"GW's Lord of the Rings/Hobbit game dead?" Topic

Through their pricing policies and cutting back on so many models, books, and supporting material, has Games Workshop essentially given up on their Lord or the Rings/Hobbit game? I'm aware that sales weren't great (particularly in the U.S.) but was increasing prices as they have just a big FU to gamers, with the understanding that there are still a lot of LOTR collectors who will pay the big bucks for a few kits, but who won't be building armies. Thoughts?

Hmmmm, won't we know for sure in a few weeks when Hobbit II opens ? I don't recall from last year how close to the movie release was their release but one would think it would be close.

Though a fan of the game system and the LotR figures, the Hobbit figures are just too costly for me. I have more than enough of the LotR:SBG figures for a lifetime of painting so I just don't feel compelled to buy anything new at the remarkably high prices today.

The rumored goal of GW getting the license was to keep another company from acquiring it I guess it makes sense they'd do the least amount possible per the contract.

The last thing GW wants to make money like they did with the Lord of the Rings go around it seems.

I'm a LotR collector or was really and I would be for the Hobbit too but GW made sure I wouldn't be. I will not buy Finecast models. Doubling the price on the plastics didn't help either.

My bet is they'll release a few models and a book in December. I do know my FLGS owner asked them what's on the cover of White Dwarf coming out this week and he was told "40k." So I don't think a big Hobbit release is forthcoming in December.

new WD is out this weekend in the UK so we shall see what they have

I think they cant announce any releases before hand due to restrictions on there license, the film is out in just over 2 weeks here, so if normal models and new book will be released about a week before the film

LOTR still plays big at our club with about 15 people activly playing it there

Al

I'm already a cheap bastard. Given the cost of fine cast and plastic at GW, I don't even give them a sideways glance anymore. Probably not dead. As pointed out above, they probably can't release merchandise before the movie premiers.

In my opinion LOTR/Hobbit is the best system that GW currently have still in production. It's clear, quick, flexible and didn't suffer from whole factions being rendered useless with every update.

Sadly GW have done themselves no favors by making the game very expensive and failing to push it. Especially as LOTR originally was extremely cheap to play. 24 figures used to cost £12.00 GBP and a command pack was about £6.00 GBP/7.

Sadly I've not been able to find an opponent in ages, but I really do love the game. It would be a real shame to see it die.

There is still a lot of SBG being played locally, but product sales seem very anemic. Many of those I game with don't collect Finecast. The local games seem to feature more LOTR scenarios than from the first Hobbit movie, although I played a fun 'Escape from Goblin Town' one last week. Games are being played with figures that have been owned for a long time or with figures that are not made by GW.

I think the Hobbit game box had very little play in it and the goblins were awful. Until the Battle of Five Armies is put in minis I don't see the Hobbit game having wide interest.

Funny you mention that…
I can see how it may be dead as I saw a box of GW LotR that went for $75 USD for three (maybe four) figs.

YIKES!

Is there really any more to it than that you have GW's very high prices coupled with license fees driving those prices even higher?

Then first Hobbit film didn't really fire me up to the point that I wanted any figures. From my point of view then the price was not a turn off as the product held no interest for me…which may be a failure of the film rather than of the game company.

Here in Raleigh/Durham there is a fair following of the miniatures at least. The trend is to use the minis with other rule sets. I saw some Iron Dwarves a year or so ago when I went into a GW store in my Parents home town while I was on a visit. The figures looked sweet and I thought of painting some up as a gift for a friend. Unfortunately, all of the packs in the store were miscasts with gaping holes in their chests. I pointed this out to the GW drone on duty hoping there were more figures in the back. His reaction was to deny the holes.

Part of the problem is that GW had relatively little to mine from the first movie, and blitzed most that out the door by February. They also embarked on a much more aggressive update schedule for the two Warhammers in 2013, leaving little room for anything else.

The stealthiness might be due to the license, or it might just be GW's current marketing mode of sharing as little as possible before release.

This is exactly why I've switched to 15mm.

There is a commonly-held misconception that the LOTR-based figures did not make money. Numerous people over on various GW-specific boards have both parsed the annual reports (keep in mind GW is a publicly-traded company) and spoken to "people in the know on the inside" and both sources of information seem to show that GW made a TON of money off of LOTR. However, two apparent issues cropped up--(1) GW evidently believes they left money on the table, and (2) some of the pricing schemes (starter boxes versus sets versus other packaging options) generated demonstrably more profit than others.

