"Tango, enough with the politics/current events links" Topic

ROFLMAO!!!

Well said, klepley………….

Five new topics a day…

Seems reasonable on the surface.

What it means to me: we would be restricting the ability of the vast majority of members because a vocal minority (no disrespect, just my opinion) believes ONE member is posting too much and or his posts are meaningless, upsetting, disruptive, etc.

Bong67: seems fair.

Garrison: well put.

Respectfully,

J. P. Kelly

Klepley: LOL, that lightened the mood!

It also lessens the chances of upsetting people who find gaming very recent events disturbing.

Once you start with the goal of not upsetting people we're all doomed. There are ancient battles that certain folks are still prone to getting all fighty about, do we worry about their upsets as well?

Lots of people don't post at all – perhaps we should insist everyone has to post a comment at least once a week? That would get everyone involved.

I always notice a lot of new names in these 'Let's gang up on X' threads.
Maybe TMP should instigate a Weekly Witch Hunt thread to keep those folks involved and feeling like they have something to valuable to contribute.

I've been a member here since 2002 and before Tango joined in 2010 we had no problem with the volume of posts but did have a wider variety of voices speaking, at least on the front page. If he didn't post so prolifically, we might have others doing more. Also, we don't necessarily need more front page topics but rather a way of threads which generate discussion remaining on the front page for longer. What used to make the topics on the front page so interesting was the discussion they generated. Things are just not the same when those topics become harder to find and are replaced with posts which are just copy and paste jobs or links which generate no discussion. I can easily find most of the basic information I need from the web by googling but I miss the more entertaining and personal stuff I used to read on TMP.
I think Cambria's suggestion is a good one and would go a long way towards returning TMP to what it was.
I also think we need to shift the focus back towards more wargame related topics. Some of the boards like "needs more boobies"I think we could do without completely and others put onto the plus boards where they could easily be turned off. Also we need better editing where topics on the gaming boards which should clearly be on the plus boards like those about films or broadcast entertainment are moved to those boards like they are on other forums.
All the best,
George.

Based on what happens in the Napoleonic boards, I'm wondering if there needs to be a 250 year moratorium on topics…
:-)

I also think we need to shift the focus back towards more wargame related topics. Some of the boards like "needs more boobies"I think we could do without completely and others put onto the plus boards where they could easily be turned off. Also we need better editing where topics on the gaming boards which should clearly be on the plus boards like those about films or broadcast entertainment are moved to those boards like they are on other forums.

Oh, yes, please start an HOA to approve all posts for content and correct placement in the forums. Make sure none are over a certain allowed length and feature the approved vocabulary and punctuation as well.
That will really make the place 'correct'.

All these stories about how 'TMP used to be sooooooo diverse and full of useful information but… woe woe woe it is now a desert, bereft of content… woe!'
That just doesn't pass the smell test. At all.
Really, can anyone HONESTLY say they've prevented themselves from posting a thread on TMP because 'OMG TANGO!'?

There's always been a contingent that has wanted TMP to be a comfy little echo chamber for their narrow band of interests… and NOTHING else allowed.
Similar forces whining about Tango driving away diverse content AND fearing that they might have to MAKE THE EFFORT TO NOT READ a post that isn't precisely what they're interested in… which is it?

I'm not talking about approval of posts, just that they go where they should. If you read Lead Adventure the posts on that forum are moved to an appropriate board by a moderator if they are in the wrong place but content as such isn't approved. I want things to be classified properly but certainly not censored or pre-approved.
All the best,
George

Bill is Tango01.

Sooooo….anyone played any good miniature games lately?

To be crystal clear:

*I never asked to have anything done to Tango. Nor would I suggest he be banned or limited more than any one else.*

**I also never claimed to be driven away from the site. I know people who have been, or have been coming less, or have expressed private annoyance at the same thing. Though I'm sure others come more now.**

***It isn't about just skimming by his posts. They clutter the board often with repeat posts, often empty political drive by postings, and his activity from much of this pushes other stuff off the front page. He doesn't interact on his own posts and his contribution much noise and no signal. If the criteria for his "contribution" is that he says "you might find this interesting", then so do pop up ads and spam. This isn't so much what he posts so much as how and that he is completely unapproachable or able to be engaged about it like anyone else would be.***

****I don't think this is a problem to be solved by new rules or mechanisms or policing. I just wish Tango would be approachable and be able to be engaged about it. But he is untouchable and unapproachable. We are arguing over someone who takes no part in nor responsibility for his behavior here. That's unusual and, to be honest, frustrating.****

It doesn't help that John is making this about him again. Get over yourself man.

