"15mm Japanese School Girl Tank Crew" Topic

McWong73,

If I had said that "all Arabs can die" you might have a point; as I have not said it, your point is moot.

Jurgen

How the heck did I miss there was a bath scene in GuP?

Because there was actual dramatic action in it.

(The girls are trying to convince the heroine to be their tank commander, and the low-blood-pressure princess to be on the team, and their driver.)

One of the basic issues is context — I live in Southern California, so barely notice nearly-naked women. I suspect that our English friends are not nearly so used to the sight, living in a less pleasant clime.

I do not think that expecting people to have an understanding that portraying schoolgirls in a way that plays to male fantasies may not be morally neutral is being on a "high horse"

What I don't get is that short-skirted schoolgirls is morally repugnant, but killing massive amounts of people in both movies, Anime, and Wargames is 'OK'… If you feel that animated characters represent real world issues, what about all the other issues that are represented in anime/movies/(war)games? You can't have it one way and not the other imho. I just watched Mob City episode 6, the killing of Siegel, that scene is extremely graphic. I have a strong suspicion there won't be an outcry about that on tmp… Not that I feel a need for that, but I do find that a bit hypocritical…

Here's a GuP tank in 1:87 scale, work in progress…

link

Were else could you paint your tanks in gold plating or red with samurai banners and get away with accuracy?

ok so if you all have issues with 15mm Japanese school girls then I guess T-34/85's painted up as my little ponies will really get your knickers in a twist:

Left to right: Apple Jack, Fluttershy, Rarity, Twilght Sparkle, Rainbow Dash, Pinkie Pie.

my Daughter's team [she is 7]so will I be expecting even more trash talking now?

LGW

Turn in your man club card.

Turn in your man club card.

Get over yourself.

He's painting up tanks in awesomely strange colours to introduce our very strange little hobby to his daughter, and more power to him.

Cergorach,

"What I don't get is that short-skirted schoolgirls is morally repugnant…"

Ok, as with McWong72's comment, if I had said that, you might have an argument. However, I did not; what I said, and what you quoted, was:

"may not be morally neutral"

I would rather hope that people could see the difference between the two; however, why let a mere fact get in the way of an argument?

You then finish that sentence with:

"but killing massive amounts of people in both movies, Anime, and Wargames is 'OK'"

Errrm, have I said that killing massive amounts of people in movies, Anime and wargames is "OK"?

Let us explore that a little. Personally, I believe that gratuitous killing in movies is not OK; if the killing is necessary because it reflects historical fact or is necessary to the plot, then I think that is ok, as long as it is represented appropriately. Films that glorify killing for its own sake or fetishise killing (the Saw and Hostel series, for example), I do find morally repugnant.

Turning to killing massive amounts of people in Anime, I do not feel qualified to respond in a useful way as Anime is not something that I am interested in or have seen much of at all. However, my position on it is the same as for films.

Turning to wargames, I do feel that I, and all of us, are on morally uncertain and possibly hypocritical ground. Our games do involve death, mutilation and all of the other associated horrors of war, which is one of the reasons why the majority of those members of the general population who know what we do find it rather "odd". We all either find ways to rationalise this to ourselves or choose to ignore it. As a serving soldier who has spent time in Afghanistan, been shot at and shot back, I am very aware of what I am representing when I play with my little figures.

So, please do not put arguments in my mouth that I have not made and do not assume that you know what I think. You do not.

Jurgen

Lord GreyWolf,

The T34s are great; there are no moral issues about brightly painted T34s. In fact, there is one a few miles from where I live while in the UK:

link

As for "trash talking", I have seen no evidence of that in this thread, possibly apart from those who seem to need to invent things that they would have liked people to have said and then argue against those things.

Jurgen

This thread continues!

It's now been resolved: Some posters on TMP, such as myself, enjoy anime and Girls und Panzer and see nothing wrong with it. Others dislike anime and Girls und Panzer and have some kind of moral objection to it.

Neither side will be convinced by the other's arguments.

So Panzer vor!!

Lord Grey Wolf@ I love em".

How do you even tell them apart? They all look the same.

Turn in your man club card.

For finding a way to spend time with his daughter?

Go do something anatomically improbable.

Grey Wolf, I put the Pony tanks on twitter, they were well liked. Showing them to a friend who is a Brony tomorrow, I might be back with questions about painting.

@Thomas Nissvik Thx for the comments I still need to add on their Cutie marks will try and do some free hand this afternoon. I am no painter by any means and pretty basic style. if you want any tips just let me know.

LOL. My Daughter gave me my MAN card back when she told me she loved her tanks.

Whom of you would turn down a chance to spend time with your kids and at the same time play with tanks you love. For me my kids follow my interests they both are into tanks, Star Trek, Star Wars, Super heroes and many other Geeky things I enjoy.

LGW

"How do you even tell them apart? They all look the same."

The characters have different hair styles and colors, different eye colors, they vary in height and figure, and have different voice actors. It's easy.

Not my cup of tea. If it was, these are the only "Girls und Panzers" I'd want-

Pink tanks seem fine to me. Girls in tank suits seem fine. Teenage girls (even cartoon ones) in almost implausibly short sailor suits seem impractical and, in my opinion, send the wrong message to a wider general public who already think wargamers are a little weird…

For you gents who are actually in here to help get these minis made we are now two thrids of the way there with just on 400 units on order we need only 200 more and we will be there.

So come on guys all we need are 10 guys ordering 20 each or twenty guys ordering ten each.

For those who can and are willing please spread this out so we can get it done.

LGW

Only if you guys make a hellsing line

Omfg I love the IDF. Those are some battle babes.

my Daughter's team [she is 7]so will I be expecting even more trash talking now?

Yukari-sempai might take issue with what you've done to the beautiful original camouflage ;D

So Panzer vor!!

Pants are for what now?

How do you even tell them apart? They all look the same.

Well the Public Morals Committee are supposed to look all the same, that's the joke. The History Club have all chosen different historical personas, from Rommel to Caesar to various famous Shogun, which make them stand out, as do all the sashimono on their StuG. The student council members are distinct from each other (short one, serious one, genki one), and like to sneak around in their Hetzer. Rabbit Team and Seagull Team (the former volleyball team trying to regain their honor) each have a distinct character to them, though there is little difference between the team members. The World of Tanks Club and the Auto Club enter the story too late to really get to know the characters, but the WoT Club is really bad with real tanks, and the Auto Club can drift a Tiger, and make repairs on the go, which is cool (if you're not a tank purist). All the members of the main cast (Anglerfish Team) have distinctive personalities and motivations, and of course each have their own role in the tank. The writers actually did a remarkable job fitting 30-odd characters into a 12 episode series.

the Auto Club can drift a Tiger

I've seen a bradley do a powerslide: YouTube link

But I think the rubber track blocks on damp, muddy pavement help a lot, there.

and make repairs on the go, which is cool (if you're not a tank purist)

Not entirely improbable, after all that crazy Soviet tanker girl Mariya Oktyabrskaya was known for jumping out of the tank to fix slipped/thrown tracks against orders.

link

Hmmmm……..

If I like wrestling…I suppose I should use videos of teenage girls wrestling to introduce kids to it.

nothing wrong with that…less violent, nobody gets hurt

for comedy value, we could introduce short skirts and mud.

Again all harmless….

a wider general public who already think wargamers are a little weird…

Are they wrong? Really?

;-)

Hmmmm……..

If I like wrestling…I suppose I should use videos of teenage girls wrestling to introduce kids to it.

nothing wrong with that…less violent, nobody gets hurt

for comedy value, we could introduce short skirts and mud.

Again all harmless….

Ouch. What scathing wit. I bet none of those guys ever post here again, for fear of your biting sarcasm…

What scathing wit? I have no Idea what you mean!

In further anticipation,

…I await the future cuddly toy range from Kingdom death to link their ranges into the younger generation.

One admires the richness of their range and their multi facetted marketing stratagy.

…should be the first miniatures to be a hit with both brothels and wargames tables!

All a bit of harmless fun…..

And when you want kids to grow up to kill and be killed in the name of religion or the nation, you create cartoons, movies, wargames and computer games to glorify the ways of killing as many people as possible. All a bit of harmless fun… Oh… Wait… We already have that.

You know why I prefer to read fiction (preferably sci-fi and fantasy)? Because it's NOT REAL, I don't really like true stories, historical books/movies/etc., because it is real and makes me very angry.

Know the difference: Fiction vs. Reality
If not, please visit your local mental health institution…

I've got to agree with some here … not really my cup of tea, etc. … Of course the IDF is a bit of an anomaly … And IIRC the IDF trains some females as tank crews, however, they are not deployed in combat. But more of a back up, if needed, since their country is basically surrounded by traditional enemies on most of their borders. I remember watching CNN the last time the IDF attacked Hezzbolah in '06 … link There was a female IDF soldier writing down the names of all the troops in each APC(converted captured USSR T-55s IIRC) as it passed. Some one asked me what she was doing. I told them she was writing a manifest for each vehicles. So if the vehicle suffered catastrophic destruction … they'd know who was in there. As the bodies may be burned and dismembered beyond recognition … Dog/ID Tags may not be much help … My 2 Cents …

And nice to hear from your "Better" half Flecktarn … a female non-gamer POV … And again McWong, seems you have a bit of chip on your shoulder about your kids being 1/2 Mid Eastern, IIRC … Again no one here, Flecktarn, me or any one else said anything about "Death to all Arabs" ?! How did a thread about a very silly cartoon with Nipponese school girls crewing MBTs get this far OT … And maybe it's just me … but young school girls in school uniforms in this venue … has a bit of a pedophile feel to me … maybe I've seen to many episodes of SUV and Criminal Minds. And of course anyone who has been in an AFV knows overalls or battle dress uniforms are much better that short skirts … as demonstarted by the pics of the IDF [real] Panzer gals …

Maybe we should just ask all miniature manufacturers not to create any miniature that look like children/teenagers/small people.

Because after all warfare only effects adults… doesn't it?

"As the bodies may be burned and dismembered beyond recognition …"

Legion 4 and those who continually refer to this thread and topic as pedo get a grip and how about pulling your narrow minded heads out of your arse.

This thread is about getting very tiny metal miniatures of Japanese school girls so those who would like to play Girls Und Panzer in a table top setting can do so.

So STAY on TOPIC. If your trying to use this thread as your personal attack on anime, or those who watch shows like that then go make your own threads and bitch about there not here.

Quite frankly I am stunned at how many posts this thread has gotten. And how many post about how bad it is. Its beyond me….

The the only thing I regret is posting it on the TMP site… I guess I learnt a valuable lesson.. don't post on TMP.

I don't mind constructive comments but when your ranting about the immorality of the topic and then accuse this of being a little PEDO that offends me.

LGW

Pedophiles? Nobody even mentioned feet…

I just ordered 30. ;)

Just playing Devil's Advocate for a moment, wouldn't those of us who like Girls und Panzer, and anime in general, actually be exhibiting signs of "Ephebophilia", since the fictional characters in the show are all around 16 to 17 years old? Is there such a thing as Anime-Ephebophilia?

If you feel morally offended by animated characters in short skirts, perhaps contact Actas, the studio that produces the show, and request that they put the girls in coveralls or lengthen skirts, etc. I'm sure they care what a bunch of Western wargamers think who don't even follow the series think about it.

Again, I was just advocating for the devil. I really like anime characters, especially the style of illustration used in shows like GuP, K-On!, Non Non Biyori, etc. As far as I can tell, there's no law against these 'G' rated shows yet.

Gentlemen…..I think you are all missing the real question….do they have to be JAPANESE school girls?

link

Ghost6 has a good point

(Btw those minis are nice)

For one the tank commander will only be the from the waist up (No short skirt) the only two minis that would be full body would be the ones running from the tank.

And the over all appearance of the minis has not been chosen yet. This process will be made with those who have pre-ordered and Eureka who are getting it designed have their say.

So as per normal TMP style this is a storm in a tea cup.

I could easily change the title to female WWII tank crew and it could very well serve the purpouse. The title of the thread was derived from the original proposer on the 300club who tagged them as 15mm Japanese school girls.

Considering that each school represents a particular nation from WW2 it could easily work as "Generic WWII female tank crew"

LGW

And its only a short hop from there to moderns…

15mm women in either type of uniform this project suggests will have uses on the gaming table. The 15mm SF crowd is always looking for more civilians…

"
a wider general public who already think wargamers are a little weird…

Are they wrong? Really?

;-)"

Around my way, "a little weird" means "sober and capable of the occasional hard consonant."

"I think teenage girls in short skirts is horror", on the other hand, means that you just don't have other people on your planet. Out here in Reality Land, parents take their daughters out in public without making them throw on a stitch over their leotards or swimsuits. Even in school, at least one schools uniform has the girls bras frequently visible, which is admittedly more common outside school hours, but one Catholic school near my place has dresses with extra wide armholes and no sleeves.
The government schools, on the other hand, seem to have no authority to tell the girls how to wear their skirts.

Anyone who tries to declare the way other people dress to be obscene usually has a lot of buttock cleavage showing, even when standing straight up…

Gentlemen…..I think you are all missing the real question….do they have to be JAPANESE school girls?

In this particular case, I would say yes, otherwise the name wouldn't be Girls und Panzer. And it's aimed at a Japanese audience, so that kind of makes it necessary to make them Japanese girls, who go to school (going to school is good).

But I do get your point sometimes I really question certain creative choices that Anime makers make, but just like in the West sexualization sells, no matter how negatively it impacts the actual story.

Don't get me wrong, Anime like 'Outbreak Company' and 'Yuushibu' I find hilarious! Not because of to the fanservice, but how they make fun of common anime tropes (and in the case of Yuushibu, also fantasy RPGs). But honestly my tastes generally go for the more serious and fantastical series like Ghost in the Shell (series) or Natsume's Book of Friends. But you can't have anime of that quality all the time, so I also watch less interesting titles…

Interesting that I seem to have acquired several stifles from posting here, yet I am the one accused of being narrow minded? On the other hand if I am gaining stifles for saying I'm not sure we should be portraying teenage girls in inconceivably short skirts, well…

Yes, I am well aware of reality. My 12 year old daughter is one of those who rolls her school skirt up, because that is the 'cool thing to do'. "Role models" like Britney and Miley do nothing to help.

I haven't suggested anyone wanting these figures is in anyway associated with anything, perhaps you ought to ask yourself why you bring that up? :-/

Yes, wargamers are viewed as a little weird. We are already associated with being behind any nutcase who decides to shoot innocents, glorifying war and violence in schools. I know perfectly well that is not the case, and if anything our desire to research both the reasons and motivations behind the theatres and periods we game in, as well as the formations, uniforms, organisations and other related areas, give us a greater understanding of the issues surrounding conflict and thus less likely to engage in it – we do it precisely because we know how to detach fantasy from reality.

However I am protective of my own hobby, and very conscious of the way the media and uneducated general population will seek out any opportunity to blame the actions of one mindless individual on any target group they don't understand, but see as both cause an effect for the suffering of others.

I merely raised the question of the wisdom in fuelling these sorts of groups with such easy ammunition…

Lord Grey Wolf … as I said, maybe I watch too many crime dramas on TV … Like I said, Law & Order SVU, Criminal Minds, etc., etc. … I'm a big advocate of playing what ever games you like … I always say on the Tactical Command site – Do What Works for U … Not me … And remember once you post on any open forum online, you may get comments that don't always agree with you or you may not like … In any "intellectual" discussion, all POV should be welcomed. At least in theroy. No doubt some may see some comments, that they find in their opinion crazy, goofy, unrealistic, etc., etc. … Again, maybe from my POV and predilections on this topic my opinion will differ [greatly] from your's and others. I don't really care for anima … I spent over a decade in the US ARMY as an Infantry Officer. And of the 4 Inf Bns I served in, 3 were Mech. Armed with M113s … Plus I was routinely attached to Tank units. I have a very good working knowledge of histroy and armor/mech warfare as well as experiences … So forgive me if I see cartoon female children in school girl attire crewing brightly painted AFVs and playing soldier … AFVs are dirty, rusty, noisy things, that bounce you around like a carnival ride in many cases. In combat when they get hit it can be quite messy. That being said I don't have a problem with the female IDF crews' uniform … it's "realistic" to me … God forbid those female crews ever suffer a catastrophic hit from an enemies' AT weapon. Or maybe survive and be captured by an enemy who have traditionally hated them. [And yes, McWong … those enemies are Arabs.] And being an American, I've seen too many young female soldiers missing limbs from IEDs, etc. Or sitting in the VA waiting to see a mental heatlh provider. So that's my take on it … you can play with pink tanks with your kids all you want … I just see warfare and the tragety of children being involved not entertaining …

L4, the thing you're missing is that in the world of GuP, operating a tank is seen the same way as archery or study of the naginata (halberd) is in the real world.

It's simply a traditional martial art now practiced almost exclusively by (high upper class) women.

There is very little relationship between operating the tank in Sensha-do and actual fighting. Through the application of Plot Armor and a little pure fing magitech, the individual tank crews are very well protected from death, but their tanks can be taken out.

The contests are functionally equivalent to Kendo competitions.

Or do you also see kendo and other martial arts competitions for kids as glorifying war?

Carrying on from Lion in the Stars point.

This is one of the main disconnects in this discussion.

The characters are not engaging in real combat, but are in a sports competition. Part of the fantasy element is that after WW2 armored combat was transformed into a traditional girls' martial art. It's not meant to be a serious commentary on the morality of war. I also might add, that the JSDF seems not to mind the trivialization of military service. One of the main characters is now used as a recruiting tool for the JSDF mechanized forces. On one of the GuP discussion forums, someone posted a photo of serving Japanese tankers posing for pictures with the voice actresses during some kind of promotional tour.

Then of course we have the alleged perversion aspect. This seems to come down to the girls wearing micro-minis, two bathing scenes, and the two OVAs where the characters wear swimsuits (at the beach no less!). As I have already shown above, the micro-minis are a standard trope in anime, and even feature in shows that are aimed at a female audience and that are written by women. In the case of the bath scene, another anime standard that is so rooted in Japanese culture it even shows up in the heart-warming children's film 'My Neighbor Totoro.

Here is a brief video showing you how ashamed the Japanese are of Girls und Panzer:

YouTube link

I see … my comments may be a little heavy handed based on these recent posts … However, again … it's not my cup of tea … So again … Do What Works for U … Not me …

The IDF crews are using full strength ammo in a real war against real enemies, they won't be firing nerfs or paintballs at other teams.
That said, I don't see the need for special crew figures except as a "bailed out" marker, as it would still be too dangerous.
Also the skirts are quite beyond reality, for school. Still skirts halfway down the thigh would look more normal, but the only non-private school I've seen with very long skirts has them as hipsters, which I believe to be the worst fashion idea since bound feet.

Curiously, it is said that in Japan, anime fans are often seen as lifeless basement-dwelling child-molesting outcasts who are dateless, dangerous and unemployable.

The bath scene has been shocking Western audiences since The Samurai.

Then again, I still don't get why everyone needs to see it. Like so many independent horror films now, where we HAVE to avert the "nobody poops" trope because smeg knows we don't watch films for action or horror or humour, we have to stop annoyingly every so often and not only wait for, but watch, characters taking a dump.

This is cartoon silliness and we are judging cartoon silliness by the standards of things that make sense, which rarely, in turn, makes sense, even when applied to so-called reality TV.

So there is no need to barge into other peoples conversations to tell everyone how disinterested you are.

link

There seems to be some artistic merit in painting a colourful tank, so I might do it anyway, even if it does nothing.

Hmmm

I suspect that no one is going to shift their positions based on this 'conversation' mainly because we all forget that it isn't one: it's people posting their ideas/wants/needs/interests on a forum via the interweb. It only reminds us of a 'proper' conversation because that's what we all used to do, before the days of the web.

So I'll duck out of this thread with a final few points.

1) GeoffQRF: that's pretty much what I said a hundred posts or so ago and I agree completely. I have a (now) 20 year old step daughter. I know (from my time with her) what 12 year old schoolgirls look like, and what they get up to re uniforms and skirts (and, indeed, other stuff).

2) That's not the point. At least, it's not the point I'm making.

3) I agree with much of pretty much all of L4 said, though I haven't got his personal experience to back it up.

4) Have a look at the ladies in the pink outfits above with the pink tanks. And damn saucy they are too. Great stuff. But (and I don't know how many times this has to be said before it sinks in): none of them are twelve years old.The little kids in the second image are having fun and are appropriately dressed. Can you not see the difference?

5) I'm not "barging into anyone's conversation", firstly because it's not – as I said above – a conversation and secondly because no one is being particularly rude to anyone (no one has been dawghoused as far as I'm aware – certainly I haven't been). So no ‘barging'. We are just grown men postulating different and varying opinions on what is and isn't easy for some of us to live with, all of us being different. So…

6) We don't have to agree. And (news just in) it's quite likely that we won't. If the web is good for anything in this world (and the jury is still out on that one, I reckon), it's good for giving people an opportunity to share views and see what other people think.

So: in conclusion.

The world is a strange place. Women in warfare has been debated for centuries and still are. The IDF women tankers and the marching ladies in the pink uniforms with the AKs (all in photos above) just confirm that the debate will continue. Probably forever

However, if you cannot see the difference between actual women fighting actual wars and cartoon jail bait in nazi tanks I'm not sure what more to say.

Saying, with reference to GuP, 'my twelve year old watches it and likes it' is utterly irrelevant. With the best will in the world, your twelve year old doesn't get a vote (on anything). And that's because she's twelve.

I respect the right of people to play games with whatever they chose as long as they are not hurting any one. I respectfully ask that people respect others opinions on this and – when they are busy justifying their hobby to… well, anyone, frankly, that they take a good look at themselves before hand.

If they are cool with what they see when they looking the mirror then everything is just peachy. If not, do something about it.

So I will return to my original posting and say no more here: not my glass of tea.

John T

Ok, except none of the characters in GuP are 12 either.

"Curiously, it is said that in Japan, anime fans are often seen as lifeless basement-dwelling child-molesting outcasts who are dateless, dangerous and unemployable."

What is being spoken of here is the concept of 'Otaku', but with child-molestation added to insult those who like anime. In regards to the real Japanese attitude toward anime fans, we have the following:

"Not all attention has been negative, with the former Prime Minister of Japan Taro Aso also claiming to be an otaku, using this subculture to promote Japan in foreign affairs.[17] In 2013, a Japanese study of 137,734 people found that 42.2% self-identify as a type of otaku. This study suggests that the stigma of the word has vanished, and the term has been embraced by many."

So what if a significant majority admit to being nonces? They're still nonces.