"Welsh spearmen- length of spears" Topic

Iīve searched but canīt find anything about the length of the spears that welsh spearmen would have used during the battle of bannockburn..anyone know?

It's a guess, but I'd suggest anything between 6ft and 9ft.

William: We'll make spears. Hundreds of them, long spears. Twice as long as a man.
Hamish: That long?
William: Aye.
Hamish: Some men are longer than others.
Campbell: Your mother been telling you stories about me again?

Dan

You beat me to it, cacique!

William: We'll make spears. Hundreds of them, long spears. Twice as long as a man.
Hamish: That long?
William: Aye.
Hamish: Some men are longer than others.
Campbell: Your mother been telling you stories about me again?

But what do these Scots know about the length of Welsh spears?

Lol

Dan

I read somewhere that the Scottish spears were approximately 12' in length.

I read somewhere that the Scottish spears were approximately 12' in length.

Yes, but about about Welsh spears as requested by the OP?

If its the case that the Welsh adapted their weapon system to cope with the arrival of Norman Knights then longer spears would make sense. I would go with 9 to 12 foot spears myself.

IIRC those spears were occasionally thrown, hence would be shorter.

Wales at the time was heavily wooded. Using a 9-12ft pikw in such terrain isn't easy.

So, the spears of the Welsh got longer upon the arrival of the Normans? Interesting.

Dan :)

The question was about the Battle of Bannockburn which involed the Scots vs. the English. So I assumed that the question was reall about Scottish spears.

Stu iirc Welsh spears, sometimes, were thrown with great force at short range according to Gerard of Wales. That reminds me of Byzantine practice, albeit against infantry, again with longer spears.

Armoured men on horses Dan it makes spears get longer. You know it makes sense. Who among us when confronted with a line of armoured men on horses would not think I wish my spear was longer.

Actually the Welsh seem to have been innovative when it came to tactics and weapons adopting bows, longer spears and knightly cavalry in fairly short order in order to cope with the Normans.

The question was about the Battle of Bannockburn which involved the Scots vs. the English. So I assumed that the question was really about Scottish spears.

I think the OP was referring to the Welsh contingent in the English army.

Is there any recounting of a pitched battle between Welsh and Anglo-Normans? I can't think of one. The Welsh, as the Irish, fought more of a guerilla type warfare against their heavily armed foes. "Battles" were very small and of short duration. Long spears would not be required and in fact would be inimical to swiftly moving about….

RR Davies The Age of Conquest 1063 -1415 is the place to start. Lots of detail there.

Is there any recounting of a pitched battle between Welsh and Anglo-Normans? I can't think of one.

Aberystwyth 1116
Crug Mawr 1136
Coleshill 1157

The Welsh, as the Irish, fought more of a guerilla type warfare against their heavily armed foes. "Battles" were very small and of short duration. Long spears would not be required and in fact would be inimical to swiftly moving about….

The OP question specifically relates to the Battle of Bannockburn.

Giraldus Cambrensis, writing about 1200, calls them "very long" but does not give more detail. At Maes Moydog in 1295, the chronicler Trivet says that the Welsh spearbutts were fixed in the ground and the formation repulsed an English cavalry charge till the archers shot them down, so I suspect they were no shorter than Scottish spears that seem to have been used in the same way with similar results.

link – but of course they may have been drawn shorter to suit the artist.

Oh : "Who among us when confronted with a line of armoured men on horses would not think I wish my spear was longer."

Dude, you're killing me here!

Dan

These pictures have near horizontal spears not restricted by space:

Illustrations of a Welshman from a 13th century Latin text of The Laws of Hywel Dda Peniarth 28
Illustrations of Welshmen from a 14th century Welsh text of The Laws of Hywel Dda NLW MS. 20143A

MIRROR SITES
Illustrations of a Welshman from a 13th century Latin text of The Laws of Hywel Dda Peniarth 28
Illustrations of Welshmen from a 14th century Welsh text of The Laws of Hywel Dda NLW MS. 20143A

Druzhina
Illustrations of Costume & Soldiers

Great pic's there and long spears by the look of it.

Thanks all…So roughly double the height of the user it is

(I liked the braveheart Quote :-D )

Qouted from Duncans link;

"A Flemish observer wrote of Welsh soldiers, in around 1300:
Edward, King of England, came to Flanders. He brought with him many soldiers from the land of Wales. In the very depth of winter they were running about bare-legged. They wore a red robe. They could not have been warm. The money they received from the King was spent in milk and butter. They would eat and drink anywhere. I never saw them wearing armour"

So no armour, helmets or mail!!!!!!? Dam!!!

"In the very depth of winter they were running about bare-legged."

Hence short spears!

Dan

Might reflect that winters were milder in Flanders?