"Why did musician wear reversed colors?" Topic

I know it was tradition for musicians to have their colors reversed from their regiments. But I haven't been able to find out when the tradition began, and why it started. Can anyone help me? Thanks in advance.

So they could be easily identified on the battlefield. Also it was probably initially ostentation on the part of the colonel who raised the regiment!

So the Colonel can pick him out of the pack in a hurry

In the 17th century some officers, sergeants, and/or pikemen also wore reversed colors – or some variation of reversed colors. There didn't seem to be a consistent standard. Of course, it some cases officers wore completely different uniforms.

Bad form to shoot a non-combatant. Make sure they stand out so they aren't accidentally targetted. No idea where or when it started.

Because musicians typically try to dress in a non-conformist manner. It's just their bag, baby.

Yep. So he can be spotted in a hurry.

So the Colonel could show off in front of the other colonels.

The 'easily spotted' answer is the right one; musicians were often used to transmit orders, so it was handy to be able to spot the musicians out of a crowd. Other members of the regiment might have reverse or different colors for similar reasons. That's not to say that colonels did NOT like to show off! :)

-Will

Yes so they could be identifed in a hurry to transmit orders. (As they were armed they were perfectly legitimate targets.)

Although targetting a specific individuals during this period was usually more an act of hope than expectation – Rifleman Tom Plunkett notwithstanding!

Thanks for the answers, all. I tried searching on both Google and Bing with no luck.

Recognition was also why a trumpeter was mounted on a grey horse.

I didn't know about the gray horse. Thanks.

I thought it dated back to the medieval era of heralds being used to transmit messages between opponents (eg my King requests that you surrender), and it was a long established tradition that they were not to be harmed, hence the different costume, to make it clear who they were.

It was abandoned by the British Army with a regulation issued in September 1811 stating that trumpeters and drummers were to wear the same uniform as the rest of the unit, distinguished only by additional lace. There was also a General Order of 12 October 1811 which commanded that cavalry trumpeters were no longer to be mounted on greys.

Rod

Drummers and trumpeters, along with drum and trumpet majors, were soldiers and were definitely combatants.

B

@ Rod.
Regardless of regulations, one wonders how often a grey was available during campaign.

I'd guess that much like the concept of squadrons being mounted on similar coloured mounts, the grey-trumpeter's horse was more often than not a peacetime thing…..but definitely a wargaming thing as they look cool.

@ Brechtel

I've often wondered if a cavalry trumpeter, encumbered with carrying his instrument & not necessarily having a sword handy, was assigned anyone to protect him in melee.

Do you know if this was so?

They are also better paid…

It was actually the trumpeter's duty to cover the back of his commander, at least in the Grande Armee. I guess that's why they had a strap on the trumpet to sling over the trumpeter's back. ;-)

And the company commander's drummer had to keep up with him on the battlefield lugging his heavy drum along…

B

Even the white horse was not enough to identify your trumpeter. There's a great story from the 7YW of Austrian and Prussian dragoons in a whirling melee on a hot day which covered everyone in dust. At the end an Austrian officer yelled at the nearest trumpeter on a white horse to sound 'Reform'. Imagine his surprise when the Prussian trumpet call rang out!

From all my readings, for much of the 18th C. drummers and trumpeters were -not- considered combatants. As well as transmitting orders, they would be used to initiate parleys when required, and usually sent back when captured with a message about exchanging the remaining prisoners. As such cavalry trumpeters did not carry their fellow troopers' fighting swords, but a smallsword. Similarly, infantry drummers' hangers were simply the mark of the soldier.

Of course this status evolved as the century wore on, at different speed for different armies and for each arm of service, from being assimilated to the colonel's personal domestics (and wearing his livery) to being on the payroll to carrying a "proper" weapon sometime during or after the Napoleonic wars.

Cavalry kettledrummers were a different matter apparently. With their instruments a prized trophy, they were expected to defend them – but then would hardly be left alone to do so.

Trumpeters were defintely combatants during the Napoleonic Wars:

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Of course, he is a Prussian:(.

Jurgen

Musketier, have you got a reference that kettledrums were actually taken

a) in the field, and
b) on the battlefield ?

The Prussian trumpeter pointed out by Jurgen, is the Stabstrompeter (trumpet major) of the Littauisches Dragoner-Regiment in the combat at Möckern a. d. Ehle on 5th April 1813.

Major v. Platen was attacked by the lancer, he shouted "So 'ne Fliege!" ("such a fly" = annoying individual) and hit him. The lancer, however, remained in the saddle and was knocked out of it by a blow with the trumpet:

Some armies didn't have musicians in reversed colors. Some reigements didn't have musicians in reversed colors. I doubt that they found themselves at any disadvantage. The only time a line infantry would notice the coat color of a drummer is when they were running away. It was purely tradition.