What I don't like is that nothing any of us say here has any affect on Tango himself. He might as well be a robot, or a spam ad program. His detractors complain. His defenders defend. And nothing any of us does has the slightest impact on his behavior because he doesn't engage in any of it (or very little except to say thanks to his, um, "supporters").

I don't know of anyone else like that on this site. No one person seems to cause so much division yet is so disengaged from it. We might as well be arguing over an automated pop up ad system that half of us enjoy and half of us don't. Even Big Mean Elf was engaged in the community at least in some form.

But, again, little will come from it except time wasted. Tango is the untouchable. The one person in this community that seems immune to criticism and or even any kind of engagement at all. We might as well be talking about a wall. He certainly is not going to modify his behavior in any way as a normal member of the community might do. Even John you can talk to when he's being ornery.

Caesar: I will address you directly, for all the good it will do.

Why try to add reasonable comments to a discussion when you can simply insult people instead, eh? Badly, even, since you don't know the definition of sycophant.

Well, there is the dictionary definition of sycophant, and then there is common usage to make a point. Does using that kind of straw man argument count as the dictionary definition of pedant?

While I understand that some people may not like Tango's prolific posts, some of us do (and – like anything – I'm sure most TMPers couldn't care less).

There are some people that are actually harmful to this community. Save your witch hunt for them. Just because you find someone annoying doesn't give you the right to bully them away.

I never asked for anything to be done to him. Bullying would be making fun of him relentlessly for no reason. This is the first time I have spent any amount of time criticizing him. In fact, there is a previous thread where I defended him and tried to find a middle ground. I used to give Tango the benefit of the doubt.

Nice didn't work. Maybe blunt will.

I find people who can't make a point without insulting those with opinions differing than their own to be annoying. I won't start a thread on that, but in your case I can spend my money on other products. There are plenty of companies out there that don't come here to insult the membership and bully users over pet peeves.

I did make a point. Many times. I'm sorry it's not what you agree with, but it is neither bullying nor insulting to be critical of the behavior of someone that is impervious to civil engagement personally.

It's your right to spend your money on whatever you like of course.

It seems to be making some people, myself included, to enjoy TMP less and for some to visit less. I scroll down the front page and the ratio of good posts to spam is so poor it feels like it is not worth the effort a lot of the time.

I absolutely agree with this. 90% of the GARBAGE that Tango posts is not related to wargaming (politics or defense industry) or it is a repost of something someone posted earlier from their OWN blog. I think I've maybe found 2 of all his posts worth viewing and those were links to interesting blogs.

I do think we are going to see many TMPers migrating to other forums if this continues. I already know 4 people (ex-paying members) in my gaming group who have left these boards and have encouraged me to do the same but I hold out the hope that Bill will get his act together.

Bill is Tango01.

Haha! That crossed my mind. Or that he is some kind of spambot that has been programmed with a very sophisticated target marketing matrix.

I want to keep reading Tango's post.

It doesn't help that John is making this about him again. Get over yourself man.

Bovine excrement, sir. Bovine excrement.

To go back to the original problem of the current affairs posts how about a rules change. Any discussion on the modern boards be limited to events up to 10 years from present. Anything else, no matter if it be wargames related or not be considered "current affairs" and be discussed only in the Blue Fez.

No need for a change, the rule is already there:
"Can I discuss politics here?
Recent politics are not allowed. [POLITICS RULE] Discussion of political events more than ten years in the past is allowed."
TMP link

I'm sorry Keith for wanting to use words properly and expecting others do the same. It's merely the basis for all communication.

You impassionately jumped on the bandwagon 'to do something' about Tango, but you aren't bullying…
You have resorted to slinging insults at people rather than engaging with them all because their opinions do not coincide with yours.

Instead of attempting to justify this behavior try taking a breather and come back, because, as you put it, "for all the good it will do" which is none, I am not suddenly going to feel compelled to be won over to a point of view by being insulted by its advocates.

