"What constitutes a bad Kickstarter to you?" Topic

Hi all,

There's been a few topics created asking about whether kickstarters ever result in a positive outcome, and then people respond with their own experiences. It does seem however that similar results are met with different attitudes, so it would be interesting to hear what you would constitute as a "good" kickstarter experience and what would be a "bad" one.

The way I see it, if a kickstarter fails to reach it's funding level, that is not bad because if I have pledged then I lose nothing, and the creators can go back to the drawing board without having gone further down the line to reach that conclusion.

I think the situation which gathers the most diverse reactions, and is the most common outcome in my experience, is that the project funds then overruns its fulfilment date. I personally would only see this as a negative if the creators were deficient in communication in some manner, such as evading important questions or even 'going dark'. I'm in several KS where the project is delayed, but I'm fine as long as I'm informed and the delay is justifiable.

What do you guys think? Is it the case that any delay is unjustifiable? Does your opinion change depending on the track record/size of the creator?

Leigh

To me, it's one that wasn't well planned.

During the campaign there will be a loud chorus of "more stretch goals" and "another goal smashed, what's next ?" and the owner is too willing to oblige.

Then, a while after closing, just when you think it will be shipping in a month or two you get an update "awww, this is hard, who knew producing poseable 15mm figures would be so hard, this is going to be late"

I hate it when the rewards and what you are paying don't align. For example, the AvP kickstarter.

I have only bean involved in 3 kick starts to date one has delivered ahead of time the other two are progressing as the posters predicted and look good. I do not know what a bad one looks like so will watch this for warnings.

x42

The best kickstarters I've backed are those without any stretch goals. These were usually projects that already were in an advanced stage of development, but really needed some extra cash to bring them to market. Usually, these kickstarters also had a fairly modest reward scheme. In other words, a pure and simple investment scheme without too many frills attached. I do not think it's a coincidence these were usually also small-scale companies, that really appreciated your support.

It seems that KS does not do much for the consumer and everything for the owner. You do get stretch goals which often come at a price. The prices seem to be retail for what you pay. So for the consumer, you sometimes get the odd bit that is exclusive to the campaign supporter. For the owner it is a great situation because you can gauge the popularity of your product. Similar to the P-500 clubs that Eureka does except you get guaranteed funding.

Here is what I mean. There is a 15mm KS campaign (Westwind?) with a bunch of stuff and very nice looking miniatures. I have armies for everything they are offering. I would be interested in the Greeks. Those are only unlocked with much funding. Then you have to buy in larger denominations. At this point, I'd just assume buy what I want after they go to production. This can usually apply to any KS campaign.

For me? I am willing to wait. Not really digging the KS.

John

I've participated in two, one large and one modest. The large kickstarter was Zombicide 2, I got the stuff and it is great….yet. I now have a swath of stuff that'll keep me busy for well into next year. Although some may/will decry C'mon and GG, there were a lot of vocal participants that could not be bothered to read all the updates, thought shipment in Sept meant package at house by the 1st, or spread rumors of exclusive season 1 items at conventions. A friend went to Gencon and bought the motherlode which included the not- Bruce Willis, not- Machete, and the popular Dave the Geek. No other exclusives were available.
The huge outcry, entitlement issues, constant where is my stuff from shipping day one backlogged the Cmon email and later on buried legimate complaints from people missing items from initial shipments.
some folks didn't even confirm their orders and still whinned about lack of service with others still wondering where the stuff previously listed as shipment 2 is/was/ wwwaaaahhh wherez my stuffz?????
By comparison Crossover minis did not get the volume of backers, the funding, nor tons of extras, but it was the better experience. It started after Z2 and all my stuff arrived before Z2. It is also readily available now by Crossover minis at a holiday discount. The backers were way more pleasant on the comments too.
Zombicide sucked up most of my gaming budget. Although I like it well enough, I wonder if Blackwater Gulch, EoTD, Sails of Glory, or the wild west exodus- whatever that spiffy steampunk western game was- would/were better experiences.
I'll probably not go with a Zombicide 3 because of the backers not the game. Crossover may do another modest kickstarter and if they do, I'll be there for that one.
Kickstarter is rather unique, I may find another one similar to the aforementioned ones I missed. At this point, I'd much rather back the smaller indies like Crossover.

