"Where did all the Prussians fit? Frontage Calculations" Topic

Hello,

A Prussian musketeer battalion by establishment circa 1806 was 830 men.

Presuming a three rank company line but not making allowances for file closers, NCOs and the like who would have been pulled out of line and using the working assumption of 22 inches per man that gives the following frontage calculation:

830 men / 3 ranks ~ 275 men per rank
275 men * 22 inches per man = 6,050 inches of frontage
6,050 inches / 12 inches per foot ~ 500 feet of frontage
500 feet / 3 feet per yard = 167 yards of frontage

So a full establishment Prussian musketeer battalion in 1806 would have been something similar to 150-175 yards of frontage.

George Nafzinger in Imperial Bayonets cites a full establishment Prussian musketeer company had a frontage of 79 feet and a battalion in line (4 companies) would have been 316 feet, i.e. 105 yards, numbers cited are for the period of 1799-1807 but they change only moderately before and after.

Now, I presume there will be some variance in calculation due to the number of file closers and the like, but by calculating out the space presumed for the men to stand – where the heck do the other ~50-70 yards of men stand?

His numbers for French and Russians workout, i.e. if I do this same math with those at their establishment levels I get the same output he does. One point of error is likely that of 22" per man as some nations presumed a wider per file interval but no one presumed a smaller allotment so that does not fix my issue.

Anyone able to clear that up for me?

Cheers,

The Bandit

Assuming the full strength battalion had 830 men, then accordingt to Nafziger's calculation each man would occupy 316/275 = 1.149 feet. I would suggest either:

a) Nafziger's calculations are in error, or

b) He was not calculating the frontage of a full strength battalion but maybe the frontage of an "average" strength battalion.

I usually reckon the frontage of a battalion (of any nationality) to be about 160yds.

Bandit,

Prussian musketeer battalions in 1806 had 5 musketeer companies.

This would give 166 men per company, which at the basis of 22inches (how old fashioned we are being!) gives:

55x22= 1210inches per company = 101feet = 34yards.

So, even with smaller companies, Nafziger is still wrong.

Jurgen

According to Peter Hofschroer an 1806 Prussian infantry battalion consisted of 5 companies, each of 2 divisions; each company consisting of 120 privates in the field and ten supernumeraries, giving each half-company division 20 three-man files, and a battalion in line 200 files.

The Grenadiers had bigger company sizes and ended up with the same 200 files. They had only 4 companies to a battalion.

The 4 company size that George talks about might be true for the 1790s Prussian organization as a musketeer battalion at that time had only 4 companies.

I wonder if the establishment strength of 830 included the grenadier company which was, technically, part of the battalion.

Jurgen

Also you have 50 schutzen per battalion (10 from each company), that would not be in the line of battle. I would go by what Peter Hofschroer has listed as the frontages.

The 830 is without counting the grenadiers, which were always part of rhe combined grenadier battlaions.

John

I pulled my establishment strengths from here: link

Musketier battalion had 830 men
Grenadier battalion had 805 men
Fusilier battalion had 690 men

It actually shows grenadier battalions slightly smaller.

George breaks out the frontages as follows for the Prussians:

1792: 90 feet per company, 360 feet per battalion
1799: 79 feet per company, 316 feet per battalion
1808: 86 feet per company, 344 feet per battalion

He notes that there were 5 companies during the 1799-1806 period in musketeer battalions but that one of those companies was grenadiers and during campaign was stripped to create a converged grenadier battalion so it is a nominal 4 companies. He does not state whether the above quoted frontages are based on 4 or 5 companies.

Later in his work he states that a wartime Prussian musketeer battalion if at establishment would have 150 men per company in a total of 54 files. That would mean:

4 companies * 54 files = 216 files – closer to Hofschroer's number of 200 files
Assuming 22 inches per file…
396 feet of frontage = 132 yards of frontage

Compared to his stated calculation of 105 yards we're still notably high at 132 yards.

