"Russia 1808-1811?" Topic

Yes, I am sure. No such documents founded. Only misinterpreted words from Viskovatov.

@ sho Boki

Do you have any links for further or other discussions on this topic? Even if they are Russian, as I will try to use Google Translate.

Here are one russian forum about "1812 kiwer", where Sergei advertise your position, quoting Viskovatov, and all others disprove this. Many specialists involved.

reenactor.ru/lofiversion/index.php/t5436-0.html

Spasiba. Babelfish will be used shortly.

a very complex story, I am not convinced that the "kiwer" in the Russian Army was the result of bad observation of contemporary artists or of German invention or of hard use of the usual shako of 1809, or of private initiative of Russian officers.

The Elberfeldmanuscript shows clearly the kiwer for the Russo German legion in more than one print – in contrast none of the usual regular Russian troops do have the "1812" pattern, yet prints published in France of 1814 / 15 and as well as Klein show this "1812" pattern.

When complete units (even initially a small amount) of that "1812" pattern shakos were equipped with (like the Russo German legion, who was completed equipped and uniformed by the Russians) there should have existed some sort of regulation about the constuction.

For the German nations, I did find only two prints in the Elberfelder manuscript – one of Meckelenburg, the other of a Breslauer Jäger and again one Swuede, non of the Brunswickers are shown with the kiwer.

v W, i checked out the Russian language linked Sho Boki supplied and it essentially repeated the same debate, which is:

There are no official notes or specs for the 1812 concave shako.

OTOH, there are period drawings of the 1812 shako, albeit in Germany in or after 1813.

So the case is not decided.

I suggest the next step is to consider if the drawings could have been mistaken or drawn after the fact from faulty memory.

Is it possible that a damaged or deformed shako was mistaken for a regulations shako by an artist and this error somehow became considered the "normal shako"?

Here are another similar forum about this topic.
reenactor.ru/lofiversion/index.php/t69048-0.html

Theses.
- There are no so called "1812 kiwers" before 1813 in Germany. (Leonov)
- Headgears, specially made as "1812 kiwer" by individual order, are weared by officers, mostly by guard officers.
Czar forbade the use of such kiwers in 1814.
- Guard kiwers differs at line ones and looks like more as "1812 kiwers".
- In 1812 was changed the material, from which were manufactured the 1808 shakos. (Uljanov)

Thanks. Can you explain your last comment re "material" a little more?

From 1812 the kiwers were made from leather, says Uljanov.
Before this from another material, I don't know the exact material.. cloth or felt.

the Elberfelder picture manuscript shows the whole Russo German Legion in concace shako – the rest of the Russian Army in the convential pre 1812 one.
so the artist could very well observe the different shape.
Now – what is interesting is – that the Russo German legion was formed in 1812 and go most likley the new patters in uniform and equipment which was made in 1812.

Despite the Russian Emperor forbade to wear the convace shako in 1814 there is plenty of French and German sources just showing precisly that shako, like Klein oder the French engravers showing Russian troops in Paris.

I was under the impression that the 1808 shako was made from felt and leather (similar to the French shako).

From 1812 the kiwers were made from leather, says Uljanov.
Before this from another material, I don't know the exact material.. cloth or felt.

!!!!! But all reproduction 1812 kiwers I have ever seen are made out of felt!

von Winterfeldt.
Through my last link are seen picture of Russo-German Legion infantry officer with 1808 shako and comments says, that hussars wore the same. And that Legion get concaved shakos in 1814, as illustrated in the Elberfelder picture manuscript.

Additionally there are photos of Prussian Guard shakos 12.1813, made as copies of russian "1812 kiwer". Looks like usual 1808 shako for me.

huevans011.
Before 1812 there was only felt or cloth, trimmed with leather straps, after 1812 there was leather, covered with cloth. As I read.

Sho Boki
I agree that the Russo German Legion in the Dömitzer Bilderhandschrift show a rather short shako but with a flat top, which is not concave.

