"Larger Star Fleet Universe Minis?" Topic

Amarillo Design Bureau is considering making a larger version (6-12 inches) of its minis. We're seeking input about the following:

size/scale
material (metal, plastic, resin)

1/3788 Fed Cruiser is 3.00 inches.
1/3125 Fed Cruiser is 3.50 inches.
1/2500 Fed Cruiser is 4.5456 inches.
1/2000 Fed Cruiser is 5.63 inches
1/1894 Fed Cruiser is 6.00 inches.
1/1500 Fed Cruiser is 7.57 inches.
1/1000 Fed Cruiser is 11.36 inches.
1/650 Fed Cruiser is 17.48 inches.

Feedback would be greatly appreciated.

There are already plastic model kits of the Fed Cruiser in 1/650, 1/1000, and 1/2500, so there is no point in making anything of the CA in these scales. That being said, making any of the OTHER ships in 1/650, 1/1000 or 1/2500 would probably be welcome from the larger SF modeling community, especially 1/1000 or 1/2500 (the latter has some gamers using that scale as well). 1/650 is a fairly dead scale, however.

For material, I would say resin would be most appropriate for all scales, though 1/2500 might be well supplemented with cast metal (like for the warp engines FREX).

Damon.

Sounds good to me.

I'd like to see some in sizes comparable to the Furuta and Johnny Lightning offerings.

Who would have the room to play at 1/650 scale? As impressive as it would be. That maybe a bit too much for me.

Personally, I've always favored smaller vs. larger. There's just something appealing in making it around four inches or smaller. Given your range, and given Garand's coherent perspective, I'd think 1/2500 scale would be most appealing to me.

I'd also appreciate plastic over resin or metal, but understand the manufacturing costs are significantly more difficult to start the process.

1/2500

Well, using these in a game of Space Cadets Dice Duel on a larger board would be a lot of fun. I'm already considering doing it for the 2500 line.

As an addition to my comments above, existing models for the Klingon D-7 are in 1/650 scale and 1/1000. I don't recall a D-7 in 1/2500 scale right now, but that's a good candidate to be released by Round2. Also a Romulan BoP is available in 1/650 scale (recently re-released in the last few years), and again not in the other two scales (there is a non-scale Adversaries set that includes a BoP, D-7 and Feddie CA, IIRC smaller than 1/2500 scale…). From what I have seen, most new kits (i.e. not re-releases) will be in either 1/1000 or 1/2500 scales.

There is also a very active "aftermarket" and garage kit industry as well, so there may be some duplication of effort in these scales, or 1/537 & 1/1400 for that matter. There's a lot of material out there…

Damon.

The other consideration will be the cost, The current 2400 line is pretty affordable. Most of the ships are less than $10. USD The new 2500 ships run start at $10 USD mark. How much would one of these larger ships run? There would also be less demand for them because of the size.

I have over 100 of the Starline 2200-2400 ships, and I keep adding to that lead pile. I also have about 100 of the smaller scale that Task Force Games made.I do not see me getting more that 5 to 10 of a much larger scale.

I would however get them.

I have a bunch of these:

link

That I use for playing the old Zocchi Star Fleet Battle Manual, unfortunately they are in an odd scale, 1:1600, and there is not much else available in that scale.

They have the advantage of being cheap, and easy to assemble.

And when I say a bunch, I mean it. I have about 4 sets assembled and painted, and another 35-40 sets in my kit stash.

There are already a large number of 1/2500 resin Trek kits out there, and all the Enterprises are available in that scale. The AMT cadet series adds the D7 and Romulan Bird of Prey.

I would love to see the current line up for the 2400s updated. I never understood why ADB decided to switch their scale (the ADB 2500s) to a larger scale for gaming considering they already have Fed Com and SFB which needs a large table space to play. I undersand the Mongoose joint venture influenced that decision , but I wish they would have kept in mind their original base as well when it comes to scale. I stopped buying ships from ADB when they changed to their 2500s because of the weird scale. I would have updated my fleets for Fed Com if they would have updated their molds for the 2400s or gone 1/17000

Garand is correct in what he is saying. As a collector of 1/1000 and 1/2500 scale ships I would love to see the other races/empire's ships made in these scales. I have seen 1/1000 scale used for demo games, but I believe that would be too large, but I would kill to have the CAs of all the races/empires in this scale.