As a result, we have what almost everyone views as drastically overpriced miniatures and odd choices for packaging. I have seen almost no one, on any of dozens of webboards, say anything other than that the Hobbit releases are doing poorly in their neck of the woods (based on local gaming interest as well as what is moving off the shelves of the local GW store or FLGS). I myself have talked to numerous locals and agree with this conclusion. Most observe, however, that GW might also be hampered by (1) overall buyers' fatigue and less interest in The Hobbit relative to the pent-up demand for the LOTR movies and figures, and (2) the lack of as much inspiration in the first Hobbit installment for miniature releases. The second problem may be alleviated by the new movie--we will get Smaug, Beornings, the wood elves, and likely a conflict involving Dol Guldur: all good fodder for gaming. We will also have a third installment 13 months from now that will feature the Battle of Five Armies.

GW will likely see this to the end, though we MIGHT see slightly more favorable pricing structures in the future, but what will probably happen is that GW will simply run the line out to the end of their contract and then let the license go. GW is all about maximizing profit (shudder) so as long as they make this stuff you have to assume they are in the black. What is interesting about GW is how they also analyze the MARGINS of profitability and ruthlessly slash products less profitable even if popular enough to stay in the black.

I agree with GypsyComet. The first movie really wasn't that good as far as game fodder goes. You had a not really gameable chase, a running fight that was like a roller coaster ride, a comic wrestling match ending in a deus ex machina sunrise and then a flash back fight that would have been cool.

It isn't really a very good book. It is a kid's book, they are making due with what they have I guess.

Some of the stuff had a pretty high price on it but the original boxed set was a very good deal for the amount of stuff contained in it. I wonder if the price point compared to the price point for the previous boxed sets was too high. If you have a kid that wants to play LotR they had to lay out about $50 USD if I remember correctly, now it is double that.

While the value for money remained fairly consistent it seems that the price point might be too high itself.

Perhaps if they had not included the scenery and had cut the price in half it would have done better.

But again, the thing it depicted is going to be a little difficult to game unless you are a master terrain modeller.

I think they should just have made 10mm scale minis of the mountain giants and done a rock 'em, sock 'em robots type game and left it at that for the first movie.

Everyone I know is sick to death of the movies. Maybe LOTR/Hobbit is just old hat now and people have moved on.

Really? Most of the patrons at my FLGS are excited to see the new movie, not least because, well, SMAUG! The first movie was pure scene setting with very little gameable content, this one may be better but I think the game will get new life when we reach the Battle of Five Armies.

I am usually the last one to winge about pricing… but the Starter Set priced at $135 USD USD is a bit too much for my tastes…
Last time around they were $60. USD
And an $85 USD rulebook…???

I collected EVERYTHING LOTR the first time.
Now I can't reconcile these prices in my head as being worthwhile…

This set contains 56 miniatures and the rulebook, plus a pretty decent piece of terrain. It is actually $125 USD USD, not $135. USD If you cost the book out at only $10 USD, which wouldn't be bad for a 48 page full color book and the terrain at another $15 USD, which would actually be dirt cheap, then you are looking at less than $2 USD a figure.

Unless you are complaining about the actual total amount of money it costs rather than the value.

I like their LOTR figures but am not going to buy Finecrap. I bought one and that was enough!

We still play on occasion. link But I only get figures on eBay these days. I'm too "frugal" to pay retail like that. Fortunately they can be had cheaply on the States.

I'm with Crusader1988. I try not to jump on the "GW is Overpriced" bandwagon, but have to say that when I saw the prices for the starter set & rulebook last year, my jaw hit the floor.

I was a big collector of the LOTR range and expected to be for The Hobbit again, but the prices completely scared me off. I also don't care for Finecast.

I think its interesting that for the last 8+ years my hobby budget has remained relatively constant, and as GW prices have increased I have found myself going elsewhere for better (in my own opinion) gaming value. Although I thought I would be picking up some of The Hobbit range, that didn't happen and I haven't purchased a GW product in over 2 years. Not due to any outright boycott, but simply because I have been priced out.

What is interesting about GW is how they also analyze the MARGINS of profitability and ruthlessly slash products less profitable even if popular enough to stay in the black.

My problems with them, in a nutshell. Aside from forays like Tolkien, GW has shown weirdly sporadic interest in expanding their (miniatures) IP outside their two flagship games.

Why buy more cows, when we can just milk the same ones twice as often?

