"Crossed Lances Jousting" Topic

Check out our brand new web site; If there not teething problems I will be very impressed.

crossedlances.com

We won at Derby the best participation game 2013, with over 200 people each day playing, our throats were dry and croaky by the end of the day.

I hope all those of you who have supported us now become more involved and buy the first set of rules which concentrates on the Joust and mounted melee, with these rules we have used 6mm, 10-12mm, 20mm, 25-28mm and one of the test players used his 40mm figures, no issues arose.

We have, from the traders alone who joined and played, promises to buy over 800 sets.

The second set due out in Feb deals with the foot melee, the archery competition and the crowd events, riots, drunks, thieves, witches etc.

Hope you come and join us at Vapnartak for a game – link

Martin and Peter

10gbp for one 28mm knight, are they painted ?

The webpage functions without probs for me. (Firefox, Win7x64)

Looks good.

A minor suggestion for the website……have a prominent picture link to the rulebook on the main page!

Any chance of attending a Southern show at all? Maybe Salute or Warfare? SELWG?

All looks very interesting but where are the examples of game play, overview of the mechanics etc.

I cannot find anything to tell me how the game actually works – turn sequence, initiative, actions, dice used etc etc

I'd like more info as well on the mechanics, dice, etc.

Looking forward to more on the foot rules as well.

@ Cedric we are down for Salute.
@ WTCFreak one figure unpainted but with the transfers see Curtsey miniature's on 1st corps web site – link
@ Nick that will be one soon, briefly 8 people 4 tilts each draw 3 cards from their skill set and one Lord card for how he is one the day, they roll the dice top move when they attain the move roll becomes the combat roll, a table tells you where you have hit and what points you have scored. The skill cards are played and the winner scores additional points. We are not giving too much away, we know one guy who is trying to copy us already and as we have funded this, we are being careful.

We have an advert in Wargames Illustrated in the next three months issues, the demos will show people how to play, so come on and join in..!!

We are at Vanartak, Allumwell, Salute and in May a weekend Tourne is being put on at the Armouries at Stratford on Avon and a trophy will be given, you can come and play at these shows.

Martin

Looks like a very interesting project. Nice to see an upsurge in medieval games and figures this year. I'll be making a beeline to the demo at Alumwell (WMMS).

Regards,
Matt
ubique-matt.blogspot.co.uk

You will have a lot fun in a short space of time introduce yourself when you get to us..!!

Thanks bgbboogie, I will do.

I will be at York and will try to get a game in if I possibly can

Are the rules available as a pdf?

Would like to check them out, but international airfare and other associated costs are a bit too expensive to permit that.

Are the hits all random, or is there some strategy involved in where you hit your opponent, while also trying to avoid being hit, and tying that all in to results for both opponents?

bgbboogie;
Congratulations on your first rule set and figures. The figures look very nice. After going through your entire website, I find that it lacks information on the rule set itself. The write up only gives a very, very brief overview, but does nothing in the way of explaining in a brief but concise manner on how the game mechanics work. To me, that would be greatly helpful as I have no way of seeing the rule set in the flesh or in action to make an informed decision on whether I would buy them or not. At present, your website does not inspire me to purchase the rules until I have seen them in action, tried them out or at least had an opportunity to preview them in person. Regardless I like the concept very much, as I have a number of knights being painted up that I could use with your rule set. The foot figures do indeed inspire me and I am quite interested in them (trumpeter, heralds, etc.).

Having written three rule sets and offering them for sale myself (and winning 2 awards in 2013 for 2 of them), I give a brief synopsis of the game mechanics on my website and that generates e-mail questions and eventually sales. I also have cards and when requested, I have sent a single card to people to show them what they look like with a SAMPLE across the facing (both front and back).

I really like the concept of a jousting tournament rule set, but with nothing to base it on in my region (Ontario, Canada) as you are not based in North America…it would be difficult for me to justify purchasing them with nothing to base them on.

Regardless, good luck and I do hope they sell well for you.
Regards,
Hitman

P.S. If you are interested in furthering this conversation, you could e-mail me at battlefield_designs@rogers.com and I would be happy to talk further in a more private forum. Please note that this posting in no way is meant to be negative but has been put together to provide constructive feedback which is what you requested.

Thanks Hit man changes are in progress…

The specialty packs (casualties, heralds and camp followers) look great as well.

Best of luck with the game and I agree some explanation of the rules might help me jump in.

Allen

rampantlion

A description is being written as we speak…! Come and see us a Vapnaratak, Allumwell and Salute and have a go, I bet you buy on the day !!!