I can't say that I've been in really 'bad' one, since I tend to already take all of the delivery dates with a major grain of salt. I've had two come in really late, but again I don't think they could have NOT been late given how much extra stuff they promised to produce. A couple of warning signs I'm keeping in mind for the future:

1. Too much funding/too many stretch goals – both of the really late projects were in what I like to call 'catastrophic success' mode after the funding ended. The projects massively overfunded and as a result the backers ended up with a bunch of free stuff/cheap add-ons due to stretch goals. Which was great, except now the company had to produce something like 100 times what it was originally planning to manufacture. The Relic Knights KS supposedly resulted in 500,000(!!) minis being manufactured, as an example. No way you're going to get that done on your original schedule. So I agree with OP on that one; it's a justifiable delay. Some companies have already learned from this, like Reaper which created a staggered release schedule with Bones II.
2. Bad planning/unclear pledge levels. I've been in a few where the pledge levels were not definitely not well explained and unlocked stretch goals only increased the confusion, resulting in people dropping out, constantly asking questions and generally bogging down the Kickstarter.
3. Not been in one of these myself, but I've heard tales of KS projects that were sent to retail before the backers got their stuff. This would be a big red flag to me against backing another project from a company; if I'm putting my money on the line with you at the very least I expect to have the game or models before someone can wander in their FLGS and buy it

-Will

It's bad if it doesn't ever deliver or if it delivers substandard products.

I would think that lying about your current management structure to con people into your kickstarter would constitute a bad one.

Seems to depend on the market. KS has been fantastic for RPGs, but then the end product is easily deliverable and doesn't involve massive production costs. Given that, I'm surprised that a whole bunch of wargames rules haven't been produced that way. But I can see that ranges of figures might cause problems.

When I evaluate a kickstarter I look as several things…

Idea:
-Is it well thought out, well fleshed out, and cohesive?
-Well thought out: does the concept make sense? (this is an example of something that DOES NOT make sense YouTube link )
-Well fleshed out: If I'm going to back something I want to know what it is. If the author of the kickstarter doesn't even seem to know what it is that they're offering, I'm gonna walk right on by.
-Cohesive: Stick to the concept. If it's a miniatures line, do all offerings make SENSE? For example a WWII themed kickstarter that starts talking about Crimean War themed expansions will get some dubious glances from me. A scifi based kickstarter that starts offering a bunch of romance novels as add-ons is likewise going to get me to think twice.
-all of the above show a lack of focus and forethought. which is one of the biggest causes of ANY project from failing.

Value:
-I expect the kickstarter to offer a tangible reward for my "seed money". Kickstarter isn't a glorified pre-order system, it's venture-capitalism on a micro-scale. I, like any other venture capitalist expect a good "Return On Investment" (ROI).
-Exclusives: These are one thing that I have mixed feelings on when it comes to kickstarter. In the Videogame arena I tend to hate "pay-to-win" in games and kickstarter exclusives can sometimes be the same thing in a gaming kickstarter. Done Properly (here's an alternative pose of the same "dude" that will be in the retail copy, kickstarter limited!) I'm cool with it. Don't do too many though or the game will build resentment because it will create a mentality of "second class" players that didn't kickstart it.
-Extra "whatzits": I am a collector of THINGS, If the THING I an getting from backing you is functionally the same exact thing that hits retail, (which it SHOULD be) then I expect a bit more of those things. Throw in expansions for free that end-users might have to pay extra for. Throw a signature on some of the things, pop some concept art or lithographs in there. "swag" is a term I used to use when vendors would give me "branded" items (like a Hewlett Packard hat, or a Compaq frizbee). They need not be exclusive, but i need to feel a reason to get the project made and a genuine feeling that I'm more than just a pre-order.
-Last but not least is QUALITY. DO the materials make sense if it's a physical product. Does the delivery vector make sense if it's digital. How does the concept art look, is it something that looks like it will be feasibly produced to the level of expectations that I have?

Trust:
-I want updates and communication. If during the kickstarter the updates and communications are sparse, or conflicting, how can I expect anything less from the project AFTER they have my money? I have backed out of SEVERAL kickstarters for this.
-Do the people behind it have a good reputation? I passed on the Defiance kickstarter despite REALLY wanting some of those suits. I did this because of past bad word of mouth on the company, and the things I have heard since have done nothing to convince me it was a bad choice to have made.
-Lastly, does the project look like it has the staying power I expect? Something like Ogre has enormous and obvious staying power. it's a staple of gaming. some projects I only want for the components, to cannibalize for other ideas of my own, and don't care if the actual project succeeds. But other projects are fully fleshed out and I want them to succeed because I expect longevity. If I don't get that vibe I will walk.

