"Please Read: Member Advisory" Topic

That's weird, I'd never heard claims about trafficking for major sports events. I don't doubt that workers travel to them, though.

BrotherSevej, I'm a white north american married to a black Brazilian who looks like she's half my age (although she's only 7 years younger than me). We live in Rio de Janeiro.

How often do you think we get pointed out as a dirty old gringo and his child bride? We've actually been asked to leave restaraunts because of this prejudice and we had to threaten to sue one.

Then there's this…

news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/8240989.stm

"Moral panic" is really the only way to describe this situation. That doesn't mean, of course, that millions of people aren't sexually abused and/or exploited annually, of course.

But we're going on a global witch hunt, really, and people like Lord Raglan are getting very excited at the prospect of being asked to point out who should be burned at the stake.

When I think of the crap I see in my research every day – sure 'nough abuse of sex working men and women – I can't begin to express my disgust at a self-proclaimed expert who wants to play High Inquisitioner and waste public time and funds by making arrant and inflamatory accusations of sexual abuse.

There's a name for people like that: bullies.

The irony is that the term 'bully' originated as a descriptive for pimps. Emma Goldman had a better term for folks who surf on waves of public indignation over trafficking: she called them "parasites".

I work with a lot of women who came from the Philippines in my IT job. Some of them look like they are twelve – and I mean they make our new Editors look old – and they are late 20s and in cases well into their 30s. Some have kids who are almost teens. Genetics means they look young for a long time.

I didnt stifle him,…

Didn't think *you* did Rogzombie!…

I "dumped"/erased nearly ALL of my stifle "list" several months(?) ago. Many of the same names are back on though…

I guess I'm a LOT less tolerant than many here.

Charlie

Wait wait wait.

This is the same Lord Raglan that posted how his "favorite type of women" are prostitutes, right?

TMP link

Methinks the lord doth protest too much…

Now, Macunaima, you have won the discussion hands down. I always like a good citing to prove a point – not that I disagree with you, but it always looks better with proof.

Thumbs up!

Maybe you guys can remember the scene in "The Big Bang Theory" when Penny walked into the comic book store and the guy shoppers all froze . Some gamers just can't handle females

Macunaima, I see a lot of this hatred directed at young looking women. The comments are usually she looks like 12!
Its not just big time operators, its a societal thing. I know a model on FB who constantly gets this crap. Also gets alot of 'you must be anorexic'. A lot of people are using this witch hunt to fuel their jealousy and hate.

I once posted some Japanese cosplayers and some woman threw a fit saying they were under aged and all this BS having no idea how asians age differently.

If you search though there is often an under current of jealousy or lust that cant be fulfilled. Often the women saying these things are older or over weight. The men are often the type who could never get these girls so they throw hate mail at them.

Well, to give the Devil his due, Darth, I like prostitutes, too. That doesn't mean I'm paying for their services, however.

Editor Claire wrote: "Bill is not hiring us because of any self-interest. In fact, these jobs are helping us. I am now able to help feed my family."

It is good to hear from one of the actual editors on this. Welcome Claire. Feeding and housing my family is why I work too.

But I believe, and hope, that Bill does have self-interest in mind. It is in his interests to have a well-run, well-edited site. He is obviously in the best position to make the hires to achieve that. And he has.

Please do not be too concerned Claire. I can see how this can be upsetting to say the least, but this nonsense will blow over soon, and the 'well run, well edited' bit will be the only thing that matters.

@Macunaima

Fortunately, not yet, since we rarely travel aboard. And the foreigners we meet are usually very understanding. I'm of the same race as my wife, actually look quite young (flattering myself), but I let my facial hair grow (can't stand shaving regularly), so I do look like happy uncle.

However, there was a funny accident when we were requested to become witness in a friend's wedding this April. We had to stay in a guest house. We arrived late (11PM) due to me picking the wife in the train station (we used to live in different cities). When we arrived in the guest house, there were already some of the groom's relatives. They looked at us strangely while the room boy whisked us to our room.