We will have the expamsion set ready at those shows, we have great fun putting in crowd events and dastardly deeds for the GM to run.

Martin

I, as well, need more info about game play before I take the plunge. What I've heard so far sounds interesting, though.

@ bgbboogie – You may already be aware of this, but the pictures of the small tent and the large tent with ornamental top in your online shop appear to be switched.

Craig

I'm put off by the unclear description of the rules on this thread and by the grammar and spelling errors on the website (and of course in the title of the rules). If simple things such as these can't be done correctly, it doesn't bode well for the quality of the rules.
I can't see many people paying £20.00 GBP for these rules when you give virtually no indication of what you get for the money.

This sounds intriguing, though I agree with the posters above that it all remains a little mysterious (particularly for American gamers). I'd love to see some shots of games in progress as well.
I game in 54mm. I hope it wouldn't be too hard to tweak for bigger fellas. Since someone is already doing 40's I assume it could be done.

Ooops Apologies to Curteys miniatures.

I mis-spelt Curteys as Curtseys.

Sorry guys

sounds interesting…. It wold be great if we could see a more detail tirn game…. Do you plan to release a pdf version of the set?

I only had a chance to cast a glance at the game at Vapnartak but from what little I saw it certainly looked very interesting. will be on my 'to buy' list for Salute or Partizan.

Darrell.

Darrell Hindley Figure Painter:
darrellhindley.co.uk
Just Add Water II Blog (Painting etc):
link
La Journee Blog (Hundred Years War):
link
Gewalthaufen Blog (Late 15th Cebtury Blog):
gewalthaufen.blogspot.co.uk

@ Forger no we were not I will check and thanks, we love the guys to try and help us out. IT IS MUCH appreciated.

@hit man Please can you send an email from our web site to me please, I will send you my personnel one with more details.

crossedlances.com/category/blog

See the game in action at York.

I have just added a photo review of Crossed Lances together with a blow by blow game report. Its on my hobby site : link

Thanks for providing more details on the mechanics if this game. This is more than the authors seemed willing to do, and, I suspect, done with more clarity than had they done it. They should be very grateful they have you on board.
From the way you describe it the game seems very luck orientated, with little player input in terms of meaningful decisions. I suspect it is the type of game that works well as a fun participation game at a convention but doesn't have the depth and tactical interest to stand up to repeated play.

Please do come and join us for a medieval joust and mounted melee participation game at WMMS Sunday 9th March.

All are welcome to jump in, when we have space, last two shows we have been flooded with people wanting a game of three.

Martin

Hi Marshall Mark, Sorry but you are wrong about the game.

One of the test players is a member of the Lance and Longbow Society and a history major, more than qualified to pass comment on the hundreds of runs he has made. They gave us the football rules to include in the third set.

There is some luck of course, what rule set doesn't? The only luck though is in the higher dice roll giving a better hit.

As in any start up business mistakes will be made, but these have been rectified as far as I am aware. We must remember it is not a corporate designed game but two wargamers passing on a great little historical game.

Martin

Sorry but you are wrong about the game.

Rather than just saying I'm wrong, don't you think it would be better to explain why I'm wrong ?
For example, you could tell us what interesting decisions there are to be made, what tactical challenges are faced and how these can be overcome. What is there to sustain interest after repeated plays ? What impacts the outcome of the game other than luck ? How does player skill come into it ?

Has anyone bought the game yet ? Maybe you could get someone to write an independent review ?

Hi Mark,

There is more than enough about the game on our web site, on Sally 4ths website a review has been done by Chris, we are awaiting an American review and a review by the Lance and Longbow.

We have sold a fair amount of the rules, there is a distributor in the US and Italy who wants the game.

Once we get the clubs playing their own tournaments and posting their results we will start a league table.

Come and see us at WMMS and Salute and join in if you so wish.

Martin

Sigh…….I give up.

I understand where Mark is coming from on this. So far there have been no independent reviews forthcoming and he has asked for some fairly basic information but not received a reasoned reply.
TMP is a great place to launch and advertise a game, but you need to create a buzz and make it seem like you listen to potential customers.
At present,judging from the website, the game seems like a fairly pricey side game and the way you dealt with Marks questions could even be seen as a little patronising. You have a platform here to make people want the game, especially those that can't get to see it in action, so more info and answers to questions might be the way to go!

Look guys its very simple really, we have deliberately kept 'stuff' back.