Post-kickstarter, on delivery, I re-evaluate the experience, with an eyebto my expectations and how they've been met. (in regards to the above youtube link, here's what was "delivered" in THAT mess: YouTube link )

A Great kickstarter satisfies all (or most) of the above criteria to an excess. Reaper Bones, Ogre, Little Urban Acheivers, Zombicide Season 1, and the just completed (but not fulfilled) Princess Bride Card Deck kickstarters all fall into this category. "Great kickstarters pretty much

A Good kickstarter satisfies all the above criteria in a medium-to-lackluster fashion, or MOST of the above criteria very well but with one or two glaring flaws that I feel can be overlooked. Post fulfillment, perhaps delivery was a little later than I liked. Maybe the communications were few and far between. Aftermath Modules modular warehouse fell here for me simply because of some QC and fulfillment issues, that they ABSOLUTELY made good on, but that kept them out of the realm of a "GREAT" kickstarter. Empress Miniatures is here right now strictly on the basis of communications, and if the final product is good enough it might rocket back to "great" status. Zombicide season 2 ishere right now for several reasons. "Good" kickstarters get my thumbs up, and would likely be backed again.

An OK kickstarter is where problems start to crop up. pre-delivery it may seem unfocused, or have a less than ideal ROI. Post fulfillment maybe communications were poor, expectations not met, or in some other way something just was "off", but in the end I feel that I got a fair value for my money. At this point I'd think twice giving it a pass, or post fulfillment, before backing another project by this company, but I wouldn't consider myself "ripped off". Sedition Wars was here until wave 2 hit.

A Disappointing kickstarter has made some serious mistakes. Maybe the company has a bad history of communications, or is habitually late. Maybe the ROI is lower than I'd like to see. The AvP kickstarter is here for that reason. Quite simply for the money they were asking I wanted more "Stuff", not a hand full of miniatures on 3 square feet of cardboard. I'll pick it up at a discounted retail because it DOES look like a nice game, and is ABSOLUTELY a retail product I'd like to see. Sedition Wars ended up here for the opposite reason. It was FANTASTIC on paper, great concept, awesome miniatures, and a FANTASTIC ROI. But because of abysmal quality control, issues with maintaining a consistent scale, long stretches of no communications, running late on every milepost, and the actions of CMON seeming to write it off as a total loss to focus on season 2 of ZOMBICIDE… Plus it is unlikely to maintain a following after this, meaning the fact that the components are disapointing means that having to resort to canibalization of them for other tasks is a double punch in the gut. It became the biggest disappointment I've had with kickstarter yet. Disappointing kickstarters get passed on, but I keep my eye on them to see if they make it to retail and get reevaluated at that point. Kickstarters that disappoint me don't automatically blackball a company to me, but they leave a bad taste in my mouth, and make me think twice about going at them for a second try.

A BAD kickstarter is a total loss. It is a shoddy mess full of holes, a completely unfocused project, a project destined to fail, an obvious scam, has an abysmal ROI versus waiting to see it at retail or something that has little chance of delivering what I want. I passed on the Defiance kickstarter for several of the above reasons. I passed on "Beyond the Gates of Antares" because it was unfocused to the extreme. Halfway into the kickstarter (before they canceled it) I wasn't even sure what I'd be getting, what the game WAS, or where it was going.

The final category of kickstarter is ""Meh.. Pass…"
There isn't anything "wrong" with the kickstarter, but it for some reason doesn't fill a need I have. Maybe it's a genre I don't like, maybe I just don't like the art/style, maybe it's something I have too many of. Maybe it's something that's been done to death.

I passed up CoreSec's kickstarter because the products being offered weren't anything I could make use of on my table. The "line-o-walls" has been done by other makers in a more appealing (to me) style, and the "pulp-future art deco" style of the buildings wasn't my cup of tea. I prefer brutalist buildings, and industrial walkways and gantries on my terrain, or the opposite direction, something model-railroad level precise. It was a great value, would otherwise have been a "great" kickstarter… but the offerings were nothing I wanted.

I hope this came across as something more than an unfocused mess.

Seems to depend on the market. KS has been fantastic for RPGs, but then the end product is easily deliverable and doesn't involve massive production costs

I dunno about that, there seem to be (from a highly unscientific assessment) just as many or more RPG kickstarters that have gone 'bust' with really late or non-existent deliveries.

-Will

Well….I would have to say that in total terms something like the link below would be near the top of the list.

Have a look: link

GBS
theionage.com

I'm with Caesar's definition.
One that doesn't deliver or delivers goods that are sub-par in quality or differing significantly from what was promised.

It's a different way of looking at things, but , I actually think of a KS that doesn't fund as a success because it demonstrates that either there wasn't a demand, or the people running the KS aren't up to the task of promoting the product.