Elberfelder BH

Russo German Legion Infantry – 10.3.1814 – shako with flat top
Russo German Legion Infantry 13.3.1814 – shako with concave top
Russo German Legion Hussar – 13.3.1814 sako – seemingly concave top.
Russo German Legion Husar – 13.2.1814 (13.3.1814) – shako with concave top
Russo German Legion Jäger – 13.2.1813 – shako with concave top
Russo German Legion – Artillery – 15.3.1814 – shako with concave top

Neither the Meißner, nor the Landecker BH show Russian troops with shako fo concave top.

However the shako is also often shown to be of low height (like the kiver with concave shape) but with flat top.

Was there a sort of intermediate design, there the 1808 pattern shako was higher

Did the Guard have a shorter sako than the line?

Herbert Knötel did a sketch according to an original item of 1809 which is quite low.

"However the shako is also often shown to be of low height (like the kiver with concave shape) but with flat top."

This is 1808 shako. Height 17,5 cm.
Higher was 1805 shako (with 1807 trimming), weared by Warlord figures.

Sho Boki, does anyone recount what the inside of the Russian shako was made of? Just wondering if it was stiffened with cardboard or how else it maintained its shape.

I'm still pondering whether the concave top shakos could be damaged or rain-sodden.

It's very illuminating to hear people talk about errors in Wiskavatov. Here in the U.S. we generally have to assume that actual Russian sources about Russian uniforms are right, because we see so few of them. We don't have any other references, so we go with what we have.

My question is this: where are there original Russian uniforms from the period (or parts of them), and do they have any actual examples of the concave shako? There's this one, which looks like it might be concave (but one can't be sure from the front), but it's a Guard shako:

While the lack of a surviving example wouldn't definitely prove they weren't issued, if there is a surviving one (that isn't the above Guards one, if that is original) then we could at least establish that it existed. I'm not having much luck finding anything on-line, but expect more useful searches could be made in Russian.

Having said that, it's really annoying to find out that all the Napoleonic Russian figures I've ever painted have been wrong. Even worse, the concave shako looks really cool and makes the Russians so distinct. I'll miss them when I start painting Russians again.

The original shakos I did handle so far (no Russians however) are quite light and have no stiffener, just felt and leather and at the inside a leather head band with a linen crown.

The leather top gives a good stability.

I am not aware what kind of originals there do exist in St. Peterburg, Moscow or other museums.

the concave shape shako did exist, like Russo German legion of 1814 or prints and engravings of Russians in France 1814 or Klein of 1814 show

Having said that, it's really annoying to find out that all the Napoleonic Russian figures I've ever painted have been wrong. Even worse, the concave shako looks really cool and makes the Russians so distinct. I'll miss them when I start painting Russians again.

But the concave shako would seem to exist, the proof being contemporary drawings. The only issue is whether it was an official pattern and how widespread it was.

looking at the picture manuscripts so far, they seemed hardly been worn in 1813 and 1814.

I hate that feeling too. Once I was so proud to have just painted a whole regt of the 3eme Hussards and I went to the library to look at some hussar artwork.

And then I found a lot of 3eme hussards photos with BLACK cartridge belts. Black??!! I had believed all French units wore white. Yes, they did…. except the 3eme Hussards, it seems….

There are one man in russian forums (Leonov), who seemingly collect information and prepare to publish some works about russian kiwers, especcially guard ones.
And another man (Uljanov), who already publish his article about 1808 shako. He suggest to wait for Leonov's article with approving documents and meantime don't panic about 1812 kiwer, as things are unclear.
In same time some historians (Popov) disclaim all concave kiwers in his own previous works.

Thanks, SHo Boki.

Can you post on this board when the Leonov article is released?

OK! I myself wait impatiently. But this is unknown, when.

Popov does not "disclaim" (reject) the concave kiver. He just says his book is about facings, not the cut of the uniforms, and should not be taken as an opinion.

Yes, thanks. This is exactly what I meant.

What we need are photos from Russian museums that have actual shakos in their collections.

What we need are photos from Russian museums that have actual shakos in their collections.