Next morning I was told by my friend that his uncle made a remark akin to "Your witnesses? But they're just kids!" (I was shaved for the occasion, although I wasn't for my own wedding!).

Whilst I agree that Lord Raglan has probably over reacted to the sudden surge of images of young females, nothing in his posts suggest insanity, nor has he bullied anyone that I can see, so labelling him as a mad bully is hardly helpful.

For the record, on other posts about half a dozen TMPers have recorded that they can, at least, see where he's coming from, so if he is mad then theres a fair amount of it about.

If there is no issue, no danger, than all will be well, but in the unlikely event that Lord Raglan is on to something, then he has done us all a huge favour. So now that he has taken the action that he has in referring his concerns to his US colleagues, hopefully all parties can leave things to run their course.

And, in the fullness of time, I hope Lord Raglan can return to TMP, where he has been a interesting and useful contributer.

Looking forward to TMP 4.0!!

I am one member who is seriously considering not renewing my supporting membership because of these issues. I just wasn't going to mention it because, as this thread shows, Bill is right,and the naysayers are wrong. If there is one thing TMP has taught me is that Bill is always right, any naysayers are always wrong.

The issues are the girls acting in sexualised ways eg the picture and the flirting with members, and that the behavior is condoned. They are not being taught that this is inappropriate

When there was a poll to talk about what sort of Miniature should be made as Julia, I was horrified. I tried making jokes as satire (eg we need a mini of Bill in a speedo) to lighten things up, but also putting in a dig to highlight that the poll and discussion was sexualising the girls, and that is as inappropriate as sexualising Bill (wash my eyes our with soap).

I don't think Bill is trying to traffic the girls. What he is condoning is using them to flirt with members. As the old advertising adage states, Sex sells. Bill is just using proven sales techniques to sell TMP and keep members. I however think it is offensive and inappropriate.

Now with the healthy, grown up, upstanding members of TMP, this would never happen I am sure, but what if a member oversteps themselves and starts sending propositions and inappropriate messages or requests? This would be sexual harassment.

What I see is Bill either ignoring or condoning problems which could lead to his staff being sexually harassed. I am not sure what labour laws are in the Philippines or the US, but in Australia he would be in serious trouble were the girls to make complaints. If Bill is that Naive and thinks it it just a bit of fun, then he is being extremely negligent. Firstly in not requiring his staff to act professionally and secondly in not thinking about their safety.

Bill, in whitewashing the photo incident, said that Julia and Smokey are friends. well, Julia is my 'friend' on FB too, but she's not really is she? to me she is an employee of TMP. The only reason she friended me on FB was because of my TMP connection, and I saw it as another way for Bill to manage client relationship. What Julia does on FB does reflect back on TMP. That the issue was between Julia and Smokey doesn't surprise me. I don't want to end up seeing what Smokey could send to Julia. Bill needs to make sure his staff are protected from harassment.

As I said, I have been considering not re-upping, reading Bills excuses, yet again about issues that concern me, is one more weight on the scale.

<<goes and grabs a bag of popcorn (because Bill is always right, any naysayers are always wrong) so I am waiting for the inevitable barrage of bile that will be coming my way>>

The issues are the girls acting in sexualised ways eg the picture and the flirting with members, and that the behavior is condoned. They are not being taught that this is inappropriate

I will talk with staff today and explain that this is not allowed.

When there was a poll to talk about what sort of Miniature should be made as Julia, I was horrified.

Julia was flattered that someone wanted to make a miniature of her. I was not involved in that arrangement. Do you think I should institute a policy against this?

Bill, in whitewashing the photo incident, said that Julia and Smokey are friends.

I don't think I was whitewashing anything, I thought it was important in context to know that they are friends outside of TMP.

Hmm…interesting, not sure Bill is using them to flirt. Maybe they just flirted on their own. After all 'they' are people and can make their own decisions, just a thought…..not saying you are wrong.