As I said Sally 4th have done a good review, I don't want to lessen that input by reducing its effect by repeating someone's comments. We also do not want to run before we can walk. link

As to patronising I have no idea why it would be classed as that, it is not meant to be…Same old story text, email and forums are the worst comms possible.

WMMS is in 10 days and Salute the real launch date is then. There is a 4 pager going in Wargames Illustrated, that is for you guys to review.

Martin

I brought a copy after watching the game at Salute. Having played several times: while the melee rules are ok the jousting rules are 90% luck with small ' play my best card' element. Assuming we have it right: the rules need a few more step by step egs or similar on the rules forum/website.

They may have been written, as they appear, by some one with real love and knowledge of the genre but a great rules writers that maketh not. Wargames are about giving players decisions and options which succeed or fail to lesser or greater extent due to the great white cube .

I have already seriously tweaked the rules for my use eg deal more shield cards to players and allow them to use cards to change dice score for purposes of movement and to move up and down effects table, rather than the quirky 'difference in score' approach.

Good effort but you need to sell me on the decision point.

@Phil A you may find the options in rules book two go some way to giving you more of a feel of the period.
The rules came about with a lot of input from medieval re-enactors, horse riders and history buffs who really enjoyed the test play and game.
We have found it is the younger market and families that really get the rules.

Today we learnt that they went down a storm at the Little Wars convention in the USA.

We are though happy that you have tweaked the rules to suit your way of playing.

Good luck and keep gaming.

@bgb
Yes I can see the historical love and input as I said. Nice book and bits. . And melee good as is overall Tournie idea. Just the actual joust bit is blah bleh and as you say good for the kids.

If you're aiming your product at the younger end of the market you might want to tweek the 'Shop' part of your website, particularly the bit with the figures.
You might see it as 'obvious' that they come unpainted (if they do!) But nowhere in the product decriptions is this mentioned. As the pictures shown for the product are fully painted versions this is probably important.
Also there is not the required warning if the figures are made of metal containing any lead?
Don't want to see you get into any strife!

Hi Drumcharry & Phil A

Thanks guys we are always listening to useful input, the main trouble was we were badly let down by the printers the proof read just did not happen.

So in rule book two we did the proof read as well as a technical writer and feel book 2 is really good.

The options allow more controls with the joust runs, we deliberately left this out after I talked to a jouster the horse just doesn't do what you really want and often on the third run will shy away.

The figures and lead I thought we had something in there I will double check though on that, so thanks.

We have also had a large order in from the USA so the word is spreading.

We also intend to do a league table so send me you results through the web and we will put out a pdf magazine with updates and photos.

I have checked with a colleague, who used to handle this sort of thing when i headed up Sales and Marketing. He had a look and said that unless you are selling the figures painted, as in the photographs, then unless you have a description saying they're sold unpainted and 'unconstructed' then you are in danger of breaching UK advertising regulations (see the UK Act on misleading advertising).
I couldn't see anything about lead content so it may need to be more prominent.
Always happy to help if I can with this sort of thing, i'd hate to see a decent product fail because of legal hassles!

Hi Drumcharry we have added lead and unpainted thanks for that.

There is a detailed review of CrossedLances here:

link

which is the first one I have found from someone not associated with the author or selling the rules.

Sadly,they confirm some of the problems I thought there might be with the rules so I'm still looking for some jousting rules…

Mike

I can see many elements in there which are easily solved.

From what you've said the rules would benefit from a professional proof reader/editor who is both a gamer and has not had the rules explained to them.
They may have to do a fairly major rewrite though so that
everything is clear and grammatically correct.

Hopefully the game will survive to a second edition where these issues can be sorted out.

Just read the review. Thanks for posting the link. Nothing in the review surprises me.

Oh dear…

"I don't think that 'Crossed Lances' is completely unplayable"

Talk about damning with faint praise! It's (note the correct use of an apostrophe) a pity as, on paper, these rules should have a lot going for them – knowledgeable and enthusiastic authors, show games, online support and backed up by well-regarded manufacturers.

Unfortunately, they seem destined to become a case study in how not to do it: not fully-thought through, shoddily produced and the wrong price point.

As for the publisher blaming the printers for not proof-reading it, words fail me. Based on a working life spent in publishing, printers are the last people I would entrust with proof-reading anything. You may as well drop off your car and ask them to service it for you at the same time.

Re review, thanks for link : glad I'm not alone, wish I had read before wasting £20.00 GBP….

The rules have been redone with the errors amended. Still we have won best participation game at three shows and have people coming back for more.

Many seem to love them some hate that's life.

Next venue Fiasco