French line infantry in the Napoleonic Wars mostly had drummers with green coats. The Imperial Guard had blue.

You can try as you might to find a functional reason for this but I am convinced from all my readings it was pure pride, vanity, and ego on the part not only of the regimental colonel, or the Inhaber, but of the officers and men themselves who set great pride by the snazziness of their color party and their regimental musicians, especially the regimental band. Not only that, but when you get to the Cavalry, it's not the trumpeter who'se the most venerated, it's the Kettledrums and with that, the "Drum Horse" who actually never goes on campaigns or has any of the normal duties, but whose sole purpose is to stand there at the review or slowly trot by and LOOK GOOD!

If you want to get an inkling of this, read "The Rout of the White Hussars" in Kipling's "Plain Tales from the Hills." An argument over the Drum Horse between the colonel and the regiment not only caused a rout, (with the regiment scattered over miles with no enemy around) but almost cost the colonel the regiment!

In my games of the 18th Century a Cavalry regiment has 12 to fifteen figures. The front Rank of the stand (they're all on one big 6" by 4" stand) has two privates, one NCO, one Standard, One Officer, One trumpeter, and one Kettledrummer. The Trumpeters and Kettledrummers are both conversions, often with helmets or huge turbans and orientalish costumes.

Of course I work in Imagi-Nations so it's a bit easier for me.

OSchmidt said:

You can try as you might to find a functional reason for this but I am convinced from all my readings it was pure pride, vanity, and ego on the part not only of the regimental colonel, or the Inhaber, but of the officers and men themselves who set great pride by the snazziness of their color party and their regimental musicians, especially the regimental band. Not only that, but when you get to the Cavalry, it's not the trumpeter who'se the most venerated, it's the Kettledrums and with that, the "Drum Horse" who actually never goes on campaigns or has any of the normal duties, but whose sole purpose is to stand there at the review or slowly trot by and LOOK GOOD!

Oli,

I suspect, like many military traditions, it started with a purpose, which became lost over time, and then just became something which Regiments jealously preserved, until eventually ordered to discontinue it by their governments. There are many examples of this in British Army uniform today.

Rod

I would speculate that the original reason was that officers, sergeants, and musicians were considered the heart of the regiment and received the first real uniforms (1650-1670). The rank and file made due with simple gray or brown clothing, sometimes supplemented with a dash of color (the facings) that complemented the officers main color. Therefore, one could say it was really the rank and file that wore the reversed colors.

It was the 1802 regulations that stipulated that all regiments with dark blue(royal)facings should have the jacket of scarlet. Regiments with black or red facings to wear white jackets with black or red facings respectively. those of other regiments to have the jacket made up of the facing colour with red collar and cuffs. Royal lace and common lace' and lace for the drummers in such a manner as the Colonel sees fit.

So the jacket colour for the body of the drummers jacket was laid down by regulation but the colonel could adorn the jackets with lace to his own taste.

In 1812, all regiments jackets changed to red but those of the Guards and Royal regiments remained scarlet.

Paul :)

Löwenstein Dragoons

In 1758, immediately after its creation, the regiment distinguished itself at Olmütz when, on June 17 under general count St. Ignon near the town of Wisternitz, it fell on 7 squadrons of the Prussian Bayreuth Dragoons Regiment. It captured a pair of silver kettledrums, 8 officers and 257 troopers. For this feat of arms, the regiment received the privilege to carry the captured kettledrums while other Austrian dragoons carried only ordinary drums. Thanks to the glorious behaviour of the regiment in this occasion; its commander, colonel marquis Choiseul de Stainville, was particularly appreciated. He was promoted general in 1759 and field marshal lieutenant (FML) in 1760 and entered into the French service.

from…

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Also:

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French line infantry in the Napoleonic Wars mostly had drummers with green coats.

I believe this was stipulated in the Bardin regulations of 1812, but before that drummers' uniforms were very much at the discretion of the colonel (despite what may have been officially specified). Even after 1812, French colonels had a tendency to bend the regulations when they could afford to and/or get away with it.

The reversed colors concept seems to have been primarily a British concept. In the 1750's the French infantry regiments seemed to have colonel livery for gentlemen regiments, and royal blue coats with crimson stripes overlaid by white chains for Royal regiments – the King's livery. As noted, French drummers of the early Napoleonic years might have been according to the Colonel's preference, or much like the line soldier with perhaps "swallows nests" without stripes.

The 7YW Austrians had mostly gone to white uniforms for the infantry drummers with swallows nests as the main difference from the line soldier. The Prussians seem to have been in dark blue with chevrons on the sleeves for Musketeer drummers, no chevrons for Fusilier drummers.

French Napoleonic line Chasseurs a cheval and Hussars DO seem to have had reversed colors for the trumpeters, as did most of the dragoons. Occasional sky blue trumpeter coat faced yellow as for the 15th – a rose faced dragoon regiment.

