"Ramming Speed!" Topic

"A U.S. submarine rams a small Japanese ship on April 30, 1943. According to the caption, the sub's crew also lobbed Molotov Cocktails onto the deck of the stricken vessel."

Wow!! what a photo.
Thanks for sharing that.
Joe

Why waste a torpedo when you don't need to?!

Great pic, thanks!

Amazing.

I think this is USS Barb ( SS-220 ) , which had a pretty amazing record.

You can read more about her exploits here ( link )

They were lucky not to rip their hydroplanes or ballast tanks

I'd hate to be the two guys standing on the bow when the sub rams the ship. Not to mention that after ramming, the sub isn't going to be able to submerge.

Something smells funny about this picture – the perspective is all wrong for a submarine ramming a ship, no matter how small. No submarine is going to tower over a merchant ship like in the picture. Especially in a calm sea – if there were rough seas, the sub might be up on a wave, but in a calm sea, the sub should be looking up at the gunwales of the ship, not down. For the apparent distance between them, the ship is also way too small. Even if the photographer was on the conning tower, the bow would be below the gunwales of the ship and the photographer would appear to be at about the same height as the bridge of the ship, give or take.

In fact, thinking about the two guys at the bow, they seem surprisingly unconcerned about standing unprotected at the bow of a comparatively fragile submarine that is about to ram a ship. They aren't even looking at the ship!

I bet the picture of the sub has been doctored onto photo of the merchant.

Well the only sub I have found so far is the USS Growler on 8 November 1944. So it could be that the photo is doctored.
"Growler (SS-215) at Brisbane after ramming the 900 ton Japanese cargo ship Hayasaki. The front 25 feet of the bow was bent over in the collision, but the pressure hull was not damaged. While being riddled with machine gun fire, the wounded Capt Gilmore ordered the Growler to dive. "Take her down," were his orders to his crew. They dove with him and several others who had been killed still on the bridge. Gilmore was awarded the Medal of Honor for this action."

Robert

Yup, I'd read about the Growler action before, but couldn't remember what sub it was. When you consider 25 ft of the bow was bent over, that's pretty considerable damage for a sub. IIRC, they tried to stay on the surface as much as possible, and only submerged when they absolutely had to.

You would too if you couldn't clear 8 knots submerged, but 25 on the surface!

Even the pressure hulls weren't made from particularly thick steel, maybe 3/4" plate. Not like today's subs with 50,000hp and 4+" of battleship plate that can run into a mountain and still get home.

You'd be surprised how tall the bow of the old fleet boats were, Sundance, and how small those fishing boats are.

I think the sailors give a good indication Lion . Robert

I've been on board WWII US submarines and I've seen plenty of fishing boats. I'd still bet that pic's been doctored.

To clarify a bit, I've been on the Torsk (Tench-class), the Silversides (Gato-class) and the Cobia (also Gato-class) a number of times, as well as the U-505 and a Russian Foxtrot. The bows aren't as high as you'd like to think they are.

Just a guess based on the pic, the bow of the sub would have to be at least 20 feet above the water – it's approximately on level with the bridge of the ship (which would put the trawler's gunwales at about 5 feet), maybe even higher based on the angle of the photo. That's on par with the deck of a destroyer. Even fleet boats weren't that big.

And Lion, you should read the account of Growler's ordeal. They certainly weren't doing 9 knots submerged or 21 knots on the surface (its rated speeds) with 25 feet of bow bent over. In fact they were quite lucky to make it back to Brisbane – or anywhere reasonably friendly – at all. I don't remember off-hand the speed they said they were travelling, but it was excrutiatingly slow even for a submarine.

There was a reason submarines didn't ram ships (even ships were extremely hesitant to ram other ships or subs and only did it as an emergency measure) and that is part of the reason I doubt the authenticity of the picture, along with the perspective issues that I mentioned above.

If you have evidence the picture is real, or have documentation of a sub other than Growler ramming a ship, let us know. The actions of US subs in the Pacific are extremely well documented. I don't recall any subs besides Growler ramming a ship in any of the books I've read on the topic.

EDIT: The Barb did ram a trawler – purported to be the picture above according to daveshoe's reference, but the picture caption claims it was taken in 1943 and Barb rammed the trawler in 1945. Again casting doubt on what it claims to be.

I wonder by who and why the photos were doctored. Robert

Assuming that's the same size as current Japanese fishing boats (likely, IMO), those are more like 3' gunwales. Those light fishing boats have very low sides.

Bridge/pilothouse is maybe 12 feet above the water.

I agree the photo doesn't look right. If it's not a fake then I'd guess that it was taken somewhat BEFORE the ram took place and the trawler is actually quite a distance away. Perhaps the sub's bow has risen up on a wave and just looks to be towering over the trawler?

Well thanks for the opinions guys . Robert

Photo-shopped, or the equivalent. The submarine part of the picture is of a submarine, I would guess, coming alongside, with a couple of sailors forward for mooring, which would explain their casual stance. It has then been superimposed over a Japanese fishing vessel, which appears to be quite substantial, rather than one of those light wooden ones, which are very sharply curved fore and aft, like this link The perspective would otherwise suggest that the height of the submarine's focsle is about 25-30, more like the freeboard of a cruiser…..

U-210 just before being rammed by HMCS Assiniboine (August 6, 1942).

I keep thinking "Doesn't the sub have a deck gun and likely a large machine gun for this kind of work? So, why would you want to ram them and risk damage when either could take that fishing boat apart quite easily?"