"Kickstarter - Why?" Topic

I am wondering why so many people are investing their hard earned money in Kickstarter?

I am genuinely interested to hear other people's opinions as it seems to me to be a bit of a bad idea generally and here are my reasons why:

1. Absolutely no guarantees whatsoever
2. There are alot of manufacturers out there (often very small 1 or 2 man or woman bands)who have got things started with their own time, money, blood, sweat and tears who put no risk onto anyone else
3. Shouldn't we continue to support the above and suggest what we would like to see in order to help these manufacturers thrive, again with no risk to the customer
4. Often there are similar lines already in existence – why not support them instead and therefore see them expand due to popularity. Again with no risk to customer!
5. You often have to wait months for your non-order after a Kickstarter has finishex to come through but ordering from an established setup, you will receive usually, in days!

I have not thus far supported any Kickstarter and I am unlikely to going forward but why do others?

I have not supported any KS either, but it is a valid business model. Effectively, when you put money into a KS you are "buying shares" in the business. From the point of view of the company seeking investment, KS has a far better rate of return since the average "pay out" on a KS deal is far less than you would get if you had actually bought shares in the business. A KS is also a good means of gauging the marketability of a product.

Thanks for your reply major. I understand the business model. It is like buying shares except you own absolutely nothing. You have no rights whatsoever from the start.

If the payout succeeds then yes you get quite alot of bang for your buck. However, I can't help feeling it removes business from the wonderful manufacturers already out there.

I have only invested in one. I am not a fan of KS in general, but wanted to support this particular project and found the exclusives offered to be hard to resist.

The only Kickstarter I have contributed to was nothing wargamery at all, but a music CD by a chap I have known electronically for years and years, even though we haven't met face to face. For the modest amount involved, I would happily have simply donated the money; getting not only the CD as produced and the bonus CD I considered very good value indeed.

Throwing money at people I don't know, even by reputation, is contratriwise not something I am inclined to do. But then I have yet to see a Kickstarter for anything wargamery that I would actually want to buy.

All the best,

John.

I like the idea, the original idea of Kickstarter. What I don't like are the number of established companies who seem to use it as 'pre-order sales'.

Saying that, I have never actually backed any.. but have seen plenty that I thought 'hey, I've gotta buy that when its released'

Go watch The Producers and Max Bialystok will explain it all.

I am one of those small manufacturers who started his own miniatures company, and I employed Kickstarter to provide the capital to help me grow the range. I think that it is a handy source of funding to have in your tool box.

My reputation rests on how well I manage the project and get the figures out to everyone in a timely manner. I take this responsibility very seriously and I can't afford to screw it up.

I have also invested in two KS projects. The first project is delivering its figures now while the second project just completed its funding so it will take awhile before I see any figures. In both cases, my primary reason for investing was that I like the companys' figures and I wanted to do something to help them expand their figure ranges.

I don't believe that my investment in two companies has taken anything away from my interest or ability to purchase more wargame figures from other manufacturers. I don't agree with your premise.

Some of the projects Kickstarted are by existing companies allowing projects to come to market. So, you can support some smaller companies by investing.

Kickstarting is more akin to angel investing. You want to see a product come to market. If it is successful you get the product. Frequently it allows a more complete range of product to be made which is good for the end user and the manufacturer.

MANY years ago when I had hair on the top of my head, I supported a RAFM project to cast more of their lovely "Space: 1889" figures, somewhat of a kickstarter before they were so named. This took much longer than I (or perhaps anyone else) anticipated, so much so that my children (now grown up) still kid me about it. I supported it knowing I had no rights if it failed to produce a single blob off pewter that looked even tangentially like a Martian and that the project would take some time. I did it as I thought the miniature line was simply remarkable and I wanted some Martian seepoys to help storm the walls of the varous Martian political entities too dense to see the wisdom of joining the British Empire. Since my career was somewhat demanding at the time (and the children even more so) the long lead time was not an issue, and the risk was one I could afford (monetarily anyway, the kids still chide me with the delay between the start and actual delivery). RAFM did eventually produce and has continued to add to the line, though slowly. In any event my tastes moved back to WW2 and I sold off my Martian metal pile. I am still satisfied that I participated in the work, even if my satisfaction is more from viewing others work on the varoius blog sites. So, no, it was not a completely logical decision but I am glad it worked out. I would support other KS in the future. I would not bet the farm on it, but you could say that for any of these toys we play with.