For charging French Napoleonic cavalry, I prefer to have the trumpeter with slung trumpet, and with sabre advanced forward "at the point," charging with the rest of the regiment. Don't want him knocking out his teeth trying to sound the charge!

GdeP

What about bagpipes? I don't think they would fit the mode.

There is a difference I think between the Regimental Band and the drummers and fifers.

The latter were soldiers, combatants and carried weapons. A sword usually, in British units there should be one drummer per company and 2 fifers per battalion. These were subject to uniform regulations. How or why reversed colours was a trend I don't know, I suspect any military or logical reason was long since redundant and it was mainly purely for flash and splendour.

The regimental bands were civilian musicians hired for their musical ability, they were not strictly combatants and could be uniformed how the units CO liked.

What about bagpipes? I don't think they would fit the mode.

Those were banned as inhumane, didn't you hear?

I think pipers replaced fifers in highland units. And they would wear redcoats. I think only drummers wore the fancy reversed coats.
English, lowland and Irish units might have unofficial pipers, if privately hired they'd be with the band, if the piper was just a soldier he'd be in his normal uniform.

The 24th had a "Scotch Piper" (killed in action) purely because the colonel liked bagpipes.

I don't think that in the horse and musket period a drummers jacket colo

r would entitle him to any special protection. The drummers and fifers were attached to specific companies and advanced and retreated and stood in position with the rest of the men, and when the opposition was shooting they were pointing their weapon in the general direction of the enemy.
I don't think there was anything in the manual of arms that said "Fire! Being careful not to hit the drummers!"
The drummers were a vital part of keeping the battalion together, with drum calls, if thats the right word, for "advance, halt, fire" etc. These calls carried much better than a voice.

Also I think for marksmen they were quite high up the ladder in targets stakes. Officers first, drummers/ buglers, sergeants all priority targets.

I am at one with musketier, and wood wind were very much non combatant

who were these "marksmen" Edwulf?

Skirmishers but im thinking riflemen or jäger in particular. I'm speaking in a Napoleonic context not earlier.

And the reason for them being so attired is so that they can be easily recognised by the command. It also made them easily recognised by the enemy who would do the obvious, thus it was all change for 1812. It still gave time for the 5th (Northumberland) to change (after being granted permission) their drummers gosling green, to a white jacket in 1811.

Pipers were employed (privately) by non Scottish regiments too, though this wasn't universal and some of the pipers would used the foot variety or small pipes out of combat

What people forget is that pipes were a very farmiliar sound and commonly used all over the British isles at that time so It wouldn't be surprising for pipers to be employed by say, a non Scottish commander of an English regiment

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Bandsmen were used in caring for the wounded (still do today) but were on rare occasions required to fight. Drummers were combatants and were also employed for punishment duty

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Paul :)

At first the musicians, drummers and trumpeters, were non-combatants enjoying a form of immunity when carrying messages to the enemy, as heirs of the medieval heralds; and they generally wore the livery of the unit owner, captain of an independent company or colonel of a regiment. In France when the uniform was regulated under Louis XIV this privilege was progressively restricted to the Queen and the Princes of the Blood (Condé, Conti…), military 'signalers' wearing the King's livery. I suspect the British army used reversed coats to emphasize it was NOT the 'Royal Army'. Reversed coats become almost the 'default value' when liveries were abolished during the revolutionary times, colonels wishing to keep their musicians with a distinctive appearance for practical and aesthetic reasons. Reversed coats were the most obvious alternative, with some precedents for pikemen and officers (this a 'Germanic' practice, I believe). But at least in France colonels tended to ignore regulations – Bonaparte himself was initially fond of sky blue and dressed the trumpeters of his Guides in this color, which was kept for the musicians of the Old and Medium Guards mounted units (and, oddly, the sailors of the Guard).

"Bonaparte himself was initially fond of sky blue and dressed the trumpeters of his Guides in this color, which was kept for the musicians of the Old and Medium Guards mounted units (and, oddly, the sailors of the Guard)."

Ah ha! I have often wondered where the sky blue came from.

Hmmm. Some of these posts have me scratching my head.

1. Musicians trasmitted orders. Can anyone provide a period account of this happening, as I have never read of ths in either the F&I or AWI war. Maybe cavalry, but certainly not a fifer or drummer – at least that I have ever read about.

2. Musicians would be targeted. Really? Can anyone provide documentation of this happening, as again, I've never read that. To what purpose, unless they were carrying a musket?

In fact, in Wolfe's Instructions to Young Officers, he suggests the musicians be dismissed from the ranks to help with the wounded. Further, I think it was in Spring's book that says musicians often carried muskets instead of playing an intrument (which is often over-rated in trasmitting orders – as they really couldn't do on a noisy battlefield anyway).

