Netherlands troops in his part of the field, apart from some Nassauers – until Chasse's intervention aup t the end of the battle – so this seems to have been picked from fellow officers.

There's no point in being ashamed at this (though as a Englishman, I am) – it is an interesting fact that deserves explanation. It wasn't just a question of Victorian prejudices – it was clearly a factor amongst the men at the time. They were more generous (less disregarding) to their German allies, on the whole.

Everyone has an opinion and should be entitled to express it, particularly if they were on the battlefield at the time, like Kennedy, we were not. I'm sure Kennedy had good reason to say what he did, sadly we are not in any position to question him on why he said what he said, therefore we are just left with opinions. Its all very PC to congratulate everyone and forgive and apologise for underperformers. I don't know if the DB units were underperformers on the day, as individual soldiers I'm sure they weren't, but the DB units (excluding the Nassau) certainly did start the battle with a wargamers minus 1. That is why Wellington did not have high expectations for his DB units as he did have for his British units. In comparison to all the nations involved the DB practical contribution was relatively small, fact. Based on the reality of many factors the DB units started the battle as second rate, understandably.

Granted True Grit, but there is a discrepancy between the British opinion of the Netherlands units and their actual performance, and that is an interesting historical fact. It is clear that Wellington and senior British officers considered the men unreliable because they had fought for Napoleon previously. I think that was probably where it began.

Bylandt's brigade was badly mauled at Quatre Bras, but its regular units did not break, as is usually alleged (or that is my understanding). Chasse's division was kept out of the main deployment at the start – no doubt because of Wellington's low opinion of them. But he had to bring them into the line eventually, and they performed well enough when they did – defeating one part of the attack of the French Guard.

The Netherlands units did have a lot of militia in them (like the Hanoverians), which I guess was one reason for considering them second rate – and I would not put them on a par with the British Peninsular veterans.

I used one very wrong term when I said "exaggerated"…I think I meant "emphasised". The former means they made it all up. The latter that they felt forced for years after the battle to praise their own efforts…and many did, seeking the recognition they had been denied.

What was expected of the DBs? That they would run at best, or desert to the opposition at worst. Instead what was mostly a bunch of militia and reserve largely stood their ground (even if generally kept in the second line), saved the whole campaign at Quatre Bras and did contribute significantly to the closing action, as matthewgreen says.

The wargamers' minus 1 makes sense (I can only guess what that means, but I suspect not on a par with 95th). Indeed they started the campaign seen as underperformers. But dice play a big part in gaming I gather; on 16-18th June the DBs threw sixes……?

16-18th June the DBs threw sixes……?

Thats a great way of putting it!

LOL

We have to remember that deployment of divisions at Waterloo was also a consideration of how many losses they had taken at Quatre Bras. Many of the troops in the second line had given their all two days previously and that is why some of them were positioned where they were, unreliability was only part of the narrative.
Lets also remember that without Perponchers independant strategic decision on the 16th to station himself at the crossroads, and the hiolding action of the troops themselves, it is probably that Wellington would have lost his campaign right then and there.

Did some of the DB units perform below par? Undoubtly.
Did some of them perform perform way above what could have been expected given the circumstances? Also undoubted.

Bylandt's troops are an interesting case in point. I look forward to the release of Erwin's book so that people can debate the idea that they may have been behind the Ohain road from the beginning.

Thanks so far for all the interesting replies!!!!

Three more months to finish my manuscript ;-)
So far about halfway and having a critical look once more this weekend at some chapters on how the troops prepared during the morning, the first stages of the fighting for Hougoumont (with marvelous accounts from 3 Nassau soldiers & additional French ones!), and the start of the bombardment by the grand battery (as well as the Allied response, with some of Whinyates' rockets flying the opposite direction and disrupting the Netherlands 8th Hussars!)
Next…. d'Erlon's attack!

And meanwhile the Valentines day 14% DISCOUNT OFFER has been extended up to midnight of 17 February. 1815fieldarmy.nl

Please have a look at our wonderful discounts, as it is our national week to promote the printed book over here in Holland ;-)

Perhaps a fine chance to you all, before the Waterloo book is published?

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You know, except for Erwin, Ashenduke (and now me), the posters on this thread are all from the UK. I must say, you "Brits" are rather a class act …. you make your points strongly, yet manage to disagree as gentlemen should – with dignity, self-restraint, intelligence and respect for the other fellow.
Impressive, really quite impressive. Thank you for the example.

- Sasha

and some of us "Brits" even have an Irish passport, Alexandre. (Which still makes us part of the British Isles, but few of my compatriots would ever acknowledge that!)

I do appreciate your comment, though. Two hundred years later this is purely an intellectual exercise, as to whether DBs, let alone the Prussians, got the credit they deserved.

Many quote DoW's Waterloo dispatch, his crediting Prussians especially for their role in the victory. Not sure this was still the case a decade or two later, for very good political reasons, perchance?

This book is long overdue, but timing is ideal. Does anyone know if Rijksmuseum has finally reopened that Waterloo gallery with Slender Billy's uniform on display? Closed for years…….

Fascinating topic this. Far better than just arguing whether Boney was a bit on the short side (vertically).

This book is long overdue, but timing is ideal. Does anyone know if Rijksmuseum has finally reopened that Waterloo gallery with Slender Billy's uniform on display? Closed for years…….