So far I've been able to get all most all the LOTR stuff at blow out discount prices. I suspect the Hobbit stuff will also eventually meet this fate. GW still has enough "fans" that buy at bloated prices then sell at 10 cents on the dollar latter. I assume some day they will come to their senses, however, and the process will end but to my continual amazement, it keeps going.

I've been rebasing all my GW stuff for Hordes of the Things 3.0 as no one locally plays the GW game.

GW pricing policies should not drive any way into 15mm though, many companies make high quality plastic Dark Ages/Medieval figures that can be used in Middle Earth generally for half to a third the cost of GW (even though many are the same sculptors).

The market is distorted because people continue to purchase poor quality rules and OK figures from GW for above market prices while ignoring the same or better quality products from other companies. When this stops GW pricing will come back to reality.

TomT

If I want to play LOTR I will just get out my WFB armies.

Empire, High Elves, Orks & Goblins and Dwarves.

I have hundreds of models and don't have to buy anything else from GW.

"which would actually be dirt cheap, then you are looking at less than $2 USD USD a figure."

Maybe with they were 28mm but they are 20mm so not worth nearly $2.00 USD per figure.

As people have said – they won't be allowed to put out spoilers for the movie, so will be waiting for the cinema release.

As am I – can't wait for the next epsiode of the Hobbit – it'll be awesome !

I don't know anyone who plays around me, except me. I love it. I do have to say, people are still collecting the older LOTR line off ebay as some of the prices for characters are starting to get ridiculous. So people are buying the old stuff, alot. Getting basic troops is cheap.

As for the Hobbit figs, I would be buying some, but I have a 10 year back log of LOTR figs to get through. I will buy some, but not for a bit.

Yes the prices suck, but it's my favorite setting, and the sculpts are great.

As for Finecrap, won't touch it. I will pay and have paided, double the retail cost to get an older metal model. That is worthless.

I think GW has shot themselves in the foot with Finecast. More than their pricing structure. I mean, it is alomost universally hated.

Xin

When Finecast first came out it was bad. That isn't the case anymore. The stuff is actually very good, is fairly robust and holds detail well. It is superior to metal. I haven't had any troubles with bubbles in the stuff I've bought recently and am glad they made the switch now. Especially for flying and top heavy models.

I have one Finecast WHFB figure. Something dropped on it, from about 6 inches, and the hand weapon snapped off. Plastic or Metal, nothing would have happened. Factor in, the smaller "heft" or thickness of the LOTR figs and you might as well drill out all the spears from day one.

Yes it has Superb details, but that's the only benefit. It's not stronger, or cheaper. Well I'm sure it's cheaper, for GW. Profit margins and all that.

The other benefit to GW is durabitlty, or lack of. I have 25 year old Termies that I toss around like rocks. If you sell crap that breaks, you cut down the amount of figures in the secondary market.

Give me plastic or metal. Resin is a crap for models you will PLAY with.

Xin

That sounds like problems I was having with them when they first came out. I don't know what they did but the resin is better now and for flying models, like the Dark Eldar Beastmasters, they don't fall down all the time. They never chip, which is a huge problem with metal models.

The only Finecrap figure I have bought was one of the Haradrim commanders. It has lots very strange "ribs" or "struts" all over the place on it. They resemble the buttresses on a medieval church. Not impressive. Not to mention if I ever do clean it up I expect it to be very fragile.

I stopped buying Black Scorpian's stuff after they switched to resin because I don't want figures that will break under normal game handling. Or even a little rough handling.

I bought and painted the Hobbit – Escape from Goblin Town set

and the Plastic Great Eagle Set

I was very happy with both. I would have bought more stuff but the big rulebook and the 3 Trolls were a silly price and like many others, I don't buy Finecast.

I'm also not a big fan of resin for gaming. Its just too brittle. I can't imagine LOTR resin models holding up very well especially considering how thin some of em are compared to Warhammer models.

I like most of the plastic models I've seen from GW; some are better than others, but most are at least "okay". The trouble with them is the insane pricing for most of them now. You used to be able to get a box of 24 LOTR models for $27.95 USD, then they raised that to $33.95 USD. Now, you get 12 LOTR models for $24.75 USD, or a 177% increase. The Hobbit GW plastics orcs were released at $35 USD for twelve models, or an increase from the original pricing of $1.16 USD to $2.92 USD per model, or a 251% increase!