I was going to avoid this thread like the plague but given my past history with the Police ( I had the right to remain silent, I just didn't have the ability) I have to comment. I can see how a sudden influx of young good looking girls on the payroll might raise an eyebrow, that says more about the world we live in than anything else and, perhaps LR was coming from a place of good intention or maybe he has issues of his own, I haven't been here long and don't really know anyone. Having said that, I know from my own experience that running a community site such as this is sometimes a thankless task and from where I am standing at least, I think Bill appears to have been very open and honest about the whole sorry affair. Maybe some of the wargaming community needs to get out a bit more often. I shall now wait quietly for my stifle numbers to rocket

Mrs. P, good post. Thanks for expressing your thoughts even though you expect ridicule. I like you Mrs. P. You're different. I like different.

Good response Bill.

And good observation badwargamer. I *don't* think Bill or anyone is exploiting the new editors for SEX. I think that these women flirt with the customers because that is how they naturally relate to men. And I enjoy that. Please believe me, I enjoy it innocently, I'm too old and crafty to play the fool.

But I understand that some TMP members are uncomfortable with the flirtation. At one time I was such a rigid Stalinist that I would have been offended, Comrade Mrs. P. That rigidity was a way of covering for my own geekiness and discomfort with women. I've mellowed since then. Your motives are your own, no doubt different from mine, and I don't question or ridicule them. You're a paying customer just like I am and have every right to have your feelings and boundaries respected.

I hope this kerfluffle can have a happy ending for all of us. I would hate to lose you because the juvenile behavior of some of The Boys pushed you awy.

Bill says he has asked The New Editors to dial back the personal charm. So Bill does sometimes take advice. There are lots of places on the internet where young nerds and old goats can go to flirt with unobtainable young women. That is not what TMP is about. I hope we can keep all of our valuable, contributing members, especially those who are a little different.

Wow…

There are a lot of examples going on here of behavior, good and bad…

IMHO, LR's actions, fall somewhere between the "self-proclaimed expertise of the late Pat Pulling", and the literal legitimate referential accuracy of a Jack Chick publication (and we know which one we are talking about)…

20-30 years ago, I was involved with LE support in some of this occult craziness. I kind of heard some of the same reasoning that Mac put out on this…"Just because we don't see it, doesn't mean that it doesn't exist in the numbers that we are saying."

When Indy got the superbowl a few years ago, we also had the "Thousands of sex traffickers are coming to town." Guess what? About 50 hookers were buster over a two week time….ZERO were 'trafficked", and ZERO were underage. Most of them were local girls….go figure…

I guess after reading LR's statements, I'm kind of feeling that he has become the TMP version of Cotton Mather…

Now all we need is a Solomon Kane to come in and purge people….whether they need it or not…

Oh and as for gaming my CoC game looks like it's gonna be pushed back AGAIN….

And I just primed some 28mm graves…..

And I need to order some new Bob Murch Pulp Figs…

Hang in there, Bill. I greatly admire how patient you are and how you approach issues. Kindest regards – Hal

We have had our staff meeting, and I believe the editors all understand the new policy.

We have had our staff meeting, and I believe the editors all understand the new policy.

Sigh, probably wise, Bill, but sad that such is necessary. Puritans sometimes leech a lot of joy out of innocent things.

It is NOT Puritanical to ask for more professional decorum.

This was much ado about nothing! It sounds like LR and MM were both looking for attention. Good riddance to both of them.

"Professional decorum"

This is a hobby/social website. On other sites the "editors" are known as "moderators" and are EXPECTED to be part of the community and participate in the life of the site.

Try thinking of them as fellow members of the community first, and "hired help" second.

Puritanism: the politically correct attitude that prohibits innocent flirting within an office, lest it offend, does much harm and small good. It assumes that women are fragile beings requiring protection, and so is ultimately demeaning to them.

I see. What dictionary did you pull that definition from?

And it assumes nothing of the sort, because if male staff members were acting the same way, the reaction might well be even stronger. It's one thing to treat someone like they need protecting, it's another to teach them how to look out for themselves, which is what Mrs. P. Is talking about.

