"Bren Gun Issues to RM and British Army" Topic

I read an article yesterday that stated that as the Second World War wore on, Brens were issued down to fireteam level, instead of just 1 per section. This apparently started in the Royal Marines with their big 12-man sections, and spread to the Army. Previously, I had only come across this in Bolt Action.

My question is this: is this true, and if so, by the time Korea rolled around, was it standard doctrine to have 2 Brens per section in the RM and/or the Army?

Thanks!

Possibly the Brens issued early/mid war as AA protection filtered their way down once they became redundant for that purpose.

No. To the best of my knowledge the doctrinal approach of one per section was followed post-war. There may have been odd exceptions like a fighting patrol being allocated an extra gun but the infantry section remained remarkably stable in terms of its overall composition.

About the only significant structural change to RM occurred about 1961 or '62, where for reasons of commonality with the army and the need to rotate with infantry battalions in certain postings, the old wartime structure of RM commandos was changed to mirror the infantry battalion.

I saw a picture of Marines testing Bren guns on an LCT and half had the AA drum magazine, so you might be right.

No.3 Commando doubled their allocation of Bren guns for the Normandy landings, but were of course Army rather than RM. It is not impossible that other Commando units copied this approach though.

Ad hoc acquisition of LMGs to bolster firepower certainly happened, but to the best of my knowledge standard issue of the Bren remained at one per Section until the GPMG came along. I've not seen anything in WW2 era WEs re two Brens per Section, just occasional examples of a pool being held for issue as required (Para Bn for example).

I don't know what the post-war issue was, though I admit to being curious as to the Inf Bn org for Korea. Whatever it was, I imagine the CSM would give you a withering look asking about a fire team any time up to issue of the L86…

Gary

I've read of this happening unofficially. AA guns and spares from depleted platoons being used to beef up a section's firepower. Just look at the Brens that made it to the Falklands in 1982. They weren't official issue AFAIK.

"Fireteam" is of course an anachronistic term for British WW2 organisations. The British Army and RM did not use the term until the early 1980s.

I wonder if there is perhaps some confusion with the oddity of the Commando organisation in having a troop divided into two sections, each of two sub-sections. These sub-sections would correspond to what is normally termed a section, and have a Bren each.

All the best,

John.

Is the correct terminology, rifle group, gun group?

Okay, I am referring to to the RM sub-section as a section, or squad, as I could have more clearly (and US-ly) called it.

Twelve men – one Bren?

And yes, I believe it would be either rifle & gun group, or rifle & gun teams, or a mix, i.e. rifle group & gun team.

Re Falklands you may be referring to the LMG which was a Bren rechambered to the 7.62mm NATO round. They were issue to Corps units such as Royal Signals etc that were not infantry.

David

The Falklands War does provide an exception but essentially limited to one battalion, 2 Para. Their CO, being an exceptionally forceful character, managed to obtain enough extra machine guns to allow for two per section.

Gun group, rifle group.

I think Mr Salt is probably correct as to the possible source of confusion.

Thought the Royal Marines and Parachute Regiment used the L4a3 in the Falklands?

As several contributors have mentioned the normal scale of issue of Bren Guns was three per platoon. It was not unknown for "spare" Brens and non standard platoon organisations to be used. In Normandy to Arnhem, A Story of the Infantry, by Brigadier T. Hart Dyke DSO describes how the Hallamshires (4th Y&L) innovated: "As a result of this raid we evolved a new form of platoon tactics. Bren Machine Guns were normally allocated for local defence against air attack on our administrative and support platoons but as enemy aircraft were rarely seen due to the action of the R.A.F. it was decided to put these spare guns to better use. These Brens were consequently made available to the rifle companies. Platoons were organised into two Bren Gun sections of two NCO's four men and two Brens each, one large rifle section and, of course H.Q. with the 2" mortar. In the advance the Bren sections advanced up parallel hedgerows, one Bren covering the other, while the rifle section remained in reserve available to carry out a turning movement under the platoon commander covered by the mortar. These tactics reduced the number of men advancing at any one time and the death roll of platoon commanders. In defence, this organisation was highly successful giving each forward section two Bren Guns for cross-fire. The rifle section specialised in patrolling. Although not officially blessed this organisation and the tactics evolved, together with our Carrier platoon tactics, later appeared in an official War Office pamphlet. We maintained it throughout the campaign and never regretted it".