I've read where the music was massed for the British grenadier attack at Brandywine, at least early in the attack – but more for keeping up spirits than anything else, and prior to shooting.

I will be curious though if anyone has documentation of some of the above ascertions.

The question about where/when did reverse colors become fashion is a good one. Not sure I have ever read that answer.

2. Musicians would be targeted. Really? Can anyone provide documentation of this happening, as again, I've never read that. To what purpose, unless they were carrying a musket?

I think you have the balance of proof the wrong away around.

Are you are seriously suggesting that; in the heat of battle, with Officers and NCOs straining every nerve and sinew to keep their units cohesive and effective, ordering volleys with inaccurate smoothbore muzzle loading flintlocks in choking thick blank smoke at 100 paces; were expected to somehow avoid hitting Drummers, who were uniformed and carrying weapons?

If so, may I respectfully submit it is you who should substantiate this notion…

I'm assuming, by the way, that you've never served?

1. Musicians trasmitted orders. Can anyone provide a period account of this happening, as I have never read of ths in either the F&I or AWI war. Maybe cavalry, but certainly not a fifer or drummer – at least that I have ever read about.

With respect to Drummers and Bugles giving commands, a quick bit of googling will of course list the various orders transmitted by Drum Beats and Bugle Calls, including, but not limited to; Advance, Retire, To Arms, Double etc:

In the 18th and 19th centuries, military musicians ("field musics") provided a means of passing commands to Marines in battle. The sound of various drum beats and bugle calls that could be heard over the noise of the battlefield signaled Marines to attack the enemy or retreat.

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And are you not familiar with the Boogy Woogy Bugle Boy from Company B who would sound the Reveille?

(You are however quite right that Bandsmen were expected to aid the wounded. As has been alluded to above, its important to differentiate between Regimental Bandsmen, and Company Drummers, who were an intergral,and vital part of the combat command.)

French musicians wearing the "livrée du roi" were easily distinguished from other soldiers – and a pain to paint on miniatures, and very expensive to buy for re-enactors clothing.

Musicians trasmitted orders. Can anyone provide a period account of this happening, as I have never read of ths in either the F&I or AWI war. Maybe cavalry, but certainly not a fifer or drummer – at least that I have ever read about.

searchwarp.com/swa25767.htm

"Historically, the drum was used to convey orders during a battle, so the corps of drums was a fully integrated feature of an infantry battalion. Later on, when the bugle was adopted to convey orders, drummers were given bugles, but also maintained their drums and flutes."

link

"…drummers were also targeted directly due to their capacity for signaling orders."

link

"The drums in the late 18th century field music were of utmost importance, they signaled most all aspects of daily life for the British soldier; they would beat calls, the camp duty, provide cadence while on the march, and even beat to coordinate loading and firing. Drummers were also used for duties such as lashing court-martialed soldiers ("Taking them to the halberds"), and drumming hooligans out of the service."

42ndrhr.org/drums.php

" The Drummers Call summoned drummers to the head of the colours or to the place where it was being beaten.
Field Calls still included;The Preparative ‘a signal to make ready for firing'.The Chammade ‘a signal to desire a parley with the enemy'.There were also several other beats in different corps for particular signals, he said, such as The Long Roll for turning out the Regiment in camp; and doubling The Troop to break from grand to sub-divisions.
Barty-King Hugh, THE DRUM, Horse Guards, Whitehall, London, 1988 (P 46-47)"

"Fifes and drums were used to signal troops. The fife is a very high pitched, shrill instrument that can easily be heard across the battlefield. The drum can also be easily heard. A company of about 100 men would have one or two fifers and one or two drummers. When companies banded to form a regiment, the musicians were also banded. Besides signaling on the battlefield, the general would usually have a drummer close by for emergency calls and musicians signaled various duties within the camp. Musicians, when marching, were also used to lighten the spirits of troops."

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Sorry guys, WIKI references aren't going to make it in this discussion.

I would refer you to:

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or…

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I'm sorry to say that these well recognized experts debunk the whole music on the battlefield myth. But if you don't believe me, or them, how about General James Wolfe himself?

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PS – I am not suggesting drums/music didn't have a role, but it is well documented they did not actually function on the battlefield like the peace time training suggests. Of course, Sparker, as former military, you'd be the first to recognize the difference between peace time training and what actually works in combat.

I love music. I was a drummer. Just saying. :-)

'I'm sorry to say that these well recognized experts debunk the whole music on the battlefield myth. But if you don't believe me, or them, how about General James Wolfe himself?'

Do you have either pages or quotations from the books, or even paraphrase what was written to further the discussion?

And you do notice that all three of these volumes only cover the British army and no one else, and two of them predate the Napoleonic period and the third one only goes to 1795?

French drummers and trumpeters went into the fire with their units and drum majors from time to time actually led infantry assaults.

B