Nor will I join the crowd to attack another member who has done no harm to any person here.

It doesn't surprise me that my stifle count has gone up, a mob doesn't like to be opposed.

A mob? Spare me, please. This is a minor dispute on the internet. Get some perspective.

Perhaps if you don't want to see what he posted, then don't open the thread. I find that a pretty simple solution.

I don't care if he posts a hundred posts a day.

No-one as actually attacking anyone.

All we are asking is for is a member to show a little self restraint to stop causing the discord we are seeing.

No more no less.

It's a perfectly reasonable request.

Anything else, no matter if it be wargames related or not be considered "current affairs" and be discussed only in the Blue Fez.

The "fig leaf" of "What rules should I use, and who makes them in 1:300 scale…" is a well established practice.

It is "politics" ONLY if you say that "The Romney administration is really dropping the ball on this one" or "It's a good thing the Romney Administration has appointed Peyton Manning to deal with it."

This shrinking in horror from "politics" or "current affairs" gets tiresome. It's just a convenient tool to bash those we do not like.
If we can game it, we can talk about it.
Dear Editor monitors such discussions well, although I do wish he would nuke this thread to admonish the nasty people whho attack our dear Tango01. Shame on them.

All we are asking is for is a little self restraint on behalf of a member to stop causing the discord we are seeing.

The only 'discord' I'm seeing is coming from folks who want to single out someone for 'annoying' them.
Coming up with all sorts of melodramatic hoopla and vague tales of how 'Tango drove my mother's aunt's sister to post on LAF!!!' and whatnot.

A couple of dozen members ganging up on one poster is not a mob?
Would you prefer witch hunt, then?

Well if we game it we can talk about it is fine so..

Can we discuss religion then if we game the holy wars ?
It's pertinent to the topic isn't it ?
I'm sure that would get ugly real quick.

What was it they use to say? Never discuss politics or religion. Something like that..

Ceasar I would agree that it would be a mob picking on an individual IF he was actually taking part in this discussion.

However it's actually a couple of dozen from one 'mob' arguing against a couple of dozen from another 'mob'

To repeat: has anyone actually asked him?

Respectfully,

J. P. Kelly

Caesar: Good Lord man, I've laid out all of my arguments in bold, clear words.

You have resorted to slinging insults at people rather than engaging with them all because their opinions do not coincide with yours.

I'll admit I've posted on here in some anger and frustration. I've even been insulting to the way some here defend Tango. Pretty tame stuff by internet standards, or even civil standards. Plus, through it all, I have repeatedly stated my case and my reasons, none of which you have addressed or engaged, as you say. I realize my opinions don't coincide with others. That's why we are here. It's you who at this point seems incapable of engagement. Do you HAVE an opinion on this besides that you think I'm insulting? I listed a bunch of reasons above. Care to comment on those?

For someone who is concerned with communication, you seem to be doing very little of it.

Everyone's stifle count has gone up. This is TMP. It's what people seem to do here. I don't stifle. Never have, never will.

We've asked him in the past on here MR Kelly, so-Yes.

True, mine went up 2.

Tin Hat: understood, I was not aware of that.

I still don't get the fuss, if you don't like it don't read it, to paraphrase a uk advert, "simples".
Or perhaps am I missing something here, if it's a left or right wing slant to his posts, I ain't seen and if so don't read it. His posts have directed me to pages I would never have had the time to search for. Let's get on with wargaming, if it is politics, then the hobby will splinter.

Whoa my stifle count has doubled!

Rated.

I think this thread need to me sorted by the editors -and god knows there's enough of them now: otherwise we're all going to end up waiting for each other in dark alleys.

Ah, make that 4 now. Interesting how some people would rather stifle than engage on a forum based on engagement.

Tin Hat: it would be crowded in there! But, seriously, it's obvious you and I don't agree on this topic but we are not in a knife fight here-I respect your opinion.

Keith: My opinion was expressed on the first page of this topic. You may have noticed it if you weren't so concerned with name-calling.

I simply don't like seeing others bullied.
If you don't like Tango's posts then ignore them or stifle him. If you don't like topics on Modern warfare then turn off the Modern boards. It's not Tango's fault there is a place for people interested in Modern warfare to put posts. It is your fault for leaving the boards on in your profile and for reading topics that you know will upset you.