I bought into GW's LoTR very heavily at the time buying all three game sets as they came out. Sure the range was pricey imo but, on the whole, it contains absolutely superb sculpts and I had a blast playing the games from skirmish scenario to full on big battles.

Because of this I was intending to buy into The Hobbit just as heavily but when the film came out I *really* hated the look of the characters and monsters. Ok, that's not GW's fault but the prices GW are charging for the models literally had me laughing out loud when I saw them. If people are willing to pay that much then, hey, it's their money but I've ended up not buying anything from that range.

They never chip, which is a huge problem with metal models.

Huhhhhh…..whaaaaah? Seriously? Dude…look…I know you're a pro painter and you probably get a lot of business from GW gamers, but don't you EVER get tired of constantly being the GW "salesman" here on TMP?

We can count on Mithmee to constantly run down and trash anything GW. We get it, and there's something to be said for that getting old as well. But you're no different, just the reverse. Anything GW does is "a good value considering what you're getting". Which is crap, dude. Complete and total crap.

No, it's not. And whatever problems Finecast might have or not have (I have never bought a Finecast model), one thing is certain. I have thousands of metal miniatures. Not one of them is chipped.

Bent, maybe. Broken, possibly. Chipped? No.

I can say honestly that I like GW's games but hate their prices and business practices. Mithmee hates everything even remotely associated with GW. You seem to love them no matter what. That's your choice. But don't make things up to prop up your point.

I call BS on this.

I await the Dawghouse, if indeed it is my fate, as I know Pictors is an advertiser and I am not. But that doesn't change the fact that this claim is utter nonsense.

Ah.. I always wondered why Pictors was so in your face pro-GW!

It isn't really a very good book. It is a kid's book,

Slight divergence follows:
This has to be the most absurd and laughable statement I've read on the thread. It's also a statement that has very little understanding of literature, the nature of writing, and the differences between writing for children and writing for adults, and who Tolkien was and what he believed and understood about all four.

Yes, it is a story written for children, but that is not the same thing as "not being a good book," nor is it the same thing as being in any way less intelligently crafted nor less intellectually stimulating or culturally significant. If one thinks that "written for adults" is somehow an automatic statement of literary quality, I need only say "Fifty Shades of Gray." Frankly, it's easy to write for adults, especially if the crap currently hitting bestseller lists is any standard to go by. It is far more difficult to craft a well-written tale for children, to see the world again through a child's eyes, full of wonder and the readiness to accept the idea that around the corner lies magic. In my humble opinion, perhaps it is the adults who need to stop writing (and reading) their navel-gazing, depressing, unimaginative slop featuring the latest adulterous self-loathing (yet really self-adulating) "hero" and move back towards a healthy dose of imagination.

Back to the OP
But as for the gaming aspects of The Hobbit, the book is very gameable, from the running battle in the goblin tunnels to the fight with the spiders, to the battle of Laketown, to the Battle of the Five Armies— three solid scenarios in one novel, which is more than you can say for most. If anything, the situation might be hampered by the film's interpretation, with its over-the-top chase sequence— fun to watch, but hard to game. In any case, there's no question that the entire realm of FRPG owes a great deal of its existence to The Hobbit (the novel), both in inspiration to designers and in terms of drawing in gamers.

On GW's success or lack of the same with The Hobbit tie-ins, I'll say that I bought some of the LotR product when it came out. I liked the plastic models in the sets and still think the rules are a great game. However, I traded off or sold much of what I purchased, though in my case it's because I realized that I just wasn't ever likely to paint the stuff, and made a conscious decision to focus on 10mm for my fantasy fix. I did look at The Hobbit line, pondering a change to that stance, but the entry cost is prohibitive. I got the initial LotR boxed sets for somewhere in the $40 USD range (on sale), but even then I felt the higher standard price was a good value for what was included. But the price of The Hobbits sets is beyond my entry point, and I suspect is beyond the entry point of most casual consumers. So it's clear to me that GW has decided to focus on marketing to its standard customer base rather than a broader fantasy market.

Lastly, as for the so called "Finecast" line, I'm not a fan of resin product lines, regardless of producer. Maybe I'm just too much of an '80s child, but I'm drawn to both plastics and metal, but resin minis will make me walk away from a purchase. For all the squawking about the price of tin, etc., I've never noticed that resin offers any kind of price value to me (in fact, generally the opposite), nor do I generally perceive any increase in quality (less, in fact) and I'm not much impressed by GW's attempt to pass their foray off as some "great thing." But then, I don't play or purchase GW's mainstays of WHFB or WH40K, or 28-32 mm lines in general, so perhaps my reaction is off base or atypical.