Its all on display at the Army Museum in Delft – including a full size stuffed Wexy, Slender Billy's faithful charger…Well worth a visit, and you can send the womenfolk off to look at the porcelain factory…

So glad you told me. Rijksmuseum has been closed for years and I was hoping Waterloo gallery would be reopened, as I never did see it! Delft…never even thought of the Dutch Army museum (however obvious!)

Appreciated!I have seen pics of Vexy on line and should have twigged.

Ah, remember that both the horse Wexy and the uniform are not usually on display, as still part of the private collection of the royal house. Wexy is currently at display till 16 June at the Dordrecht Museum, which has an expo on the art collection of Willem II.
The Army Museum was closed last year at Delft and will re-open as a new (in combination with the airfoce museum) national army museum at the end of this year at Soesterberg.
There is a small 'Willem II hall' at the Rijksmuseum with Pieneman's big painting on display.

More exciting news items on our website this week!

- a little sneak peek
- a title for volume 3
- and all else you need to know

For all Waterloo 'afficionados' I say: do not miss out on this opportunity!!!! Learn more you ever knew ;-)
1815fieldarmy.nl

Good news – can't wait!

Have a look at how the Nassau defenders of Hougoumont experienced their fight, in this little sneak peak ;-)

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The title for Volume 3 will be: Standing firm at Waterloo.

1815fieldarmy.nl/books/3-book-3

A first design of the front cover can be seen at our Facebook page. Just visit our website and click through!

Only 2 more chapters to go, before the main manuscript is ready! Just finished one on the big episode of the cavalry charges.
As you may well know lots of artillery crews had to seek shelter among the infantry squares during this time, and one of these was the combined half horse batteries of captains Gey and Petter. Serving with it was 2nd Lt. Wassenaar, who later recalled what happened:

"We then had to retreat from our last position to give room to the cavalry, who were to the right and behind us in the plain. To pity were two Nassau battalions [sic] that covered us, who were shot dead as many fell. With a loud hourrah they went forward en tirailleur when we had retreated. We then were back again down the slope close to the road from Nivelles. From here we watched the cavalry charges; it was already late in the afternoon. Suddenly we saw a mass of cavalry approach from the height of La Haye. Thinking that ours were driven back, Captain Petter had everyone placed in front of the guns and take their pistols to sell their skins for the highest price. We soon learned it were a few English squadrons who had captured 2 eagles and returned with these. It had nevertheless created a lot of confusion in the meantime, because retreating along the highroad had become impossible. We then received the order to return, even though our munitions started to get scarce. We didn not fire anymore. It soon slackened and then stopped all together."

Moreover it is interesting that there was a brief lull in the charges halfway, and some horsemen challenged eachother for a one-on-one duel.
If you would like to read more about that, take a look here!
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Odd…….."late in the afternoon…a few English Squadrons who had captured 2 eagles" etc……..

Many accounts of Waterloo are very confused as to time and sequence and can you blame the contemporary authors?

I suspect Ewart and Stiles had long left the field by this stage. Sometimes I can see what Wellington meant…no one can write an account of a battle (himself included, but he did have the advantage of mobility)

Look forward to this release, but remain sceptical about primary sources…even more about secondary sources!

Well, indeed some accounts written years after the event can be very confusing, as in fact also letters sent home to parents just days after the battle can be just as odd.
Somehow, it is the task of the historian, or the amateur historian in my case, to make sense of all this ;-) Putting forward new primary material on such a topic as the battle of Waterloo is always interesting and can at the same time be an adventure in case it gives additional information to what is already known, or what is accepted. As for example some individuel cavalry duels fought out: link

Everyone here who knows my first two books, is aware I hardly ever use secondary sources and instead build up every book from scratch through the primary sources. I suppose even about the latter ones one can be sceptical, but if such is the case… we must be about all from every nation… Fortunately in my opinion the primary evidence is able to construct a cohesive story!

So, just enjoy the possible books on your shelve with a bit of a colour theme! link

And please be aware with 200 Years of Dutch armed forces celebrated this coming 23 April & our King celebrating his birthday next weekend, we will announce a discount action ;-)

Marvellous to find such an untapped resource and produce something different, as you have done. I have all five volumes of Glover's Waterloo Archive and we still need more from the Netherlands (DBs) and the Germans, of whatever army. I am sure it is out there still.

I cannot believe there is anything left originally written in the English language though and unpublished.

Thanks for the praise mister 'deadhead' ;-)

No doubt I will present lots of material unknown again in my Waterloo volume. All for the benefit to deepen our insights on the battle and provide additional perspective. With the numerous amount of quotes I hope to enrich everyone's understanding of the events.

And in the continuous light of our country celebrating its 200 years of being a kingdom and likewise its army celbrating various events, we offer some interesting DISCOUNTS these days.
Take a look here: link

Read the latest news items added online!

The manuscript is almost done & finished ;-) Time now for lay-out, indexing the contents on names & topics, adding illustrations.

1815fieldarmy.nl

ATTENTION!

Within the next few days my book on the Battle of Waterloo will be available!!!!

1815fieldarmy.nl/books

You seem to have discovered football also, to judge by tonight's game. Brilliant………..

In advance of an advert here on the TMP main page I'd like to say: get ready for some wonderful DISCOUNTS!

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I would like to add there are some really nice eBooks available as well, readily available to purchase & download in pdf-format.