This is a much clearer statement of what I was trying to express in my post of the 26th. Unfortunately, all the Russian museum pages that might show them seem to be in Russian, which I don't speak.

Excellent thread. I think that there actually are some contemporary illustrations clearly of the "1812" pattern concave topped low shako being worn during the 1812 campaign itself.

The eyewitness (albeit on the French side) artists Faber du Four and Albrecht Adam do show some Russian casualties and prisoners very definitely in these shakos in scenes of actions in the summer of 1812.

Also, these shakos are not just shown in the fully composed post-war prints we are familiar with- they are also seen in some the actual campaign sketches by these artists. The illustrations show many other very interesting details- eg men wearing mixtures of formal equipment (including the shako in question) and items of peasant clothes, which makes it seems to me that the artists actually saw these Russians and drew exactly what they were wearing.

Adding to the body of info about slightly later illustrations- in 1813, Georg Adam shows several Russian infantry and Hussars of various regts wearing the "1812" pattern shako. In 1814 N D Finart shows almost all the Russian infantry and Hussars he illustrates in this shako.

I don't doubt that many/most Russian troops in 1812 wore the 1808 pattern shako with later additions such as cords and racquets (were these additions officially sanctioned btw??). But logic, and some of the points above, make it seem to me unlikely that all the "1812" pattern shakos were just informally procured replacement items made in Germany.

Overall, although there has been some very interesting new info presented, the personal conclusion I am drawing is the slightly dull and traditional one that both the well documented 1808 shako and the less well documented "1812" shako were worn in 1812, the latter pattern being seen often enough to mean that it was not just some informal variation.

Just my tuppence worth.

Dear Seneffe
A sound summary of this confusing area. There were a number countries that adopted the M1812 pattern shako. The Brunswickers 1815, Swedes 1813, Prussians in 1816 for example.

My understanding was that the Russian shako was changed again in 1816ish because the Tsar preferred the Prussian style.

Also the lack of standardisation. Could the areas where shakos have been manufactured been captured in 1812 and hence the designs. I am finding huge variations in manufacture of Russian Guns and Firearms.
Stephen

I chatted w Alan Perry about the thread and he supplied me w a page of compiled pictures of the concave top shako. Most – if not all – seemed to be 1813 or later.

The picture is less clear than Seneffe suggests. There are at least 2 variations in pattern of the concave top shako.

As well, many Russian reenactors – including the Ilya Ulyanov mentioned above – wear a flat-top shako which is lower than what is traditionally thought of as the 1808 model.

The picture I am getting is a number of variations depending on the colonel's whim or perhaps which depot was supplying your regt or bn.

Seneffe – good poing about Faber du Faur and Albrecht Adam.

As for the shako of 1812 – whatever model – there seem to be some variations as well as the lower then 1808 modell but also quite tall shakos as well.

I am looking forward to see those compiled pictures

Stephen, Von W, thanks. Glad to contribute.
Huevans- I'm not suggesting the picture is clear. I'm just saying that there are eyewitness sketches of a shako which I think many would recognise as an "1812" style concave top shako being worn on campaign (by line troops judging from their insignia) during the summer of 1812.
That were were some differences between batches, or between manufacturers, is of course very probable. Whether this classifies them as distinct variants I don't know.
The prints quoted I guess are familiar enough not to require scanning/linking, and they do follow the original sketches quite closely in respect of uniform detail such as this- although poses, facial expressions etc are sometimes modified.

@ Seneffe – If one accepts that there was no official change to the pattern of shako in 1812 – which was Sho Boki's initial point – and that the various appearances of Russian headgear were variations from different manufacturers, then it is quite possible that the concave top shako styles were available in 1812.

My earlier point about there being insufficient time to authorize a new pattern in January 1812 and then manufacture and supply the design before the French invasion in late June is no longer relevant if the January 1812 date is not significant.

The various styles of "1808 / 1812" shako could have been around since 1808! The concave top shako could have been worn in 1809 against the Whitecoats or in 1810 against the Swedes.