Gavin Symes GBS- but even that one hasn't cost the public any money, has it? With other investment platforms, investors may already have parted with cash and then found it to have been taken up with legal costs.

It does seem that most people are accepting of a time schedule slip, as long as they are satisfied that the end product will be worthwhile, whether that be their perception of quality/ quantity/ etc… That's why communication from the creators is really important.

Aside from the creators, I also find that the demeanour of other backers can be an influence on the experience. Cadian 7th touches on this, and I've noticed some really detestable behaviour on other projects. Funnily enough, the worst does always seem to be board games in my experience!

Leigh

@Badgers, to follow up on wminsing's comments, I'm not so sure either that KS has been "great" for RPGs.

There was a thread linked here a while ago that highlighted many failures in the market.

It seems the biggest problem may be that people think RPGs are easy – put up an idea, collect your money and then work out the details – well…writing takes time (and talent), hardcover books as stretch goals cost lots of money, more scenarios / adventures – more time…

From what I was reading, it seems that the RPG KS-market is a very risky one.

Ones that don't deliver on promises, or deliver sub-par products.

Others, with endless "stretch goals", which really don't seem much like goals to me, when they are of dubious quality/utility, or come at too high a threshhold level, and/or price. Say for example, cardboard status counters for a miniatures game; scenic bases; etc.

I look at postage costs. Free is what I want to see.

Well, BigNickR pretty much covered the territory I was going to cover – focus for me is on the "goodness" of the concept, the value provided, and whether I trust the vendor. This last point may seem counter-intuitive to some given the "micro funding" concept behind Kickstarter. For me I am interested in both getting a product at a good price but also supporting people in the hobby. Many of the Kickstarters I have supported were often based on the need to get funding to get over the hump, usually in terms of a production methods or a new product line. In any case, a "success" for me is that I get a quality product at a reasonable price in a reasonable time. For me the Dwarven Forge Kickstarter met these goals. Like BigNickR I start to move from "excellent" to "good" as schedule goes out of whack – this has certainly been true of the East Asian Village and By Fire and Sword. In both cases the providers have given constant updates, and the explanations given were reasonable – whether due to production issues (East Asian Village) or to being victims of their own success (BFAS). The BFAS miniatures were nice, and I really enjoyed getting a full set of troops for Polish, Russian, and Ottoman armies. So, I liked the product, the concept met my needs (full up armies for Eastern Renaissance), the price was good [shipping reasonable from Europe], and the timeline was OK. I have yet to be disappointed given these guidelines.

Hello Leigh,

Thanks for picking up on my comment. It is really just the breathtaking dishonesty of that link that got to me. If it had made it to fulfilled then I have no doubt all the investors would have lost their money. I looked into it further and Ebay too and there seems to be a lot of this about.

This is an excellent thread too, lots of informed and interesting opinions on Kickstarter.

GBS
theionage.com

1. massively delayed delivery. I have one that is 9 months late already.

2. Retail prices – if I am going to back a kickstarter, I expect to have a pretty good discount. If you want $4 USD per figure for "troops" or plastic minis, I will take my business elsewhere

3. Strange combinations of rewards that mean it is hard to find what I want.

A good kickstart project is that that is well planned. A bad one is one with good intentions. Further, I do not participate when the project is nothing more than pre-ordering. I want to help a person or a team that has little to no access to angel money elsewhere. (If you have access to venture money then it is unethical to use Kickstarter.) I am comfortable giving $25 USD to help another reach outside of his or her normal lives. I don't expect anything in return.

I haven't been involved with many 3 to date. I received two and am awaiting the third. Of the two I have received they are both good buys. The one that impressed me the most was the Warehouse Project from Aftermath Mods. It was not only on time it was a great deal for the money. But the thing I was most impressed with was their attention to customer service. They had several updates so I always knew where my capital was going. They were also "Johnny on the spot" with answering questions and their attitude about suggestions. If every KS went as well as this I would easily go in for many more KS Campaigns…

I don't mind delays. Good communication is nice, but as long as I get stuff in the end, that's fine.

Relic Knights is still running late well over a year later, and with very sporadic communications — but still the last communiqué was that they were holding back to improve some stuff that wasn't quite up to snuff. I'm good with that.

The bad for me is when stretch goals veer off into unwanted swag: t-shirts & posters. Nooooooo.

Anything from Cool Mini, they lie, produce crap, then run and hide.

The FUBAR that was Heroquest 25

The overpriced tat that was AvP

Escessive stretch goals

Anything involving Defiance

Looooooooooooooooong overdue timelines (a couple of months is fine, the worst I've had so far was a solid YEAR for a very simple boardgame)