"Yugoslav Wars" Topic

Good evening

I'm debating branching out into small scale modern conflicts and have been reading into the Yugoslav civil wars of the early-mid 90's which have interested me since University – however I haven't been able to identify any suitable figures

Is this because it's considered a "griefy" conflict and a bit un-pc to wargame it?

Or am I just useless at using google to find miniatures?

F

Plenty of figures and equipment in 15, 20 and 28mm. To add realism make sure anyone playing the part of the warring factions has bad teeth and drinks plenty of cheap alcohol prior to and during the game! AK-47 lends itself to playing the conflict very well with plenty of treachery, confusion and UN dithering!

Tally Ho!

Peter Pig Makes some suitable figures in 15mm. Eureka makes some 15mm Modern Russians and Chechens that could be used.

There is a a good 20mm company for this theater too but cant remember the name.

Ive got lots of books on the conflict. If you are interested in any (cheap for the lot) PM me.

Try Liberation Miniatures for 20mm.
rhmodels.com

Yep , RH Models for their Eastern Europeans range, supplemented by various 'regular' equipped units …. Also have a look at Chechens for better equipped foreign volunteers (mujaheddin)…….played lots of games – often with three or four way victory conditions and opponents/ allies…….

Lots of massacres of civilians, mass rapes etc. as well to re-enact. Should be lots of fun.

Make sure your ramshackle armour has obscene insults painted on, the cruder the better!

Chouan, given your 'logic', defining a conflict by it's atrocities, WWII is right out. Lots of concentration camps and massacring civilians. Actually, most wargaming in any era, whatever the scale, is ruled out, as the strategic picture often involves atrocities committed by the combatants. A civilians lot in wartime is not a happy one, even if ostensibly their country has gone to war to 'save' their territorial integrity/values.

The atrocities to actual combat ratio was pretty high compared to most other wars people might consider gaming.

Empress Miniatures makes bought red star which has at least of what you are looking for there Insurgent force would also be usable. I don't know would the more generic ZNLA from Eureka work. The suggestions I am making are all in 28mm. Also looking to the future Empress is going to be holding another Kickstarter next year that is Eastern bloc based. Good Luck!

Here's a free Ebook that 's worth a look

link

As well as the figures listed above,I use some Platoon 20 Russians as JNA and some GDR (East Germans) as Croatians…….lots of diecast vehicles about too in 1/72 and even some WW2 kit like T34's and even Shermans and M10 tank destroyers…….

The atrocities to actual combat ratio was pretty high compared to most other wars people might consider gaming.

link

Civilian deaths due to military activity and crimes against humanity

Yugoslavia, 448k soldiers, 558k civilians
Romania, 300k soldiers, 599k civilians
Czechoslovakia, 25k soldiers, 300k civilians

WW2 didn't really have a great record, but you probably do need to pick your conflicts, or tailor your scenarios. Can't say as i have ever seen a scenario where the intention was to salughter as many civilians as possible…

Which is what "ethnic cleansing" usually became.
I'm not sure that any conflict whose purpose was mass killing is reasonable to game, or where killing or raping civilians was the main purpose of the military action. It doesn't matter whether the conflict is recent or historical.

You say it isn't reasonable, I say it's a historical scenario, much like playing a game of the Chinese defence of Shanghai, or of Warsaw resistance in '44… nothing forces you to add those particular horrors (and if you did you'd find it hard to find an opponent).

Suck it up, or don't play the mission, simple.

But one could argue that the Japanese objective in Shanghai was the capture of the city, the civilian deaths were coincidental. In Bosnia the civilian deaths were the objective.

The Eastern Front by that moral compass would be well off limits then, the eradication of the inhabitants for Lebensraum et al. The Yugoslav Wars may not be to your taste, so don't game it……..I'm interested in the military side of the conflict which was basically for territory and power………with assorted kit and varied standards of training.
I'm not keen on gaming WW1 Western Front………but each to their own, after all it is a pastime not a rehearsal for ethnic cleansing.

GeoffQRF – I'd have to see those numbers broken down into more discrete categories because as it is, those numbers don't really tell us much that's relevant to the point.

For example, civilians in a combat zone will end up dying as collateral damage. In WW2, numbers of Jews and other groups classified as "undesirables" were sent to concentration camps where they died. Both of those groups would fall under your civilian deaths due to military activity or crimes against humanity. But I don't think either of them would be what I would consider to be a major focus of military operations (the thing we game).

In the 1990's the killing of civilians and the mass scale movement of populations (regardless of the cost in human lives) was a major focus to many military operations.

So it's not to say there isn't scope for gaming that period but it's one that has some very key aspects that most would consider in poor taste. Even sticking to just the military part of it, I think most people would only be able to explore a portion of it due to that.

