"Pike and Shot rules - question on unit make up" Topic

I played my first game of pike and shot this past weekend. Had something come up that I need some help from folks who play pike and shot.

The stats are separated for pike and musket units. Different stamina, morale and hand to hand. The issue is that we have a mix in the unit with pike being in the middle.

If I fire on a unit like that how do determine who is hit? The morale save is better for pike. Do you consider the unit not as a whole but as three unit types? 2 musket and 1 pike and if so do you fire for each of the flanks separately?

If anyone knows of one, I would like to be pointed to a link of a good example of play. I tried the warlord forum but nothing was there.

Thanks in advance for the help.

Matthew

I believe that you shoot at the closest unit. Since the pike and shot are all seperate units then you would shoot at which ever is closest and if it is equal you can pick.

Hmmmm seems that others had this same question.

TMP link

But I am looking for how people using the pike and shot rules handle mixed units.

Thanks,

Matthew

This is one of the main problems with Pike and Shotte. They are not really geared towards the type of mixed units found in the ECW.

Personally, I would create a new set of stats for such "combined" units (along the lines of similar mixed units in Hail Caesar).

Combined stats was an option we we thinking of. Also we thought that firing would use the musket stats and hand to hand would use the pike stats.

I like the look of the era, just frustrating rules.

Thanks.

Matthew

I am a big fan of Piquet Anchor of Faith, in which most units are mixed units--portrayed as 2 bases of shot and 2 bases of pike. These rules follow the advice above--create new unit stats, with your two base lines being an all-pike and all-shot units. You can then generate stat lines for 1/1 or 2/1 shot/pike ratios depending on the quality/armament of the particular unit.

One option, if you don't like it as written, is to use the pike company rules in Pike and Shot from the Nine Years War part. Basically it counts all units as musket units with pike attached. You can modify the abilities slightly to allow for it to include more close combat/less shooting as you feel would be appropriate.

So if you are modelling a unit that had 1:1 pike:shot you might make it have more close combat attacks and less shooting than a unit that had 1:2 pike:shot and so forth.

I like the look of the era, just frustrating rules.

Dare I say, have a look at "Victory Without Quarter"?

These rules?

link

Mixed units seems to me to be the 'Big Thing' about Renaissance period/rules. And very few seem to do well in that regard.

These rules?

Yes, they're the ones.

Major, I will have to have a look when I get home. The smart phone is being dumb.

The thing is, I don't own the figures or the rules being used. I have the game room and the terrain. I like the look of the era so being able to host the game yet not purchase the figures helps me satisfy that, "oh, shiny.". Feeling and not add to the unpainted masses. I like the artillery and cavalry. I am hoping to paint some Scottish dragoons.

@joker, thanks for posting the link.

Matthew

A regiment of pike and shot is typically represented using 2 shot sleeves and a pike block. So 3 units operating together. Ths shot provide the firepower as 2 separate units for shooting purposes and the pike provide the melee muscle and 'hedgehog' protection against cavalry/other infantry.

Once you get your head around that you will be fine. There diagrams in the rule book showing how to handle shooting and melee involving multiple units.

So 3 units operating together.

But that is not how ECW units fought.

See how confused I am folks? New era for me and trying to get things working correctly.

I thank everyone for the help here. I will continue to wade forward into this mire because of the shiny toys at the other side. :-)

Matthew

"But that is not how ECW units fought."

Prove it.

To the bigger question, it's not rocket science. In the rules a Regiment is a pike block and two wings of shotte, each can operate separately, but benefit from staying within 3" so they can support and form hedgehog.

The only house rules we use is you can only form hedgehog with your own Regiment.

If you think that this is terrible and that the shotte could not possibly have operated as individual units ever, then simply make them one single unit and use the pike company rule.

"But that is not how ECW units fought."

Prove it.

Sorry, should have added "as far as we know". No, we cannot prove it. Any more than anyone can prove the opposite.

We can agree on some aspects of joint pike and shot operations. There was shot and there was pike. We can agree on that. They did different things on the battlefield. we can agree on that. The rules represent this just fine.