It's not acceptable to gang up on someone because you are annoyed by him, he posts a lot, he utilizes funtionality of this site that you don't like or he doesn't want to talk to you.

Ho ho,
I see my stifle count has now tripled! At least this thread has generated some actual discussion and passion, which is more than most of Tango's direct posts ever do!
I am aware of the 10 year rule about politics. However, Tango's original posts, which started this thread seem to have evaded the rule or aren't covered by it. I advocated a 10 year rule on all modern discussion to prevent any chance of evasion by anyone and keep things simpler and more consistent.
As for having the thread nuked, I hope that doesn't happen. The discussion has been mostly reasonable and always interesting and has generated 132 posts so far.
I' m sure we can stay passionate but avoid being nasty to each other.
All the best,
George.

As for having the thread nuked, I hope that doesn't happen. The discussion has been mostly reasonable…

Except for the minor things like personal attacks on Tango01. Nothing to get excited about.

The reason I dropped off was because I'm in Australia, and I was either sleeping or getting my two kids ready for day care.

This is like someone moves into your apartment complex and starts playing heavy metal all day and night at volume. You hear all the noise, and occasionally a song comes on that you don't mind (hey, now he's playing Metallica, nice!). Now you can call the police, or you can knock on your neighbors door and ask them to turn it down. I prefer knocking on the door than calling in the authorities. This is why I didn't take this to Bill, and this is why the topic subject is a direct appeal to Tango.

So please chaps, this is a neighborhood dispute and not an issue of "free speech", or a lynch mob, or personal attacks to die in a ditch over, or start yelling at each other over.

and should be deactivated, i.e., TMP needs a better spam filter.

Assuming Tango is human, he's a net-hunter, paid to drive traffic to various web-sites. If you disagree, answer me this:

Has Tango ever started a topic that wasn't a cut and paste?
And I mean ever; I've not exhausted his posts, but I've seen more than I care to, and I've not seen anything but cut and paste jobs.

Whatever Tango is, he's not a wargamer. If you disagree, answer me this:
1. What period(s) does he game?
2. What scale(s) does he use?
3. Which ruleset(s) does he favor?
Show me one post talking about the game he just played, or how the activation system of 'x' set of rules really suits his playing style, or how 'y' set of rules combat resolution sucks.

For you that insist people don't like Tango because of how many posts he submits (we hate him for his freedom?), I'd submit we, or at least I, don't like him because he's not a wargamer and spams up one of the few wargaming sites with non-wargaming stuff.

There have been some incredibly obtuse posts here, though I suspect Tango's S-Y-C-O-P-H-A-N-T-S will view mine in that manner as well. There really is no winning this fight, and TMP is suffering for it…

Personally, I'm aggravated with posting a question or a batrep at 2200, then returning at 0700 to find 50 Tango posts in a row, and no one even sees my post, which is no longer on the front page.

Caesar, you need to get off the internet and talk to some actual humans, face to face. There can be no mobs or witch-hunts on the internet. Sticks and stones and all…

"…yes TMP has changed/ evolved would we rather it did not?"
Yes, I would rather it not change/evolve, if that means it becomes a political discussion forum. There are far more of those on the internet than wargaming sites, I really, really need this one to be a wargaming site.

At best, stretching as far as possible, Tango's posts are not wargaming posts, they are modelling posts, or advertisements for various figure makers. I'm subtracting the 'boobies posts,' which are nothing but manufacturer advertisements, and the current events posts.

If you're interested in current events, I have an idea for you: watch/read the news. This is a wargaming forum. There are plenty of places to discuss current events.

Space Monkey and OFM, you guys are quite the selfless heroes on the internet today, very valiant and noble when there's nothing on the line. This is just the internet, no one has actually been harmed, but thanks for doing so much to change the tone of this thread because you didn't like the topic.

Good thing you grizzled old Internet Warriors/TMP Veterans have been around and seen all this before. Yeah, this is just like Ia Drang back in '65, I seen it before man, these bastards are just looking to string old Tango up, I seen it! They're gonna string Tango up I tell ya, and we just better do something about it."

Regarding your comments about playing the politics, I'd love to see you game the the maintenance life-cycle of the A-10, or the F-22 having oxygen problems, etc… I put "etc…," but there are more, I'm just to lazy to go back through them.