1/2500 is a very popular scale with Trek garage kit and scratchbuilders. Without doubt, I'd go with 1/2500. It opens up the SFB universe to a new audience who, up to now, may have been curious, but unwilling to venture into SFB because the scale does not match their collection.

I'd be delighted to see 1/2500 SFB ships on the market.

Going to disagree with Malleman. I started out with SL 2400's, and have all but dropped them in favor of the SL 2500's. The jump in detail is so much worth it, that the duplications in my collection mean nothing to me. Plus the SL2500s don't seem to have an aversion from the concept of multi-part, which has compromised the SL2400s IMHO (I picked up an old SL2200 Feddie CL, better casting and better all around model than the SL 2400 version IMHO).

Damon.

Garand, Do you play SFB or Fed Com with the SL 2500s on a tournament size hex map? If so how big is your mat?

Sorry, I should have been more clear in my point about the change in scale from ADB. It would have made more sense to keep the scale they had to accommodate SFB and Fed Com players not just marketing them to ACTASF players and the off scale collectors.

I am not saying there wasn't an improvement in detail, just that I wasn't planning on switching scales. I already have three scales of ships I paint if you include my 1/1000s and 1/2500s. I would have been willing to drop to 1/7000 scale ADB minis because my table would have looked huge at that scale!

I do not currently play either SFB or FedCom. I moved to Starmada's conversion when that came out, and mostly only play ACTA at this point. WHile games like SFB & FC certainly have its attractions, I'd rather play hexless games with home-made terrain.

I don't think the point of the SL2500 line was to accomidate the SFB/FC players: the SL2200/2400 lines have been around for…a very long time. The point is to attract new blood. I personally prefer the larger models and better details, and ultimately if the SL2500 models were done in 1/3788 scale, would older players bother to buy them if they already have a complete collection of older models?

I definitely would not want to see 1/7000 scale models either. I thought FASA's 1/3900 scale models were a bit smaller than I liked!

BTW, if ADB were to produce bigger ship models, I would want them in 1/1000 scale, since that is the primary scale I build Trek in…!

Damon.

Instead of larger minis (of which I may buy 3-4 for FC duels), I'd like to see the re-imaged models made for the 2500 line scaled to the 2400 (1/3788) line. The new designs are great improvements over the 2400 line and would get me buying SFU minis again (haven't purchased any since the 2500 line was released); I'd be more inclined to pick up models from fleets that I don't yet have, and would end up adding to or replacing many of the 2400 series model in fleets I currently own.

1/3788 or 1/3125 in plastic given the option!

p.s. Malleman, the 2400's are still for sale, ADB are keeping both as I understand it.

The larger the ship, the less it will be used for gaming but the more likely that collectors and modellers will buy them. As was stated, 1:2500 and 1:1000 are the big scales for Trek ships currently and the big 3 ships are already avilable in plastic for those scales (maybe not the Rom BOP in 1:1000 though) so you probably can not out detail or under price those ships but adding SFU ships to those scales could get you a whole new market of buyers who want more ships that look like they fit together in that universe.

There are other fan designed and knock off ships out there but they can be quite expensive from smaller garage shops so you do have the opportunity to have SFU ships priced competatively in that market.

You will have to know what else is out there to pick the right ships and price them correctly so here are a few links to look through for what is currently out there and what the modellers are looking for:
federationmodels.com
link
link

I agree that the smaller 2400 series is ideal for 1" hex based games like SFB and FC. The larger 2500 scale just gets a bit impractical to play on a 1" hex, and moving to a larger hex map gets bigger than most tables.

I had a similar problem playing Babylon 5 Wars with the original B5W minis, many of which were so big they required multiple stands. The Fleet Action scale was a welcome change for this style of play.

The 'scale-less' free-form sort of play of the A Call to Arms play is ideal for large models and the large models just look great on the table (for both Babylon 5 and Starfleet).

