"The Forlorn Hope how to deppict them" Topic

Hi Gents, am looking at doing some basing for my TYW Spanish Imperialists and thinking what formation I would need to depict the forlorn hope type units. Did they form up as per the usual wings in the Pike and shot formations or in a looser formation? Would this formation change from this period to say the ECW or from army to army or even have national characteristics? Any help would be appreciated and my thanks in advance. Cheers

Pissed?

Don't know are you? Still looking for a answer to a genuine question to anyone reading, how do you portray your forlorn hope units (looking at 28mm myself)? Hopefully a somewhat less asinine answer than Chokidar's will be helpful. Cheers

Chokidar was actually making a serious point. It was common practice for a Forlorn Hope to be given alcohol (spirits) before an assault.

Professional 17th Century infantry like the Spanish was a lot more flexible than they get credit for in most wargames rules and history books. They would expand and contract their formation as needed. The basic formation would be the same as for a "manga" supporting a "escaudron" of pikes with distances set at what the English refered to as "order". This would also be the formation used when moving on the battlefield as it was easier to control and more mobile than a formation moving at either loose or close order. (At least as long as you wanted to keep an orderly formation.) Loose order was higly vulnerable to attacks by cavalry or enemy melee infantry and would only be used in terrain that gave protection from such attacks and if there was a tactical advantage to be gained from using a more extented or even "disbanded" formation.

One thing that set the Spanish apart from their enemies was the continued use of the arquebus in the shape of the the advanced and improved model called a "caliver" in English. Though it had grown in lenght it was still handier than the musket and weighed 50-100% less than the half and full muskets. It's lower calibre also allowed the soldier to carry twice the powder and shot of a musketeer.
The troops armed with arquebus/caliver were often chosen to act as independent detachments/forlorn hopes because of their greater mobility (which is why the Bavarians/Leaugists also retained a small number of calivermen in their regiments until the 1630's) though they did sacrifice some firepower, particularly against fully armoured cavalry which is why proper terrain cover was essential for their survival on the battle field.

I chose to depict the forlorn hope on the table at the moment of their 'charge' – it makes them stand out from the other units.

I figured it may have been made up from men from various company's so I gave them different coat colours and a mix of weapons.

To break up the regimented look, I based them three to a 40x40mm base.

Paul – Paul's Modelling Workshop

Bumsore!

I am not adverse to battlefield humor Major Bumsore. But a one word reply to a honest question? As for having to shore up ones courage for dangerous missions, that's a given.8-} Daniel S and Paul from PMW, thanks just what I was looking for will have to find out more of course regarding this "odd" formation. Like the basing and base size Paul( those are the Worlord stuff as well? I am using them), and see the mixed weapon idea makes sense, thus for the $panish some Musket some sword and buckler,arquebus( basically slightly shorter and no musket rest) and a sprinkle of halbards as said I would assume they would hold sectors of terrain that would afford a modicum of protection especially against cavalry. My thanks Gents, now have some great ideas on how to do them. Oh and ed and bumsore to all 8-D Cheers

FWIW, if I deployed a forlorn hope in a game I'd just use figures from one of the existing units. A forlorn hope was made up of volunteers from all units, so if you're picky you might want to select figures from more than one unit. Me, I'm not that fussy.

In my ECW armies I have a couple of units of Commanded Muskets. In practice, I'd probably just use them if I needed a forlorn hope. So, standard figures in standard formations.

If I was more of a modeller than I am a wargamer, I might consider adding a few speciality figures of guys who have obviously imbibed a bit too much Dutch Courage …

I tend to use musketeers from a variety of units put together in a commanded shot formation. I base my musket in 4's and use 4 bases (each from a different regiment) for my Forlorn Hope.

It's pretty easy to get hold of musket-armed troops in aggressive poses from a variety of manufacturers which helps.

Cheers

Steve

LOL there has to be a figure out there with a tankard full of ambrosia. I had forgottern the whole commanded shot thing so perhaps a "thinned out" shot unit with slightly less figures depicted and a "Spanish style" forlorn hope thanks.

What about majority of troops dead or wounded but a couple either charging into battle or placing a charge?

Wow FoxtrotPapaRomeo that is a real "forlorn" hope :-) I've done something as a casualty counter with dead and dying figures and think I'm going to add more like ypou said for effect perhaps some banners to capture. Anyway thanks chaps, all these ideas have got creative juices going.

Yes Zargon, Warlord Games plastics with a few conversions. Glad you like them.

Forelorn Hopes in the ECW were exclusively storming parties. They were bodies of commanded shot formed as a normal body of shot and deployed slightly ahead of the main infantry line. At Naseby and Marston Moor they were posted in front of the left hand most infantry unit.

I would depict them as a body of shot in "order" rather than "close order" or "open order". As mentioned they were drawn from several units so a mix of coat colours could be used. No standards as these would stay with the home formation. They would have the normal ratio of officers and NCOs though.

Is there any reason for basing any ECW figures in some sort of skirmish order -it seems not?

Yes indeed there is – in Ireland and Scotland at any rate. Parties of commanded musketeers were used to hold and snipe from woods and other covered areas. Montrose used them at Fyvie and O'Neill at Benburb for instance both during the approach of Monro's army to the battlefield and in the woods on his left during the battle itself. These would have been in some sort of skirmish order.

Whoops that should have said "were NOT exclusively storming parties"!

Forlorn hopes on an ECW battlefield- and I suspect TYW- would have been formed bodies of musketeers in standard order

Though the manuals have spaces such as double distance, I doubt that it would have been used in battle

Even troops behind hedges or in woods, unless there were only a handful, would have attempted to maintain order and depth,