At first I didn't mind, then I started realizing nothing wargaming related ever came out of them, only "the F-35/China/Israel sucks!" vs. "the F-35/China/Israel is great!" If this is what you are looking for, there are plenty of Defense Industry/ Defense Analyst places to go, but this is one of the very few wargaming sites on the web, and I really, really need it to be a wargaming site.

I would beg you to just once, just one damned time, shut up and let Tango come to his own defense. If he's not just a spambot.

Jack

McWong73 and Bong67,

Respectfully, Tango1 posts items about current military developments and operations that have an impact on those of use interested in modern wargaming. I really don't think he intends them as "political commentary". I think you are reading to much into the posts.

Keith,
You do make a very good point regarding Tango's lack of participation. Given the level of vitriol his posts seem to create, you would think he'd post something in response. I made the mistake a couple years ago defending a manufacturer who was being lambasted. I was pilloried, and the manufacturer never bothered defending himself.

@JustJack,
Tango plays 25mm Napoleonics. He plays solo and uses rules of his own devising. Now, maybe you think this is not wargaming. But I'd like to know how it could be so.
By the way. I am no one's sycophant. I am Tango's friend. I will stand up for him. Would any of you not do so for a friend of yours? If not, then I feel sorry for your friends.

nnascati, I'm a moderns gamer and I'm saying enough is enough. Show me a topic started by Tango in the moderns sections made in the past week (can't be bothered trawling the moderns board for more) that is still about moderns gaming, if it ever was to start with?

As I said at the start of all this, my problem isn't the topics, it's that he just posts a link and then bolts while the rest of us end up making some really ugly statements and generally make fools of ourselves.

If I remember correctly,:

Napoleonics

1/72 (thousands of figures)

Don't remember him stating a specific rule set but hey, evidently I'm an imbecile…with 3 more stifles.

Rrobbyrobot, if you are his friend can you let him know about these issues a lot of us are having with his behaviour?

Surely friends also do that?

McWong73, okay, fair enough then.
I think that Keith has made the best point, that Tango, I think his real name is Raoul, simply posts links without participating in any followup discussion. Has anyone noticed by the way, that Tango hasn't posted anything at all today.

As has been reinforced by others, I could care less about the NUMBER of posts Tango starts. It's the absolute lack of any original content, reposts from news already on the front page, political nonsense and rehashes of already running threads. His participation in any thread not started by himself is so rare as to be non-existent.

If his posts were of minis he painted, AARs, a ruleset he reviewed or even talk of his locally gaming scene, I would fully applaud him. His posts are scattergun spam.

I was going to say something about that nnascati ;)

I'm also surprised that those who don't have an issue with Tango's posting haven't addressed this point I raised:

I just looked, and yesterday Tango started 21 new topics in 97 minutes, or one every 4.6 minutes. Earlier the same day he made a post just over every five minutes, I think 13 in 67 minutes.

Surely even his friends can see this is over the top?

RR,

I listed all my issues by name, so a little surprised to see your response, but okay.

I've got no problems with sticking up for a friend; that doesn't change the fact your friend is spamming a wargame forum with modern events and politics.

You say he's a wargamer, I believe you. But none of his posts reflect this. If he submitted the same number of posts but these were actually engaging the wargaming public here at TMP about wargaming topics, I'd be in heaven. But he's not; he's going to news outlets and posting current events/politics, and he's going to manufacturer's sites and posting advertisements for their ranges.

Let's talk about wargaming.

EDIT: Joe's Shop – Like I said to RR, I named the individuals I was interested in addressing. You can hop in if you like, but I didn't have a problem with anything you said. Like RR, you seem to know what Tango games (1/72 or 25mm Napoleonics); fantastic! Surely you know that from some personal interaction, because you can't see it in his posts. Let's have Tango come on and discuss 25mm Napoleonics, and solo gaming (I'm a solo gamer too).

V/R,
Jack

For what it's worth, I just PM'd him and strongly suggested that he involve himself in this discussion. Lets see what happens.

To just say "ignore Tango's posts/Stifle Tango" is akin to going to a party, falling asleep, being teabagged by your drunk friend and then being told "it doesn't matter, you were asleep".

OK, the above isn't serious at all. Just wanted to lighten the mood here a bit.