Get off your high horse Chouan. Using your logic in WWII the German invasion of Russia was just a front for industrializing extermination in camps behind the lines. Go play with your German tanks.

Bosnians – Thousands of blokes that will take your money, tell you that they are your friends then shoot you in the back and blames the Croats/Serbs

Croats – Thousands of blokes that will take your money then shoot you in the back and blames the Bosnians/Serbs!

Serbians – Thousands of blokes that will just shoot you.

It was an interesting place, in 94 at various times everyone was fighting everyone else with everyone else (The Maglai finger sometimes becoming a pocket at the whim of the Croats at the base (The Croats in the North always fought against the Serbs) In Mostar the Bosnians "hired" the Serbian Arty to shell the Croats and a Muslim warlord in Sarajevo changed sides because he was not paid enough.

Meanwhile in Zenica the Muhajidin who arrived to help the cause had bust ups with the local Bosnians who despite being muslim like discos, short skirts, alcohol and bacon butties!

The fighting involved mainly infantry with some tanks, as above including M-84 and M36B2, were useds as fire support.

An interesting tour!

Tally Ho!

Yes, the word "military" has a pretty loose definition during that period.

Typical day of ops,noon-wake up,shake off a hangover with slivo.Mid afternoon-arrange for a press op, invite local friends and their children as well,call a mortar strike in and blame your enemy.Dinner time-eat,drink,plan to avenge your fallen civies…go forward rape,pillage and murder indiscriminately.Night-its time for more slivo,rest knowing you did your days work.Maybe tomorrow you wake up mid afternoon,modify schedule accordingly

The helicopter company I worked for had a 1-year contract to fly in Bosnia near the end of that unpleasantness, before all the shooting stopped. We ended up losing an aircraft and the pilot barely survived (minus an eyeball). Overall, it was an awful experience for all the guys directly involved in the project. The impressions I had from my decidedly narrow perspective was that it was a particularly ugly conflict and I've never had an urge to game it since then. In my mind, it just has a sort of "slimy" feel to it, for lack of a better word.

I realize, however, that that is a bit of a paradox. After all, all wars have the same ugly, slimy characteristic, and yet we wargamers manage to play out a battle without dwelling on the ugliness of death camps, the institution of slavery, pogroms, "collateral damage", etcetera. We typically don't concern ourselves with those issues and instead concentrate on the actions of the military forces devoid of ideology. I think a person could do the same with this conflict if they so desired. Say, just concentrate on skirmishes between armed groups, without touching on the terrible things done to the civilians and prisoners. I'm certainly not going to throw any stones from my glass house or else I'll have to get rid of all my 15mm moderns, my beloved RCW armies, my Napoleonics*, and every other painted soldier in my collection.

*Goya, for example, doesn't paint a very genteel picture of Napoleonic troops.

Gaming the Chechen War seems to be quite popular, but that was a very 'slimy' war.

I like the adjective slimy, to describe the darker displays of inhumanity. We could have a slimy rating for conflicts, to act as a rating system for morally aware gamers. The AIW's would get a low slimy rating, but Lebanon a high one, perhaps.

Nick, I was told one of the weapon system the Brits were vary wary about, especially the Warrior crews, was the 57mm S-60, because of its ROF and punch.

"…that it was a particularly ugly conflict "

I think what made the Yugoslav civil wars particularly ugly were that they were fraternal, with peoples who had lived among one another, intermarried and had close relations, suddenly turning against one another. Somehow the hate seems different then.

The Yugoslav policy of national defense by creating a "people in arms" and storing stocks of materiel throughout the country, meant that a village could suddenly become a well armed mob (to an extent not even the U.S. could probably match).

Just come back from Dubrovnik – and the museum there on Mount Srd is interesting albeit perhaps a bit one-sided..

But it was certainly fratricidal.

However when the Croats declared UDI they offered all of their Serbs in the Krajina autonomy. The Serbs rejected this and responded by brutal ethnic cleansing followed up by a programme of destroying Catholic churches, historical monuments etc.

The ethnic cleansing was in time reversed of course….

But the Croats at least did make overtures initially – and 5% of the Croatian population is still Serbian and discrimination (while practised) is illegal.

As for equipment, Dalmatia doesn't lend itself to much except infantry and naval actions though there were some T34/85s invovled down there.

Lot of ad hoc naval units trying to run supplies into Dubrovnik.

Don't worry people

It wasn't my intention to wargame some ethnic cleansing, we are all aware of the nasty side of this conflict

As mentioned by someone earlier I am more interested in the dynamics of the conflict, particularly the different factions and the potential to game scenarios with a UN presence perhaps affecting victory conditions or objectives

F