I think most companies, whether big or small, want to do a good job. Some do fail for lots of reasons. Few are there to purposely rip of your money and so the risk is manageable.

Just my .02.

Of the Kickstarters I have "invested" in most are trying to get a product to market or expand their miniature range at a speed that was not possible before. We have all complained about a range of miniatures not expanding as quickly as we would like it to this allows those companies to make that expansion happen far quicker than they could have with more traditional funding methods. Even if you don't participate you may well benefit in the end because something is available now (like Reaper's BONES line) that might not be available for another five years.

As long as you pay attention and do some research its relatively safe. I have participated in 25 Kickstarter projects there is only one that I'm concerned with (and its the one that I went with heart on because its a game I love to play) and one that is very late but is still likely to deliver. On the way I have helped fund 2 SF 15mm launches, a WWI book of personal photographs, medieval buildings for my RPG games and a line of 28mm 1812 laser cut ships. Its been a blast but I am careful about what I do and I have dropped out of 5 or 6 projects because something didn't feel right. You do have to pay attention!

Lots of positive comments and like DAF has shown some are true genuine seeding funds for existing enterprises to re-capitalise / re-invest in new products and supporting structure (tooling etc).

However, RC I echo some of your comments too and there some KS that have been formed by others I have never heard of – I would be wary. I also have to scratch my head at some of the ridiculous sums of money being asked for (1 figure KS has raised $1.2 USDmil! – That is someone who doesn't have to worry ever again.)

Some KS are nothing more than pyramid / ponzy schemes thinly veiled.

And remember if the KS fails it is very difficult for the backers to get their money back, leading to costly court exercises with no guarantees of getting your money back (irrespective of what the bodies say).

I often see the word 'investor' in these conversations. People pledging money to projects on KS are not investors but 'backers'. The following is from their website

Backers are supporting projects to help them come to life, not to profit financially. Instead, project creators offer rewards to thank backers for their support. Backers of an effort to make a book or film, for example, often get a copy of the finished work.

If you are just after a good deal, there are other ways to make that happen. The KS mission is this, also from their website

We believe that creative projects make for a better world, and we're thrilled to help support new ones. Building a community of backers around an idea is an amazing way to make something new.

Quite simply if the things on KS were already being made, you could buy them without KS. Things on KS wouldn't be made without it.

Personally I liked the idea of Super Hero skirmish gaming but I didn't like the current miniatures available. So I found a sculptor, studied mold making and casting and started a KS.

Without KS, this wouldn't have been possible. I'd be stuck with whatever was out there, which I didn't like, so no gaming of the style that I wanted. You know what, there were 53 other people that liked the style of figures that I was going to produce enough to say, Hey, I like those to and I will back your project.

KS made this possible, and that's why folks turn to KS. Without KS, there would not have been a place to find all those other people and a way to bind us together.

It's not perfect and some large companies that have the capital to produce without it do use it as a preorder system.

Some of us are idealists that like the idea of producing something new that we want even though it's not profitable. I have yet to make money out of my business, it survives only to make more miniatures.

3. Shouldn't we continue to support the above and suggest what we would like to see in order to help these manufacturers thrive, again with no risk to the customer

Should? Why? Is there a morality about these purchases?

No morality suggested in that point. It's simply a mutually beneficial arrangement, a basic business principle. But with no risk to customer.

Thanks for all your replies. Overall it seems to be pretty positive but caution is also suggested but I guess that is always the way in any fiscal exchange.

Good to hear from people/manufacturers who have succeeded through KS as well.

Alas, I am still not convinced, though I have been tempted.

I have learnt also not invest in a new line, regardless of the manufacturer until it at least nears completion for fear, hard learnt, that it may never be completed. So I guess in a way, KS is better as it fast tracks a wide ranging erm, … Range.

That reminds me, anyone need 6mm (Baccus) FPW? PM me for details.

Thanks again for your responses.

Rhys

People pledging money to projects on KS are not investors but 'backers'.