Agree with mrplant on this. If your group uses shot sleeves as nippy little independent detachments ( we don't) then it is easy to give them an incentive to stay together. You could mandate it as mrplant suggests, or you could give a negative modifier to stamina or to break tests when not within a couple of inches of the regiment. You could also give cavalry a bonus against shot caught unprotected. Not a big deal really.

I think too much fuss is made of the sub-units in Pike & Shotte, but it's only game and meant to be fun so if you don't enjoy it there are alternatives as many have pointed out.

My preference is to keep them as one unit. In the game we allowed them to be separate yet kept them close to each other. One wing of shot and one pike block were charged and I gaged in hand to hand. The other wing was fired upon. The me lee resulted in both the wing and pike block routing off the table. The left wing stood its ground. That seemed odd to us. If two thirds of the unit just beat it from the field I just can't see the last wing sticking around. Thus my preference to keep them acting as one unit.

And the rule quotes would be more helpful with page references. I do appreciate the quotes, but the rules are scattered a bit as are the black powder rules. If one is new to the era it is not intuitive. And the diagrams and pictures, as well as the stats them selves show wings and blocks.

I am just trying to understand how other folks play pike and shot rules handle these situations.

So far I see that using one unit and combining the stats together seems to be a preferred method.

Anyone able to tell me how they would have handled the else and the separate wing not in melee being fired upon?

Thanks.

Matthew

No, we cannot prove it. Any more than anyone can prove the opposite.

Well, there are plenty of references that seem to suggest whole combined units doing the same thing together … and none that attest to this sub unit articulation some posters assert … so it's pretty clear where the balance of historical probability lies.

We can agree on some aspects of joint pike and shot operations. There was shot and there was pike.

In the same units, yes …

We can agree on that. They did different things on the battlefield. we can agree on that

Not sure I agree with the implication there … they didn't really do 'different things' at the same time. They fight much more like early 18th century regiments – just not everyone has a musket and the guys with muskets don't have bayonets so have to improvise.

Cavalry shouldn't need a bonus against shot 'caught unprotected' away from their pikes because, apparently, they don't operate away from their pikes.

When I played in the Naseby refight run by Steve Morgan using Pike & Shotte, I confess the whole cavalry/shot interaction thing was completely baffling, totally out of skew with what happened in accounts of the battle because the rules just don't model the mixed units properly.

Phil
ECW Battles

I'm sorry but please start your own topic for discussions of what we can and can not know from history. It is interesting and all, but please don't hijack my thread.

I need help with a particular set of rules not research.

Thank you.

Matthew

I have looked at this myself, and agree that having a pike unit rout while its two sleeves are quite okay seems a bit odd.

Personally, I am considering tweaking the 'sub-unit' rules from 'Hail Caesar' to suit. Basically – in my tweak – the sub units have to stick close, and the loss of the main unit would mean the attached sub-unit(s) have to retire asap too. Loss of a sleeve (or an attached skirmisher screen – I am looking at treating both the same way) would not cause the main unit to retire, though of course it would expose them to more danger tactically.

Mind you, I game the early P&S period where pike units tended to be large and the sleeves were quite small in comparison.

For ECW I would not be sure which would be the unit and which would be the sub-unit.

Historically we know how they drilled (Barriffe,Elton,Ward)
are contemporary drill manuals.
The ECW field regiments was more flexible than we give them credit for, there are usually between 7 to 10 companys in each regiment and each company is made up of Pike & Shot.
At Edgehill the Roundheads used the Dutch Brigade system where the Pike are massed centrally and there where two wing of shot and the Royalist on the other hand used the Swedish Brigade system units of pike & shot are used in a sort of diamond formation.

Commanded Shot and Forlorn Hopes where never fixed unit, these units where musketeers draw out of the regiments at hand.

Most wargames rule have to fudge there Foot vs Horse rules DBR as long as pike & shot stands are in corner to corner contact and in FOG-R the unit has pike and is not fragmented the foot do not need to form Hedgehog, ring or schiltron to receive a bonus, Shot in the open will probably be ridden down by Horse in most sets of rules.

Thanks for those ideas.