The average strength of a Prussian musketeer battalion at Jena or Auerstädt seems to have been about 700 men give or take so about 85% of the establishment. The calculation of 54 files accounts for about 648 men in three ranks which is only 78% of establishment.

This is where I get confused, I'm using establishment numbers to give me a basis for calculation which "campaign strengths" can't give me since they are going to vary so wildly but the establishment frontage and the establishment strength should match and they don't seem to no matter whose numbers I am using…

Cheers,

The Bandit

Also you have 50 schutzen per battalion (10 from each company), that would not be in the line of battle. I would go by what Peter Hofschroer has listed as the frontages.

So that brings us down to 780 men in three ranks, 260 men per rank… 477 feet or 159 yards…

That does seem in the ballpark of my lounge chair math and it does match up decently with other nationalities when normalized for their establishments.

Cheers,

The Bandit

George breaks out the frontages as follows for the Prussians:

1792: 90 feet per company, 360 feet per battalion
1799: 79 feet per company, 316 feet per battalion
1808: 86 feet per company, 344 feet per battalion

That seems rather odd. Why would the frontage change over time?

I'd have to go back and look to see if he cites it directly but my presumption is that the established number of files changed. He gives numbers for pre and post 1808 French for that reason.

Cheers,

The Bandit

This of course is all theoretical depot establishment numbers. Most battalions would have a certain number of men sick, on leave, on other duties etc.
My guess would be each battalion would field approx 640 or so men at any one time.

probably the 200 paces frontage that everybody worked on

The Prussians went to a five musketeer company battalion, but it isn't clear whether the schutzen had been increased from 40 to 50 men per battalion by 1806. A shortage of money and rifed muskets, in that order. In any case, the regulations state that the schutzen are never to be in close order with the battalion, but always deployed as skirmishers.

There was also a 40 man 'reserve' in each battalion, which is not assigned to any company, along with about 5-7% of the men being NCOs and officers, extranumeraries etc.

So 850 men, -60 NCOs etc., -40 t0 50 Schutzen and 40 reserves, and that gets you down to 710.
236 per rank
22 inches X 236 = 5206 inches
5206 inches = 433 feet = 144 yard frontage, give or take a foot.

If the battalion was reduced, then it would be a smaller frontage, of course.

At Jena, Napoleon figured that only 10 battalions in line could fit in line between the villages of Closewitz and Lutzeroda. There was only @1200-1300 yards between the two villages and that is all the battalions the Prussians did squeeze in between there. So 130-145 yards isn't far off.

I agree with 18th century guy and McLaddie, a Prussian battalion of 1806 in Line should be about 110 m wide for about 200 soldiers per rank

a good discussion at least for the French you will find at

link

in the annexes, thanks to Steve Smith I was made aware of this excellent work

Is there a difference in the Prussian inch that Nafziger doesn't adjust for.

Hi

Perhaps we all need to go back and verify where does the 830 men idea originate?. Perhaps all further opinions may need to reference a source, as these seem to be guessing without it being clear if the source could be reliable or what the source was in fact indicating by the "number" in a battalion. For example is this only the musketeers or inclusive or all the assigned troops in a battalion?

If you are looking for the official strengths I suggest you go with Hofschroer (1984) Prussian Line Infantry 1792-1815. Page 4 notes 600 privates. Each of the 10 platoons consist of 20 files of three which supports the manoeuvre element being 60 and the "line" of the battalion being of 600. The remaining 22 officers, 56 NCO's, 16 drummers/buglers, 50 schutzen, 10 sappers etc would probably not be in the line. This suggests 112m frontage, plus space for gaps between platoons, the battalion artillery etc.

Then just to really throw some more oil on the fire, you may need to ask which Prussian regiments are your talking about. As this may change not only the number of battalions in the field, but their size and if they are in two or three ranks.

FYI – here is a summary of a discussion from the Napoleon Series, this raises some issues for 1806 you need to be aware of to reconsider all assumptions.