An investor is someone who commits (money or capital) in order to gain a financial return.
link

Sounds like a KS backer to me. You pledge X pounds/dollars, you expect to get product in return. The product is not money but has a financial value, often in excess of the amount pledged. The return on your investment is in the form of "payment in kind". Like investing, there is a risk involved.

I support Kickstarter to get miniatures I always wanted but no-one ever produces.

A big problem with miniatures is that all the money is up front. Getting a 15mm figure and mold made probably runs say $200. USD For which you can charge maybe $.75 USD at the high end. So you have to sell 300 to break even. Easy enough if you;re selling mass troops where an army is measured in dozens and dozens.

But now think about a Gunfighter. You can defray the costs a bit (modify previous sculpts, share molds, etc.) but you're still looking at several thousand dollars to do a modest range. So KS lets that range come to life.

Because we want new toys, and in many cases, they aren't available until the KS is funded.

What financial return do you get from giving $$$ to a kickstarter project? There is no financial return. No one is buying "shares" in a company. No one is an "investor."

All people do is put up some money in return for some products. That's it. No revenue sharing, no cash dividends, no equity, nothing but some toys or whatever doo-dads.

Personally, I'll let everyone else foot the bills the for the KS project. Then if the company actually makes the product, I might buy it or not. So I pay a tad more and don't get the "awesome" freebies. At least I'm not out of any money.

What financial return do you get from giving $$$ to a kickstarter project? There is no financial return.

The financial return is all the extra stuff you get over and above the value of the pledge you made. It's a "profit" taken in kind rather than in cash.

Because they offer strong incentives to bring product to market in the form of savings or volume. The risk is probably better than buying from Ebay. Obviously you need a healthy dose of caveat emptor, but so far I've had no issues with the half dozen odd I've backed

If I 'invest' in Nike and they are successful, I get money not shoes. I think that's the difference.

If I invest in something, I want to make money from it's success. If I back something, I want to see that thing succeed and own it/benefit from it as a result.

I buy in because someone is producing something I'm interested in, I think they have what it takes to make it happen, and the pledge levels make purchasing the thing attractive. What's so hard to understand?

-Will

I back kickstarters because someone is producing an item that I am interested in, and usually a business that I am familiar with. The latest example would be Crossover Miniatures. I do not look at the $$ as an investment in the company. I look it as getting a discount on items that I probably would have purchased anyway.

I have supported 6 KS.

1) Bug Hunt Corridors – went well if not "perfectly" according to some. Alas, I still have not opened the box of corridor pieces because I decided after supporting to shift from 25+ mm figure to 15/6/3 mm for space reasons so eventually I will sell/give these to someone.

2) Itar's Workshop – Accessories in 25+ mm. Still working on some issues but I am patient. Will probably go the route of the Bug Hunt corridors but that is because I am changing scales where I can. They were intended for New Spain war games and Zorro skirmishes. I may have to stick ith 25+ mm for this as I cannot find Zorro, Soldados de Cuera, and Presidials in 15 mm.

3) Meridian Miniatures Steam punk miniatures – for Spanish VSF on Venus. Have them and love them but see #1 and #2 above.

4) Arceworlde figures – one small band – in work but frequent enough updates about process to keep me happy. See above though.

5) Kierygeek vblog – because girl geeks needs support too. A small amount of money sent, received a tape measure, and felt good about what she did with her vblog.

6) Woman Pilots of WW2. Seems Russian Bureaucracy and culture has not changed in some ways. Sent a small amount of money, may get nothing but knowledge about how WW2 aged Russian women are somewhat risk adverse and Russian Bureaucrats are the same as Soviet ones.

I regret nothing I have supported so far but then I avoided several shaky ones (DG Hardsuits) and saw no need for more Reaper Miniatures then or now – see Scale change mentioned above.

Most of the ones I have seen fail had red warning flags all over the project. And I have been lucky I am sure.

Ok so the investing thing is purely semantics. Your not investing in the company. investing implies part ownership of said organization. This comes with taxes, paperwork, and usually lawyers. Your pre-ordering BUT it's not a preorder system. Its the best way to negate the startup costs for a venture. It happens to be rather popular in this industry because we have a TON of cottage guys who want to do niche stuff.