Another issue I see is that the pike have a higher stamina than musket units. I am sure it has to do with representing the larger size of the pike blocks. This allows pike to stick around longer. So maybe the unit is the pike block with the two musket units the sub units.

Matthew

Love to discuss all that Mac1638 … but I've never intended to hijack any threads on this forum – so all I will do is, again, support 45thdiv's plea for mixed units.

It sounds like there is a fix available within the period adaptations (just it isn't applied as standard to ECW, which seems a pity given my own experience with P&S games where the units are configured separately).

Phil

All the Regiment's Colours where with the Pike, the pike was considered a Gentleman's weapon, may be why the stamina is higher?
and/or
The ratio of pike to shot in a regiment varies during the war at the start 1642 the Royalist may have only had a 1 pike to 1 shot and the Roundheads 2 pike to 3 shot but as the war proceeds they both move towards the 1 pike to 2 shot.

I have only played Pike and Shotte twice and was not overly impressed by them for ECW, like Phil some one else had organised the games I played in.

The only rules I have played where the unit a has pike and shot together are the 6mm rules produced by Bacchus.

Sorry I can not be more helpful
I will go and dig out my copy of Pike & Shotte and see if I can make any sense of it?

Mac

Yesthatphil, seems a bit pedantic.

"they didn't really do 'different things' at the same time"

Pikemen carried a pike, muskeeteer carried a musket. They did not have the same role. They operated together yes, but this simple distinction means they are doing different things at the same time, and I think we agree they did these different things to support each other in a single unit formation.

In Pike and Shotte these two elements have different roles as evidenced by the stats. There are plenty of simple ways to keep them together in a single formation or regiment if you don't trust yourself or your opponents to do this, despite the incentives and penalties for breaking them up.

The sub-units system also allows you to represent Swedish brigades and some of the other more esoteric drill book formations if you that's something that interests you.

As for units routing separately – The rules as written require supporting units to test if the unit they support breaks and this can result in pike fleeing but shot staying or vice-versa – but if you don't want this outcome, it is easily solved by taking a break test per regiment – and not per sub-unit.

"Cavalry shouldn't need a bonus against shot 'caught unprotected' away from their pikes because, apparently, they don't operate away from their pikes."

A very confident statement which I don't think you wholly believe. There are already penalties in the rules to encourage shot to stay with pike – and this reflects the very real penalty on the battlefield that kept shot close top pike support when cavalry were around. I was pointing out that you could make the penalty more severe if you think it is encouraging gamey play amongst your group.

Incidentally I'd be interested in hearing stories of this sort of play, because its always thrown out as a problem for pike and shotte but I haven't seen the "nippy little independent detachments syndrom" myself.

Mac, I would suggest that the higher stamina for pike is to encourage the pike to be used for melee, rather than shot. This is similar to the rank/weapon bonuses for pike in WECW.

Pike ratio can be varied in a regiment by combining a large pike unit with small shot units or any of the other small/med/large combinations.

Of course if you don't like the rules for some reason and are not open to being persuaded then this debate doesn't matter. As I said before its only a game and you have to enjoy playing it without these niggling doubts bothering you.

"please don't hijack my thread"

This is TMP, the home of hijacked threads.
And tempests in teapots.

Yes, I know this is TMP and hijacking is the nature of the game. Just trying to bring it back on topic. I think the last few posts have helped me to take a look at some options.

Matthew,

Shame you didn't ask me first. :-)

Simple answer, is you need to play a set of unit rules, that reflect pike/shot as one combined arms unit. As you know, I use Forlorn Hope. Just schedule some time to come over (with Chris), to learn the rules. You'll find them fast/easy once I walk you through them and you use the Quick Ref Sheet and One Table Combat Factors that I developed, and then as they say -- "Bob's your uncle"!

Going well chaps, apart from this fixation on the administrative term Regiment.

Anything bigger than a skirmish- and possibly even then- different regiments were mixed together to get similar sized unit- within which musket pike ratio would vary for various reasons

500 Pikes cannot totally protect 1,000 musketeers from harm, but I'm sure that they gave it a try

sorry for the Hijack!