In any case, I'm not buying GW Hobbit product… but I am expanding my array of 10mm stand-ins for gaming The Hobbit and Lord of the Rings battles. If GW aided in that, they'd have a customer. Right now, they don't.

+1 for Parzival. Excellent divergence.

I also agree with Parzival.

However, as an older gamer, I did have the money to buy the Hobbit Goblin town and Great Eagle sets in my post above.

Older gamer too, and GW's LotR game & releases are what pulled me back into wargames having drifted off in the 80s/90s. The initial idea was to "learn" to paint 28mm figures (never attempted shade/wash/highlight before the Fellowship release) and got hooked on a quality product. I have large numbers of LotR figures for pretty much all factions, and still play the game. Even branched out (initially for painting purposes) into small Tomb Kings & Tau forces though they've rarely seen action.

The pricing for the Hobbit releases though pushed past my price tipping point and I have (somewhat sadly & reluctantly) decided not invest in the game. I have a well paid job and reasonable disposable income but I can't justify paying the current prices – unless they bring out a GOOD model of Smaug that I might get for display painting purposes. My other gaming purchases are now 15mm historical (with a bit of skirmish VSF) where I can raise a decent army for a fraction of what the Hobbit investment would have required. My games club have pretty much also avoided the Hobbit too. So GW is losing current customers on pricing reasons as well as (as some above have pointed out) making it less appealing to passing trade as a pick-up impulse buy.
Shame, I still think the LotR rules are some of the best single-figure rules I've played and the figures far better than GW's "normal" product, and it will be a pity if they ultimately wither for lack of players prepared to continue investing in them.

I don't know how much of the "conspiracy to keep the license out of someone else's hands" I buy, but I do feel like GW is effectively killing LOTR/TH with their sales model, intentionally or not.

It seems to me that they have essentially moved from the older LOTR production model of more single-part, realistically-scaled models per box to fewer multi-part, higher detail, more dynamic models. Sounds like a good trade off, but the result is that LOTR minis are priced like WFB/WH40K models, whereas they used to be a screaming good deal in comparison.

Last year's release did seem to rekindle lot of people's interest in the franchise, myself included, but GW have priced me out. The only The Hobbit models I own are plastic dwarves and Bilbo from EFGT (sans Thorin, unfortunately), picked up from a bits reseller.

I want the Mirkwood elves, but I just don't see it happening any time soon :/

FYI, GW has taken to down playing Finecast.

The latest Hobbit figures are up for pre-order and I quote from Thrain's description,

This resin kit contains 3 components with which to make Thrain the Broken armed with a dagger.

The older figues have a banner attached proclaiming "FINECAST"

I think that says a lot.

Xin

Just saw the Mirkwood plastics prices. AUD$70 for 10 and AUD$40 for a plastic Legolas!

WOW,just WOW.

I was going to pick up the rangers but not anymore.

Good Grief, it makes Warhammer proper look cheap!

'The Hobbit' (a fine book, and far superior to most 'ahdult litrachur' and remarkably different from recent films with the same title) is quite gameable with a variety of reasonably priced miniatures and rules from various manufacturers.

Problem solved.

I am happy with my large collection of LOTR figures and the LOTR SBG rules. I am just amazed at the Hobbit range prices. My FLGS is not even going to bring any in on stock – which is very unusual – as they know it won't sell.

The eventual release of the Smaug miniature will be interesting both in terms of the model and the price. I expect a hideous price but the model may just be in the 'I want that too much' bracket. Maybe.

According to December's White Dwarf magazine there is no big box game being released for the second Hobbit movie. There are several Character figures, including figures in barrels, but no "Escape from Goblintown". I think the sales from that were so poor they"ve scaled back a notch.
I would have bought "Escape from Goblintown", had it in my hands, saw the price, put it back. It didn't even include the full rulebook, they were selling that seperately. If it had been 60-80 dollars, OK. But 125 ?!?

On a similar note, I renewed my WD subscription the other day. I was asked if I wanted this year's special White Dwarf figure. I asked how much, and was told 35 dollars.
For
ONE
Figure????
I elected not to purchase it.

A lot of people on GW boards have been saying finecast is being phased out in favor of plastic kits, though they admit this will take quite a while.

I still wonder if the biggest driver of finecast was not wildly-fluctuating metal costs but instead concerns over recasting and the secondary market in general.