"Rude Brits " Topic

Westfalia Miniatures sells some Napoleonic British soldiers making a historic and provocating fingers sign.
I like them!.

From main page
link

Hope you enjoy it too!. (smile).

Amicalement
Armand

"Remember Agincourt Crapauds"

But who is the target? Obviously the enemy and yet I doubt that, unless no immediate threat, whilst still close enough for this.

If you know the folk who wear this rig (I assume they are "English", or at least British, as I am unsure whether Germans from KGL or Hanover would use this gesture)they would use this as a sign of derision. Not sure they felt that for the enemy as much as their Allies or even rival regiments.

I could see the Prince of Orange or Louis XVIII on the receiving end (but only if both were facing the other way, or a flogging might ensue)

Surely that's 2-0 to the Gunners?

Or better still, 2-2, replay back at The Lane

Message to Big Sam maybe?

Perhaps when the Dutch Belgiums withdrew at Waterloo? And didn't some Hanoverians withdraw as well?
Or maybe in a square at Ney's cuirassiers?

Are Westfalia the ones that do the Rude Highlanders?

Awesome figures! Will definitely be getting some!

Incidentally, good luck to the chap on the right when he tries to take his webbing off…the canteen strap is going over the cartridge strap but under the backpack strap, the cartridge strap is going over the haversack but under the backpack strap and the backback straps are going both over AND under all three – canteen, cartridge and haversack.

I should probably get out more.

Lord Hill; you are quite right and well spotted.

Will need to amputate and swap heads for a stovepipe shako – but they will find a home in one of my battalions.

Altfitz,

Seen this web site – link ?

Wellington and English writers played down
the role of any troops except their own.
The Dutch and Germans and their commanders
are conveniently forgotten except,
of course, where blame is imparted.
The modern English accounts tend to be shallow
and superficial works that repeat selected myths
without bothering to refer to other accounts.

Yawn

Lucky for all that those Prooshians were around then …
:)

On topic.
Figs look good though – may have to get me some of them.

They will be mine…
Oh yes they will.

Which lucky regiment gets them though…

Recovered 1AO:

Seen this web site – link ?

Wellington and English writers played down
the role of any troops except their own.
The Dutch and Germans and their commanders
are conveniently forgotten except,
of course, where blame is imparted.
The modern English accounts tend to be shallow
and superficial works that repeat selected myths
without bothering to refer to other accounts.

Have you checked out the sources in that link?

Having one or two of those figures in amongst a British army would look pretty good.

It brings to mind that famous WWII photograph of a column of American P.O.W's being marched through Rome. One is seen giving the two fingered salute (The **** off version) to the gloating lookers on.

Paul :)

I have seen a similar picture of Paras taken prisoner at Arnhem with one giving two fingers to the cameraman. In 1982, as the Argentinian prisoners were being marched out of Stanley in the Falklands, one dropped out of the line and came back to give a similarly rude gesture (involving the whole arm and a fist)to the BBC camera. In the latter case, the reaction of the British 'Toms' who were there was a cheer and a 'good for you mate'.
As far as the Netherlands troops in the 100 days are concerned, I think that modern historians have a more realistic view of their endeavours and there is more respect for their achievements. The early 19th Century accounts tended to be based on misunderstanding and the chauvinism which was rife throughout the World. After all, compare accounts of the Wehrmacht and the Waffen SS now with those produced in the late 1940s.

They are just ordering 2 Belgian beers

How old is the Two fingered salute ?
There is no evidence of it being used at Agincourt or at any other time during the 100 years war.
The frist it was see is 1901 in a film, but there are no records of being used be for.
You would think it would have been reported, note in a diary by some one as an insult in the past if it was in common usage.

Gerry Embleton thought this was the "English" salute – already in the medivial times – the Bowmens's gesture

Dear Mac
You have repeated the views expressed in Wiki. This traces back the jesture and story back to 1996. I new of this story dating back well before then when I was a child in the 1970s.