As far as a scale larger than the 2500 series, I'd also recommend the 1/2500 scale which appears to be the most commonly used scale of existing Star Trek injection molded kits. A scale larger than 1/2500 seems to be impractical for gaming, unless you are doing one of those floor size games like you see at conventions. But it would seem ideal for modelers. Many of whom would welcome more starship designs, particularly out of the classic era. Furthermore a compatible scale would allow a lot of mixing and kitbashing (which is quite popular with Star Trek modelers).

I am looking at the other direction for gaming. I want fleets not squadrons on the table. So smaller ships not larger. But I imagine the profit margin is bigger on a 1/1000 scale ship then a 1/7000 ship.

A friend told me that I should clarify that "metal" = pewter/white metal, not die-cast.

I'm still trying to learn all the terminology; please bear with me.

I wouldn't go any bigger than about 6" for SFB gaming minis.

However, significantly larger ships might be fun for fighter games, more as terrain than as a ship.

Personally, I kinda like 1/3900 (aka 1"=100m), makes a good size cruiser, but keeps the smallest ships a usable size. Fighters, shuttles and missiles get a bit tiny at that scale, though.

BTW, ADB did do a series of small Fleet Action scale models that did fit the 1" hexes.

The models were very underwhelming, lacked any detail whatsoever. In order to achieve the level of detail for these smaller scale models, you most like will need CG design and 3D printed masters, and most likely cast in resin.

I made this night light for my son using some of my stash:

Unrepentant Werewolf at work, I was aware of the continued sales, but thank you for the heads up.

Steve Cole says thanks for all the input. He wrote: This has been an idea of mine for years, since somebody showed me some non-trek ships he had created in resin for some other purpose. I talked with one supplier back then but he just suddenly stopped answering email for no apparent reason. When Mongoose showed up, one of the earliest conversations including eventually doing these large pieces.

As for what these are for, the six inch size seems too big for gaming but not totally impossible so I was obviously thinking of display pieces that nominally qualified as gaming pieces.

I was originally thinking something around six inches would be a nice model, but there is no scale at that point (1/1900) which has any existing market. I doubt I'd have time next year to create an entirely new market/scale of my own, but it is a thought for later.

The two scales everybody talks about a 1/2500 which is about 4+3/4 inches long and hardly seems impressive or worth the bother, or 1/1000 which is about 12 inches long and would require a major amount of work (and money) to start production.

We're taking a look at 1/2500 but I'm not feeling the passion I did when I started asking questions two days ago. I see a lot of little markets (any number of scales and materials) but no one big market that would work. (Everybody wants big ships, but no sizable group was the SAME big ships.) Whatever we do, we'll do them all the same scale. (Unless we decide to do everything in two scales to reach two markets, but each line would be one scale.)

As for material, I never really considered anything other than resin (pressure injected resin, not spin cast resin) because of the cost. Pewter is just too expensive in sizes six inches or up, and plastic is not even remotely practical (several thousand dollars per ship for the mold). I can see why you want it, but I want stuff nobody can afford to make too. (I need a 1/72 Maus for my collection of Nazi tanks and the only one ever made is the historically accurate but useless prototype with no turret.) As for die-cast metal, those costs are absurd even compared to the absurd cost of plastic.

As for pre-painted, those have to be done in China in lots of 10,000 and I don't think there is a market for that, so, no, it's not going to happen. If you really want a big display piece I'm sure some master modeller will accept money to paint one for you.

We are looking at doing some bases seven or eight inches across but that's a separate project. To be in scale with the existing 1/3788 or 1/3125 ships the starbase would be 24 or 28 inches across which is impractical for gaming.

Several years ago some guy did some 1/650 scale ships for us (four or five ships, maybe four or five copies of each) in vacu-formed plastic. We sold them, but he got into the habit of taking orders and never making the ships, which was obviously not going to work. (The ADB insistance on stock in hand before we take orders started about that time.) We told him we would not sell ships any more until he delivered them first, but that we'd pay for whatever he sent. In one case, it took four months for him to deliver the model and the customer had cancelled the order. We put the model on the cart to see if somebody would buy it as we had paid for it, and the guy went ballistic, accusing us of making the model ourselves (like we knew how) to cheat him and refused to make any more ships. Frankly, if somebody out there can do this sort of stuff, talk to me and we'll make a deal. (We cannot sub-license but we can sell the ships you make.)