I would also be intrigued to hear a couple of the details re variations in musket that Stephen mentions, if only to try and get a better handle on how disparate Russian manufacture was.

Dear Seneffe
We definitely have a confused picture of the headwear for the Russians. Do we know where shakos were officially made or were they made locally. Lowere shakos use less materials. There was huge variations among the Pruissian reserve and Landwehr.

It was a very interesting point that was made about the supply of uniforms in 1813. Most of the Green Cloth came from Silesia and the manufacture was in Prussia. This is a small remark by Knotel on one of his plates of Russian Opolechenie in 1813.

There were three distinct versions of the so-called 1805 guns. It was only by 1805 that the huge variations between the arsenals production of gun tubes and especially carriages was in control. This was the influence of Gascoigne and other Scotsmen that were imported to improve gun founding and manufacture around St Petersburg.

We think of facturies manufacturing goods. This was probably only true in Britain at this time. Even the French preferred small facilities.

Stephen

"It was a very interesting point that was made about the supply of uniforms in 1813. Most of the Green Cloth came from Silesia and the manufacture was in Prussia. This is a small remark by Knotel on one of his plates of Russian Opolechenie in 1813"

Interesting – can you give a quote and the source, Like Knötel plate ….

I recall it was the Russian Militia Plate for 1813. Sorry I cannot be more specific. I remember reading it when I was preparing my book on the Russian Opolchenie over a decade ago.
Stehen

I wonder how poor Prussia which had enormous difficulties to kit her own armies could afford to dress the Russian Army??

I wonder how poor Prussia which had enormous difficulties to kit her own armies could afford to dress the Russian Army??

It couldn't. I would guess there was more uniform-making capacity available than the Prussians could afford to use, so the Russians used the left-over capacity.

Since the British were paying for both, it was probably a moot point to those making them whether the uniforms were blue or green.

I found a very small image of an ebay auction online of what may be the militia plate you are looking for. It was a tiny thumbnail but it looked to be in Band XII. Looking through my files, I found it as well, though the text is hard to read and I don't speak German so cannot help much more than that!

Yes, I've seen that plate and I'm sure it indicates they were resupplied by the Prussians in 1813. IIRC they were sketched at one of the sieges- Danzig or Glogau etc. Some have buttoned Landwehr style coats rather than the wraparound kaftans of the original issue. Overall, many figures do look rather more like Prussian Landwehr than Opolchenie.

Most of the contemporary prints do not show the closed collar and Kiwi Shako until 1813 at the earliest.

I love those -- so colourful!

apart form the very colourfull Kiwi – I did not find on the Knötelplate any reference that the Silesian province furnished the green cloth for the Russians in 1813

Dear von Winterfeldt
Most of the manufacture of cloth was done in Silesia. The Prussians were supplying green cloth an sometimes uniforms to Russian from at least from Catherine II reign.

Sorry I was linking various bits of information.
Stephen

Little experiment. Models of french and russian shako shapes.

Are we including all Russian troops in this discussion i.e. Hussars as well or are we just looking at the infantry?

How would a year's worth of campaigning effect the look of a Shako? Maybe the dip occurred as a result of rain, snow, sleet mixed with lots of sun?

Hussars have the same kiwer as infantry.
Haythornthwaite wrote, that (after introduction the 1812 kiwer) in 1814 some hussar regiments continued wear the 1808 kiwer (Elberfeld MS).

I agree that earlier shakos would have been worn post 1812, indeed all armies tended to transition from one piece of uniform to another in fits and spurts not in a uniform way (pun intended!) wargamers like to think happen. Take Austria for instance. In 1809 the shako was decreed the headgear for the line troops yet it took several years to replace the helmet through a unit by unit process of replacement. However, we have no conclusive evidence to know when all units received their shako?! Great discussion and very informative, thank you gents!

The discussion is far from being over – I ask myself – is it possible that the Russians – or part of them – did still wear in 1812 / 13 the leather re-inforced 1802 modell of 1807?

I see 3 different shakos on contemporary prints, a shako, which looks like the French one of 1810, another one, quite low but with straight top and another one with cured top.