In my own work, our supervisor periodically has to take an intern aside and gently suggest that they not display so much cleavage, leg, midriff, etc. This is due in part to potential risk from our clientele (some of whom have impulse control problems, issues with misogyny, are sexual predators, or just downright creepy,) and also because their current style of dress detracts from their professional credibility and thus diminishes their clinical effectiveness. It is not coddling or over-protectiveness, or sexist: Most of the time, the individual simply didn't think there was anything out of the ordinary, and needed someone to instruct them on a concept which doesn't really get taught to women much these days. The smart ones take the feedback to heart, and they tend to do very well. Others get defensive and angry, and their attitude tends not to serve them well at all.

So now because of a few big headed people we have editors who are encouraged to act as robots and not add to the fun of a supposed hobby board. It seems like we expect a place made for fun to be 'professional' like the offices of IBM or bring in a 50s mentality.

My earlier comments have been verified perfectly by the so called 'reasonable' requests by those of us who have no life.
I hope to get some more stifles today. BTW when you stifle me I know my point is getting across.

Gearhead, have you ever been to a bar?

Go to a bar???

No way, there may be women there, it isn't safe…

On a positive note, this episode has caused me to seriously reconsider my attitude to wargamers generally.

I have decided to get out more, do something other than wargames and maybe even and meet some rounded people, rather than spending time indoors reading or on the computer.

Life is too short.

we have editors who are encouraged to act as robots and not add to the fun of a supposed hobby board

I've made it clear that I in no way favor the sort of extreme or actions that guys like L.R. have taken, but I do feel that there needs to be some boundaries. That does not mean that the new editors should act as robots.

Gearhead, have you ever been to a bar?

Your point being? We're taking about people at their job. Even bars have standards of what is considered inappropriate conduct, and bouncers to enforce them.

People on all sides of this discussion seem to be blowing things out of proportion. On one hand, we have people accusing Bill of trafficking or grooming people for exploitation, and on the other hand, we have people accusing anyone who thinks that a degree of professionalism (not roboticism) should prevail of being puritanical freaks who can't stand the sight of women and think that all girls should wear burkas lest they inflame our carnal lusts.

My point about the new guidelines is that it may stifle
the editors from being themselves and partaking in the
day to day posts made here. I have found from other big forums like this that the monitors, editors or whatever often are the most prolific posters. I would hate that they feel uncomfortable doing so.

I get a little crazy, people should take me with a grain of salt, I am really a cartoon character not a live human.

Really the thing that gets me out is when people attack my friends as this weirdo did to Bill in a very hostile and serious manner. Also when people attack others who may be different and not be accustomed to the prudish nature of some of our nationalities. I don't like to see innocent people have their feelings hurt or their employment challenged. Its downright nasty.

I agree with FirstBrigade. I worked in a company that had 80% young women. Maybe its hard for me to understand people who dont get it.

But really guys I appreciate the stifles, up to 62 now, I'm so proud ;)

Heh heh. In my field, women outnumber men by a LOT. In class, it was sometimes -no joke- 10 to 1.

Honestly Rogzombie, we agree on a lot of points. Attacking Bill with threats of going to the authorities was extreme and totally uncalled-for, as was threatening other members ("ooh, I know where you are!!") I absolutely do think that the new editorial team should take an active and fun role on the site, and I have no doubt they'll contribute a lot to the development of the site and community. I don't think they should be muzzled, I don't think they shouldn't be allowed to let their own personalities shine through in their work.

I also agree that the way some people have greeted them, questioning their qualifications, not-so-subtly accusing them of being hired just because of their looks or nationality, etc. has been awful and also uncalled-for. Hardly a good way to be welcomed to your new job!

But what also bugs me, and is the reason I'm taking the POV I am, is the way some folks seemed to be a bit over-excited about having a team of editors who happened to be female. At first it was funny, but after a while, when it didn't die down, it just started to get creepy and made me think that it might be a good idea to establish some boundaries.

I agree Gearhead, good points. I feel bad for the girls having to see our worst from both POVs. Too much love and not enough, lol.

Why were pictures of the editors posted in the first place? Why would any TMP user care what they look like? I don't care what Bill looks like. As long as the site functions I don't even care who the "editors" are.

w.