KS wasn't big when I started. However, I would have done it in a heart beat. I'd be 3 times as big with 4 employees, 200 more products, and no carpal tunnel issues from making 50-60K omni-stand rods. It's a win win for both sides with a mild financial risk on both sides.

It can be used very effectively by established companies as well. For instance, Mantic does it really well. They use it to advance a line by several years. Reaper did the similar. Others use it as a glorified pre-order system and you can spot those easily because of the price. If your not getting 30% or more off retail then what is the point?

I for one will be using it here soon for several projects. I need to get over this hump and will hopefully get there in a few months. Can't hire employees and I can't keep up with the workload solo.

As an example. Hundreds of people have asked me to do Omni-Rulers in metric. Well it isn't going to happen without a kickstarter. I need at least $5 USDk in order to get a decent price point on 40mm sections and a kickstarter would allow me to get that and expand the line as far as possible. Eventually adding 20mm sections and maybe 15mm in all 12 colors. However, saving up that much capitol and risking it all for sales that will stretch out years isn't worth it. I'd offer only silver and black and have to make 3-8k of them per run. Or… we KS the project and see how much interest there will be in one big bang. It would be a one shot deal and I'd never stock them again. Possibly do a follow up second run in a few years but that would depend on the growth of the company.

I predict that we are close to the end of the KS bubble. It will still be used but the money well will dry up a bit as more and more projects run into issues. Its still useful and gives us more toys faster.

I supported the very popular Ogre Kickstarter and I have to say the whole process really got me excited about playing this game. I think it was kind of a win for everybody.

I have supported a few
1) Bug Hunt corridors – still waiting for product
2) Gaming and RR terrain – delayed, but a good product
3) Foodie dice – delivered on time and were great Christmas gifts to Sister in Law and Brother in Law
4) Sails of Glory – delivered a little late, but overall a great deal
5) Deadzone – delivered a little late, but good deal on the figures
6) Winter War – fantastic deal for the money opted to get a single delivery so waiting for delivery
7) Mars attacks – funded, but will be a good deal
8) Fief 1429 – looks like a game that we will play

While the intent of kickstarter was to fund startups, I have no problems with it being used as a presale for established companies. I look for deals and if a company is willing to give a good deal for early buy in then I am fine with it

Kick starter is helping some, and hurting others. I think there might be a few stores feeling the pinch. My local store manager told me on Wednesday that he is reluctant to carry anything that was kick started, because the number of people who already have it.

I have talked to a couple of small operators like myself who are seeing decreased sales.

It is a feast and famine situation.

Some will get rich, and some will die off. The normal course of things.

I purchased some paint in the new Reaper Kick starter to use on the box of rubbery minis from the first one. It is scheduled for shipment in December of 2014. I really do not understand why I did this. I should have just went and bought paint at my local store and I would have been painting already.

@Ken I'd think you would have an increase. Even if you need to outsource the mold creation it would still probably be cost effective to have you make the plastic stuff for some of the smaller ones. I'd much rather drop a mold off at your place and get a big box of sprues back then deal with over seas manufacturing. We need some sort of coalition of US manufacturers offering a kickstarter in a box solution. Sculptors, artists, accessories guys, a printer and figure makers. Just need a sales guy or 2 quoting package deals who knows all our cost schedules. You want to make 2k units of a board game? then here is the per unit cost delivered to your door.

Firstly, I'd dispute the assertion that KS is risky, but ordering from existing manufacturers is safe.

I've had no problems with the KSs I've backed, but over the years have had real problems with some existing manufacturers not responding to orders, or simply not sending the stuff.

This is because I always check out the KS carefully – see who's running it, what have they done before etc. Whereas with established businesses I just assumed it would all be fine.

Secondly, I launched a range of figures a year ago. I put a lot of time and money into it. I released them through normal channels – I got very few sales, and lost a lot of money.

A few months later, I launched a new project through KS; it was a success, and delivered on time. So I launched another – that too was a success, and will deliver next week, also on time. Without KS, those figures would not have been made.

Remember, everyone you order figures from over the internet is taking your money and sending you something later. With KS the wait is longer – but with care, the risk doesn't have to be greater.