Frankly, if somebody out there can do this sort of stuff, talk to me and we'll make a deal. (We cannot sub-license but we can sell the ships you make.)

Makes sense, you'd be contracting for the making of minis that way.

I might know someone who can do the mastering, not sure if he can do the casting. I'll point him your direction.

Thanks, Lion, that may be helpful. :)

Just a quick note about the scale of ships in the Starline 2500s. Mongoose was adamant that the larger scale was needed for tabletop play. ACTA was their area of expertise and ADB finally gave in on that. We insisted that the Starline 2400s would continue for hex-map play and for anyone who wanted them -- as long as people buy them, we'll make them. We'll be creating new ships for the line in the near future.

Still, we don't want to alienate all the people who bought the Starline 2500s in good faith. Therefore, we'll be continuing that line as well.

We're really excited by all the possibilities and that's one reason I'm visiting this forum. We want you to know what we are doing.

I'm no fan of pre-paints. Generally I feel that the quality is not good enough for my work and reworking it to clean up stuff that should have been cleaned up and repainting it exceeds the value of having someone paint it in China.

If you are to produce a large scale model kit of the SFB ships, you should also include a base perhaps some thing suitable for play and an optional fancier one for display. Decals would be a must. You might even want to consider making display stands to mount mutliple ships (much like the AMT/Ertl 3-Piece sets).

You definitely don't want to do metal in that size. Mongoose attempted that with their Armageddon size ships for Babylon 5 ACTA, it was an epic failure. So much metal in the molds cause them to burn up. If you didn't get a warped model you probably got a bunch of slag or chunks of rubber mold in your kit.

Since 1/2500 scale is also common with many of the AMT/Ertl 3-piece sets of canon Star Trek models (now sold separately) and a lot of the canon and non-canon unlicensed garage shop kits you would become very popular with the modelling crowd. Furthermore, since there are a number of garage shop kits out there in that scale, there should be lots of people experienced in making kits of that size and type in resin.

link

The 1/2500 scale is probably about as large as you can go and still be practical for gaming. In fact many of the B5 Wars ships were that big and worked well with the ACTA free form game play.

The 1/2500 Galaxy, Ambassador and Sovereign class Enterprise kits and the Romulan D'Deriax Warbird were probably the only kits that were bigger than the Mongoose Armageddon ships. I don't think there's too many SFB ships that are of the size of those TNG era ships. Even the Mars class Battleship shouldn't be that big.

link

Another thing to consider is if you really want to get into the model realm is space stations in that scale. The Deep Space 9 kit was made to 1/2500 scale to match up with the 3-piece set kits. A 1/2500 scale kit of the K-7 Space Station, which may end up a bit bigger than the DS9 kit could mount flight stands and serve as a neat way to display one's fleet collection.

One way to cut down on tooling costs for injection molding is to communize parts into a single tool. SFB Federation ships would be fairly easy as you can make a tool for warp nacells and saucer sections which are common to most ships. Unique parts (secondary hull, deflector dish, ect) would then be cast in resin.

I'd prefer to see the price reduced and/or quality improved rather than the size increased.

My Trekkie/artist friend has been notified of a business opportunity.

Hopefully he checks that email reasonably often and will soon get in touch with ADB if he is interested/able to take on the project.

Since I never did play SFB with minis (just counters), are the Battle Station and/or Starbase models to the same scale as the Starline 2400 ships?

Lion, I don't think the BATS and Starbase are anywhere near to scale with the Starline 2400 ships. The Starbase miniature is what, a little over 2" in diameter now. To be in scale with the Starline 2500 ships, it'd have to be about 28" in diameter.

@Billclo: that's what I thought. Starbases would have to be freaking hyuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuge. Might be something to scratchbuild, though.

If I where do anything close to Trek gaming again with miniatures it would be with 1/2500 scale models.

Lion,

There has been discussion of making larger bases, but size has not been decided as far as I know. I like the look of a 14" base next to ships, but it's unwieldy to say the least.