Question:

Why would any TMP user care what they look like?

Answer:

…editors who happened to be female.

QED =]

Why would any TMP user care what they look like?

Because they're a new part of the TMP family? And because, a few years down the road, they could be running this place?

Now wait a second: You need to appoint a trustee! Nothing divides a family quite as well as getting to squabble over the estate. I suggest DWW.

"Your point being? We're taking about people at their job. Even bars have standards of what is considered inappropriate conduct, and bouncers to enforce them."

I guess that means no.

So there are these places called bars. People go there to have a good time, relax, unwind and so forth. You might try it sometime. You could probably use it.

In these places called bars the waitresses dress in a certain way that probably would not be considered professional at, say, a bank.

Why I was at a bar in NYC called the Village Idiot once and the bartender was only wearing a man's shirt with two buttons buttoned.

The bouncers were not pulling her aside and telling her that her cleavage was hanging out too much.

Hooters is a bar/restaurant and their waitresses wear short shorts and tops that emphasize their cleavage.

It is totally appropriate for their workplace. It is actually professional dress. They flirt with the customers. They get better tips that way. It is professional.

I'm not sure what the dress code is on TMP. I'm sitting here in just my undewear right now. I don't expect to get kicked out for it.

I'm pretty sure, not 100% but close, that most people would like the atmosphere on TMP to more resemble the bar they hang out in than the office in which they work.

It would be somewhat puritanical to go into a bar and demand that the waitresses dress in business suits and have nylons on after Sept. 1 and wear a jacket at all times.

That is like the office I used to work in. I don't want to see people demanding that anyone, even the employees, here take things so seriously.

So calm down. This isn't the office. Grab a Dr. Pepper, put your feet up. I don't expect you to be wearing your tie when you read TMP. Don't expect the girls to dress a certain way when they edit it.

Good analogy Pictors. BTW I'm not wearing a damn tie for anyone!

Pictors, very well said.

>Why would any TMP user care what they look like?

>>Because they're a new part of the TMP family? And because, a few years down the road, they could be running this place?

No offense, but it's not really relevant to me what the people who run the website look like, either now or ever. If a person wants to look at pretty girls there are plenty of sites on the Internet (I've heard) where one can do this. I visit TMP for gaming content and occasionally, to watch the train wrecks. Great for you that you hired assistants but it was somewhat mystifying why you felt it relevant to post their pictures, other than on the normal "member" stats page or as an avatar.

Cheers

w.

But what also bugs me, and is the reason I'm taking the POV I am, is the way some folks seemed to be a bit over-excited about having a team of editors who happened to be female. At first it was funny, but after a while, when it didn't die down, it just started to get creepy and made me think that it might be a good idea to establish some boundaries.

yup

I don't think Raglan was right, I don't think Bill is grooming young Asian girls. I think what does make me feel ill is the amount of ass kissing suck up's there are on here. the whole thing was blown out of proportion and people made mistakes in handling it, but the usual suck ups rallying around the flag were out in force again immediately, it never matters what the issue is, they can never see any wrong. They probably support Tony Reidy and his latest fraud scheme too.

Congrats on 27 years Bill on a much more positive note.

…it's not really relevant to me what the people who run the website look like, either now or ever. If a person wants to look at pretty girls there are plenty of sites on the Internet (I've heard) where one can do this.

Can we get over the fact that so many people think the editors are "pretty"? They're here to work, and they have a right to be introduced to the community. There seems to be a double standard, since I doubt anyone would object to a picture of a guy in a T-shirt.

Bill: good point.

Alien: elaborate-so, if I agree with Bill on this issue I'm a suck-up? Always amazes me how painting with a broad brush is so much easier than specific commentary.

There seems to be a double standard, since I doubt anyone would object to a picture of a guy in a T-shirt.

Well it depends on what the tshirt says…

If it says "Pittsburgh STEALERS", (and yes I know how I spelled it and I meant it), I would be offended…

WOO -HOO Page 4!!!!