I have to disagree with you on risk Lovejoy – with credit cards and especially Paypal, the risk of online ordering is minimal to nil – you have not only consumer protection law, but the payment processors too, on your side. With a Kickstarter that just isn't the case – it's debatable what, if any, part of general consumer protection applies in the case of a Kickstarter, while the standard timescale of it means Paypal protection and suchlike will have long since expired by the time any problem emerges. I'd always treat a Kickstarter as inherently risky – doing a bit of due diligence on the creator can obviously help reduce that.

As for its utility, I see it as in general more of a no-brainer for the creator than the customer, in that it allows you to fund a project that might otherwise take years to get going, or possibly to see the idea die on its ass, and save yourself major investment in a line that wouldn't have sold….

For the customer, reasons for backing a KS can vary a lot (and there's more than a little herd mentality going on too – KS is "cool") but for me the main ones are:
1. It's something genuinely different, that simply can't be gotten through regular channels.
2. It speeds up a project that you want, and would take far longer to see the light of day without the upfront funding.
3. It's a bargain. (This one especially is where the whole "backers vs customers" thing can get blurry, with people jumping in simply because they see a good deal, and not really looking more deeply at what a KS project really is.)
4. It may be something that there's customer enthusiasm for (every trader has had those "you should make this" emails…. ;-) ) but the manufacturer was unconvinced by – occasionally a KS might be about enthusiasts vindicating the demand for an idea so that a manufacturer will make it.

Personally speaking, I've only done three Kickstarters – one is primarily about the rules for me, although there are figures too which are a bonus. It's running behind, but there have been occasional and clear updates which definitely indicate it ought to come good. I'm not even sure if I'll like the end product, but the concept sounded more than interesting enough to take a punt on.

The second was more a case of "it's a bargain" than anything else, and has had hiccups, but is delivering product, and I hope will be a thorough success – this one actually had me worrying "I hope he's not offered too much" which is very odd sounding, but I want it to be a success for the creator, as well as me getting a pile of toys…. :-)

The third is the biggy for me, and one that I'm into for a big chunk of cash. There's no way I'd have backed it to that extent without having some idea of the creator's history and previous products, and without them having had at least some "in the flesh" finished product to show from the start. This one's behind schedule, and I'd guess likely to slip a little further, but has had fairly regular updates, with photos of the progress made, over the last few months, and ought to be delivering in the next month or two.

Nothing I've backed has delivered on schedule, and everything has hit hiccups of one sort or another – to be honest if you're likely to get upset by either of those, you probably ought to steer well clear of Kickstarters. On the other hand, all three look on track to deliver, with 2 of them being something new and different, and the third just a ridiculously good deal. In all three cases I knew I was taking a risk chucking my money in the pot (lessened in two cases by the creators being known to me, so having a track record to inspire some confidence.)

Anything backed on KS should be treated as a gamble to some extent, but it's minimised by carefully looking at the project, and how much of it is clearly deliverable by the creator (eg. do they have some sculpts, test models, or past projects of a similar nature) versus "we hope to" as well as how much of a track record they have in the industry.

Dom.

"I have learnt also not invest in a new line, regardless of the manufacturer until it at least nears completion for fear, hard learnt, that it may never be completed. So I guess in a way, KS is better as it fast tracks a wide ranging erm, … Range."

And that is, why many lines are not made. And so KS is a good idea.

I've backed a couple such as Unexploded Cow (great game), Sedition Wars and Rivet Wars, Dreadball, Deathzone, Army Armies 15mm figures (great figures)

I also backed the Warzone Resurrection KS as I've played the old game from 1st through to 3rd edition (ultimate) and I've always like the system and the background, when they released a press stating it was going ahead I was happy to join in and get it up and running again as a game, pleased with the resulting figures they have now produced.

As regards delays with KS if it is funded to the amount they wanted (which is a realistic price to get it going I generally expect not much delay if they double the amount I add at least a month and then add a couple more months to the delay if they get a load more and create a load more than originally planned like WZR did so I expected at least a 4 month delay.

I'm now looking at the new Warzone RPG which is coming soon.

The Sails of Glory kickstarter allowed backers to buy exclusive ships at IIRC about 16 bucks a ship. They are now selling at 30-40 on ebay. I know several backers bought well into three figures and are looking at a pretty healthy return on their investment :)

Now you're just being a smarty pants, you naughty boy.