This is very much like the organisation suggested by Lionel Wigram in 1943 – see link I never been able to find a reference to it in any War Office manual, if anyone tracks it down please let me know.

On the designation of the parts of the infantry section, early in WW2 it was "rifle group" and "lmg group". Infantry Training Memorandum No 1, December 1942 refers to "Bren" groups" and "Rifle groups" – the riflemen of the section divided into one or two groups.

I have severe doubts about how often the rifle group split into two, Infantry Training, Part VIII Fieldcraft, Battle Drill, Section and Platoons Tactics 1944 suggests that a large section might be used as a Bren group and two rifle groups if the group leaders are really good leaders and the men have sufficient battle experience to operate without the control of an NCO. The two half rifle groups are referred to as "blobs".

Infantry Training Volume I Infantry Platoon Weapons Pamphlet No 6 Light Machine Gun and Section Handling (All Arms) 1955 reintroduced the term "LMG group", this time in capital letters – "except possibly in defence the section is divided into a rifle group and a LMG group ….". The manual uses "Bren" and "LMG" interchangeably.

Infantry Training Volume I Infantry Platoon Weapons Pamphlet No 6 Light Machine Gun and Section Handling (All Arms) 1968 repeats the section handling lessons on the 1955 edition but uses "LMG" throughout.

As the GPMG replaced the LMG it became the "Gun Group".

Well I don't know how far into the modern era you want to go but in 1985 doctrine taught at the School of Infantry Warminster to TAVR 'B' (General Reserve) battalion Platoon Commanders, (so for units armed with LMG's vice GPMGs), assumed 2 per section, in 2 fireteams. If I remember correctly, we were told this was as a result of lessons learnt in the Falklands.(Platoon Cdrs Division, Course 858)

I have read one official divisional history from Italy (46 Div, I think?), which discussed the disbandment of one of its three brigades and the Brens from that brigade being used to increase the number of Brens per Section to two.

AFAIK Brens were never issued in WW2 at more than one per section (oddities such as carrier sections apart).

However, as mentioned above it was not uncommon for the existing Brens within battalions to be reallocated, particularly where casualties had resulted in the breakup of S company units. e.g. by the time 43rd Div reach the Seine their losses were so high that the carrier platoons, AT and AA platoons had all been broken up and the surplus guns distributed to the rifle companies. At that time typical platoon strengths were around 20 men, but armed with 6-7 Brens per platoon.

Scrounging happened too, but was easier for units with transport. There was one carrier team which fought at 'Snipe' who had no less than five extra machineguns in the back of the carrier along with their Bren (another Bren, two rusty Brownings retrieved from a crashed fighter and two captured MG34s).

My Dad taught battle drill in 1945.
The lowest level of granularity ( as far as he was concerned ) was the section.
The platoon advanced as a three legged beast.
Two feet down, one moves.

I think it's a bit optimistic to expect the worn conscript army of 1944 to go haring about in independent fireteams.
Many units were decidedly unenthusiastic participants likely to require close supervision from what few effective leaders were available.
"sticky" worn veterans or more enthusiastic green troops.
Not really great material for splitting a section between hedges.
I wonder how often this innovation actually happened.

I wonder how often this innovation actually happened.

I wonder that too. I suspect it may have been feasible and attempted early on in the campaign but would be impossible to implement as attrition took its toll and sections reduced to 6-7 men including the Bren group.

Korea was a bit of an exception, especially when it became more static line defense. By then two was the norm. The more automatic weapons the happier the troops were.

Chucking in extra Bren guns would also require hauling in more ammo to keep them in action. Regular allocation for a section was 25 Bren gun magazines (plus some spare ammo), nominal load being 13 magazines carried by a gun group and 2 by each of the 6 riflemen.

Inventedregiment wrote:

And yes, I believe it would be either rifle & gun group, or rifle & gun teams, or a mix, i.e. rifle group & gun team.

Farrier Serjeant Picky says that gun teams are made up of 'orses.

All the best,

John.

The patrol in "A hill in Korea" has two Brens.

Just read history of Gurkha bn in Falklands, all four rifle companies had two GMPGs per section, Their pre-theater training included this format.

John FoA

From the Delaforce book on 15th Division, in October 1944, the 2nd Argylls had insufficient men for 4 companies so they formed battlegroups of 43 men with 7 Brens, 2 mortars, 2 PIATs and "a sprinkling of riflemen". You'll never see that in a wargame but no one has any problem with giving German sections 2 MG42s!