It is interesting to contemplate how old these jestures are but I think that the person who wrote wiki was mis-informed.
Stephen

Ooooh

Fabulous figures.

Might get a few of these for the Waterloo project i'm doing. Along with some mooning Highlanders!

F

Happy you enjoyed them boys!. (smile).

Amicalement
Armand

If the gesture was from the days of Agincourt, it would be a three fingered gesture not two. They would have needed to remove three (2nd, 3rd & 4th) fingers because that was how many were used to pull on the bowstring.

Paul :)

Dibble

About time U showed up… by the way U will be
back before me Ha Ha Ha … Yup you bet me and 2 others.
LMAO

Regards
James

Rather an apt page to find me on eh!

The powers that be over there are probably monitoring us over here!

Paul :)

Steven

Are there any primary sources of the French cutting the fingers off the right hand in the 100 years war?

I did not get it from wiki, my primary source was Steven Fry and QI.

Mac

Sorry "v" not "ph"

How do you order from Westphalia? Can't seem to find an online order function… Maybe it's my iPhone? I'm just being thick? Or is it an old school mail order job?

Dear Mac
According to some historians, Henvy V speech referred to this practice before the battle. Primary sources as ever is a very very difficult area as few exist. Alas Steven Fry and QI are wrong again in my opinion. We are in the area of beleive what you wish. The use of the finger is a very very old method of communicating.
Stephen

Edwulf. You just e mail them (see their site, phones are for making phone calls)…..it is a very informal set up run by some really nice folk, who are what I think of as the Ben and Jerry of 28mm casting. If you think ordering is hard (it is not, they reply pronto), getting to pay for things seems to bother them even less! Paypal, but their view seems to be "whenever you get around to it".

The products area s good as they look on the website and, above all, they are daring to be "different" and often producing stuff of a minority interest. Latest French 8pdr is an obvious exception and you should see the quality of the casting gone into the tools that come with the gun . Economically must be a gamble, but I hope they prosper.

and our US afficianados only need to remove the index finger for the more modern version…the single central finger raised. Means much the same, but an anachronism!

Whatever, less obvious than the two highlanders displaying their true attributes. (Accepting this might be a very cold morning in Belgium, with a wind up your kilt that would…..well let's just say I am impressed and feel inadequate by comparison)

@Dibble, if I want to stop someone from being a bowman without waging excessive economic warfare two fingers is right. They can wield a hoe but not a bow. It is what seems anachronistic that proves the unprovable. Olympic archers still use three fingers, so whoever 'invented' this story either reflected the truth or was very poor at observation. Irrespective, the gesture is older than my gran's nan!

Sweet. I was looking for a shopping cart.
I fancy some Jagers too so might email them soon.

What other personality figures would everyone like to see? How about a Bavarian soldier with beer stein, and a couple of Cossack figures on horseback carrying away loot. What would be apt for the Prussians?

British soldier playing a fife.

French and British prisoners.

Camp wives and children.

French soldier swigging wine.

British soldier with a pig in his knapsack.

Some French and British infantry heads, in stovepipe, Belgic and bell top or bare headed. But with unique features… Eye patch, pipe, cigar, bushy moustache, bald head (no helmet), boyish, handsome, ugly, broken nose that kind of thing… For converting figs.

The two fingered salute is most likely derived from the sign of the cuckold (two fingers held to the head to denote horns). A lot more personal to troops serving far away from home, especially if they caught the wife buying a box of OMO before they left.

I once saw a 54mm Peninsular War Frenchman holding out a bottle with one hand and carrying a pig under his arm. Nice conversion.

It would surprise me if an American POW had made this gesture, the two fingers really don't mean anything at all in American culture.

Must do to some US folk………..

and they do not come any cooler than this guy

cool Liam

when something is going " bad" it's easy to blame someone else grts sergjoe

There is also the chance that those chaps are calling to their kestrels: