"BMP-2....how cramped is it?" Topic

I've been trying to look at troop scales and I'm trying to work out, how tight/cramped is it being an infantryman in a bmp? I'm finding it hard to picture it, given the lack of pictures of troops inside one

Cheers

Keith

Keith,

There is a picture here:

link

When I was a teenager, I often got to ride in a BMP-1 and that was very cramped.

Jurgen

Looks like you can sit…and erm….that's it !

Thanks!

Keith

It does look horribly cramped. I remember travelling as a teenager in the back seat of a Mini and anything more than about an hour was no fun at all.

This looks even worse with the soldiers headgear bumping the roof and knees folded up near to the chest! I wonder how much it would really degrade performance when disembarking under combat conditions. Sure the BHing and bad attitude on exercise would be a major factor but I think it's a drop in the ocean of the stress overload combat would entail.

Thoughts?

@Skarper: That is one of the reasons for the bulk of a Stryker/MOWAG Piranha.

You should see our nice new SPz Pumas; utter luxury (well almost). They do have a reversing camera:).

Jurgen

Not been aboard the BMP-2 but have gone on a few rides in the ex-NVA BMP1s that the Swedish army bought at a bargin price in the 90's. Found them cramped and there was very little space to handle the more bulky gear like the Carl Gustav and FN MAG when dismounting. The Pbv 302 & the Patria Pasi which I spent far too much time in while serving in Bosnia and Kosovo were more comfortable rides, the Patria in particular. (But I prefered the 302 since it was better protected which proved very usefull indeed.)

Its about doctrine – you cant disembark the vehicle similiar manner you disembark some western APC/IFV (most obvious example being the Daniel Ss allready mentioned XA-185 from which I have some experience).

My friend served as a MG gunner of mechanised infantry squad (in ex-NVA BMP-2) recently, and he said it wasnt "too" cramped, you just have to learn to live with it.
Ofc if you push in the "full" capacity, it will be cramped as hell, but in nowadays case the vehicle carried dismount of 6 and crew of 3.
Fex: Squad MG was "thrown out" by the gunner and assistant capped it (leaving the vehicle first), definetly not the easiest way to handle things, but in comparision, in winter excercise 2011 against CV90, they were comparable in dismounting/to contact speed, and in general performance, BMP-mounts of the armoured brigade beated their asses.

You dont (or cant) fit backpacks inside (simply no room for them – in soviet union, personal GI was much smaller package), mostly they are put hanging to the sides or being carried by supporting elements truck.

But as allways, I would say it will fall more on the men inside, not the vehicle. You can fit (comfortable enough) inside, and can fex. sleep in there while off road, but if you are rag tag militia, well, youre rag tag militia.

I remember sitting in school on "introductory military training" and our retired submarine lieutenant colonel was attaching 2 pictures to the wall…one was BMP-1, and another had M113.
- well guys, which one is better you think?
we of course pointed to BMP. Talked a bit about armamment and armor, but in the conclusion he said:
- Of course americans understand that you need low profile for survilability, but there's no way they can put contractor trooper into BMP ;)

Thanks all

interesting reading :)

Yes, the BMPs I've seen were very cramped … especially compared to an M113. But Barin, what do you mean by contractor trooper ? The US was an all volunteer army when you were in the Russian and I the US Army ?

Legion 4, yes, I think I've used wrong word. We were drafted and you volunteered…. so our teacher meant that you need to be attractive to volunteers to get recruits and stuffing them in a tin can might be not so inspiring…

I think Barin meant there's no way they can force volunteer recruits into the confined spaces of a BMP, you wouldn't get any volunteers.

I've been in teh back of a Hind. That was pretty tight/low headroom as well and I imagine with 10 trooper and a loadmaster (according to the ex-Afghanistan theatre guide showing me) it would have been packed solid. Still, I suppose it does mean no chance of being bounced around the space in the event of a few bumps as you are firmly wedged in, and when they do open the door you all fly out asap to get a bit of space back.

When I was in the U.S. Army stationed at Fort Irwin CA in the 1980's and 1990's I was OPFA, fighting as a Soviet/Warsaw Pack type of unit.

We had M113 Sheridan's Visually modified to appear as T-72's and BMP's and Hummwv's that were Visually modified to appear as BRDM's.

We also had a small number of the real vehicles that we would use at times. We just had to go threw a short 40 hour class to learn how to run operate and maintain the them.

The BMP's were very cramped. Once the 3 man crew put whatever personnel bags (Ruck Sack's) Ice Chest etc, in side there was no room for any dismounts to ride. So we just used them as gun platforms for the Recon. The Sheridan's gave you just as much room but standing up. They worked but were very cramped. We could put a 2 man dismount team in the back but that was about it. And lets not talk about the air quality in the back of a BMP.

Early Sheridan/BMP:

Later Sheridan/BMP:

OSV. M113 Hull with a Bradley Turret.

M113/BMB:

Sheridan/T-72:

Early Hummwv/BRDM:

Later Hummwv/BRDM:

What kind of effect would being in the back of a BMP for any length of time havr on your combat performance?

I would say the same if not worse as it was in a M113, M901 or a M-2 / M3 Bradley.
Evan on those vehicles once you load Ammunition/Explosives, Food/Water, Baggage, Night Vision Equipment, Como Equipment, You name it there is no room in side.

Then you want to put troops in side as well.
On a M-3 Bradley there is a 5 man crew. The 2 observers in the back are wedged between so much Ammunition/Explosives that they have no rum to move.
"What kind of effect would being in the back of a BMP for any length of time have on your combat performance?"

1. Paranoid (You want to know what's out there and your periscope just don't cut it!)
2. Claustrophobic ( No room, not even to be semi construable.)
3. Bad Air, (Dust, Diesel Fumes, Body Odder, Temporary Loss of Hearing.