Prussia 1806 regiments of 3 battalions in 2 ranks

Original Mail

Ralph R. Reinertsen, Wednesday, 23 July 2008, 3:03 pm

Sources

Höpfner's (1850) Der Krieg von 1806 und 1807, vol 1,
- Rüchel's instructions dated "Mühlhause den 1. Oktober 1806" (Beilage D)
- link

Höpfner's (185x) Der Krieg von 1806 und 1807, vol 3,
- King's instructions dated "Osterode, den 23. November 1806" (Beilage F)
- Does not appear to be available on Google

von Borcke, Johann (1888) Kriegerleben des Johann von Borcke,
- link

Jany, Curt (1901) "Die Gefechtsausbildung"
- (1901) Urkundenliche Beiträge und Forschungen zur Geschichte des Preussischen Heeres Issues 1 to 5
- link

Commentary

Rüchel (instructions dated 1 October 1806)
"The third rank of the infantry is completely unnecessary. Its fire not only goes into the air, but also intimidates the soldiers of the first rank. The experience of three campaigns – which the King's troops served with glory and honour – that two Prussian ranks are completely sufficient to defeat the enemy. Yet while on campaign forming in two ranks with battalions at full strength, the voice of commanders are not loud enough to be heard fully and the movements become slow.

Therefore, I order that the infantry regiments form themselves in three battalions.
- first battalion of 3 companies in 6 platoons;
- second battalion of 4 companies in 8 platoons;
- third battalion of 3 companies of 6 platoons.

The first and third battalions shall each have one cannon and the second battalion two cannon.

On the march, these cannon are to operate by detachments [meaning of one or two cannon, respectively – R] as a general rule, yet where the terrain makes it more effective, I reserve the right to form special batteries on a brigade level from the regimental cannon." (Borcke (1888:xx)and Höpfner (1850:xx))

"Against infantry, the infantry shall charge so long as it is necessary and after the command has delivered a battalion volley." (Höpfner (xxxx:xx))

Borcke
The battalions formed in two ranks (page 27), although he was silent on whether his regiment reformed into three battalions or whether it remained in two battalions. In his account of the action at Jena (on page 30), he referred to a line containing "approximately" six battalions and named three regiments, yet the language was unclear as to whether the troops behind this line were from those same three regiments. I read it as the Regiment Alt von Larisch remained in two battalions yet in two ranks (he cites the two-rank formation two additional times on pages 29 and 31); see below for another unit's account. As to the regimental guns, they had difficulty getting forward only a few cannon get into position, but the tubes were either dismounted or the crews put into disorder. No mention of forming larger batteries was mentioned and, in any event, when the command attacks, Borcke's regiment did so without artillery support (page 31).

Jany
Contains excerpts from the diary of the Regiment Winning which operated with Regiment Alt von Larisch at Jena. Matching Borcke's account, the regiment's diary mentioned their guns were destroyed with the added comment that Schützen were sent to cover the intervals between battalions normally occupied by the cannon. As to the other points, the diary reported the regiment's reformation into three battalions, although use of two ranks was not mentioned.

Reglement für die Königlich Preußische Infanterie, Berlin 1788:16
All grenadier and musketeer companies will always form (unless it is ordered otherwise, for particular reasons ("besonderer Ursachen halber"), in three ranks. So at least from 1788 onwards it was not forbidden for the Prussian line infantry to be in two ranks – there just had "particular reasons" to be found.

Wrede
… regarding the Champagne campaign and the Prussians operating successfully in two ranks as full justification for the Bavarian Regulations being modified for their Line to always operate in two ranks from 1804.

Regards
Scott

Yes Rüchel organised his units differently then the rest of the Prussian army of 1806 – otherwise the units of Hohenlohes as well of Braunschweig followed the usual three rank pattern for Musketeer and Grenadier Regiments, the fusiliers fought in two ranks

The instruction for the generals with the army in East Prussia, Osterode, 23rd November 1806:

(in German and Fraktur only)

I have found Nafziger's calculations to be very unreliable.