I rode in the back of one of our BMP-1's at NTC just for about 30 minutes to get to a potions to set up an LP, and I thought I would die. I was so glad I had to climb up that hill for 2 hours, and I was off that BMP!

Understand Barin … as I said before, it is always nice for me to hear from the other side. As I believe you and I were in different Armies about the same time. I was an Infantry Officer, from '79-'90 … And I commanded an M113 Mech Company, '87-'89 … The best armor on the M113 was the front, that is where the engine is ! LOL !!! I dismounted my troopers every chance I could if tactically feasible. Though mechanically reliable, the M113 was "fragile". Not to say the BMP was that much better … but it did have it's good points. @ Ascent, I know in an M113 we rarely were completely "buttoned-up" … ie.: Close all the hatches. In many cases the Driver & Track Commander were "un-buttoned", riding "name-tag" defilade. And the rear top troop hatch was opened and troops would ride with weapons pointing out also in "name-tag" defilade … In some cases as was seen in Vietnam, riding on the top of the M113, making the troopers more exposed, but they had a better chance of survival if the vehicle hit a mine/booby-trap/IED … Which lead to sandbagging the deck inside the carrier … I'd imagine the USSR Troops in the BMP may have done similar in the 'stan ? As far affecting performance being crammed in a vehicle, normally Mech Infantry dismounts often and the carriers don't constantly move … On the other hand, I started out as 2LT/Plt Ldr in the 101, once you left the choppers, you did a lot of walking … so sometimes you wish you had a carrier to ride in … But I think 11th ACR's comments are very valid as well … as it appears we've had similar experiences … BTW … I hate the NTC !!!! And I hate the desert !!! But it is very good training …

I love NTC. I had 5 and 1/2 years as OPFO Recon out there.

I remember a Red Thrust Star article about OPFOR recon, dismounting and hiking up steep hills, whilst the good guys stuck close to their vehicles.

11th ACR,

Those are fascinating and amusing pictures. Many thanks for posting them.

Jurgen

One thing you have to consider, is that there was an unwritten rule, that tankers, especiallu mechanics and motorized infantry were soldiers of 160-170 cm. With my 185 I had less chance of getting into BMP or T-72, and our unarmoured transporters had lots of space in the rear for 4 crew gun ammo and supplies. In Soviet times that menat that a significant % of mot. infantry were recruits from our Asian republics or Caucasus. Our artillery unit had less than 20% of them.
During Afghanistan campaign soldiers were very often riding on top of BMP, as it gave them better control over the situation, even if less protection….

Of course you loved the NTC, 11th ACR ! You were kicking our butts in your backyard !!! @ Barin we used to joke that the USSR must be breeding Dwarves for their AFV crews ! Guess we were not too far off !

I have a picture of a KV-1 company on parade, their commanding officer dwarfs the men, who really look like kids. Guess it's the advantage a conscript system has with a massive pool of manpower.

Imagine that chair you are sitting now is half its heighth, half width and there is no place for legs and roof is at the top of your head..and you are sitting it with another guy :>

Very very cramped (Ive been into BMP1, and it was quite unpleasant experience :)

Its a model but it shows size of transport seats to gunner seat nicely..

Each smallish seat takes two infantrymen..

T-62 was the last european statured friendly vehicle of the Soviet era.

Nice model !

One thing you have to consider, is that there was an unwritten rule, that tankers, especiallu mechanics and motorized infantry were soldiers of 160-170 cm.

Undoubtedly a fair bit of the problems with a lack of space that was experienced by Swedish units was caused by the facts that the first batches of conscripts serving in BMPs had been selected according to the old standards and height requirements of the infantry. (Basicly the units had been ordinary infantry when they men were selected for service but had been converted to MEch infantry when they reported to their units 2-3 years after selection)

link

Nice pics 11th !

youtube.com/watch?v=ERNmutxj2wg
YouTube
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As I said before… 11thACR, you guys had far more fun than a human being deserves b'slapping us poor beknighted souls who had to go through a rotation at the NTC! But the training was second to none in value.

We tried our best.
Some said we were just sparing partners.
We were a generation, or two behind the times on weapons systems and any thing else out there in that was from the high tech world.
No GPS's till around 95 or 96 or thermals on our tanks.
I did my last rotation summer of 96, and I was still using a PRC-77. And no secure communications.

YouTube link
YouTube link

Hard to forget my 2 rotations at the NTC … But again, some great training though …

52 rotations at the NTC.

Scout Platoon, Headquarters and Headquarters Company 1st Battalion 63rd Armor Regiment, 177th Armored Brigade, (32nd Guards Motorized Rifle Regiment, 60th Guards Motorized Rifle Division, Opposing Forces), Fort Irwin, California from March 1989 – February 1990. As a Section Sergeant, Completing 13 force on force rotations.

And, returned to Fort Irwin California, and was assigned to the Scout Platoon, Headquarters and Headquarters Company 1st Battalion 63rd Armor Regiment, 177th Armored Brigade, and the Scout Platoon, Headquarters and Headquarters Troop 1st Squadron, 11th Armored Cavalry Regiment, (32nd Guards Motorized Rifle Regiment, 60th Guards Motorized Rifle Division, Opposing Forces) from March 1993 – June 1996. As a Section Sergeant, Platoon Sergeant and S-2 Intelligence Operations Sergeant Completing 39 force on force rotations.

It's changed a lot in the years that I have been gone.
YouTube link
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I think my last rotation was in '88 (?) … probably missed you … or you missed me !

Yea, from March 88 – February 89 I was with the Scout Plt, HHC 2/16th Inf at Ft Riley KS.

I hated Riley.

Fortunately never been there !