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"The Hive Kickstarter has two weeks left!" Topic


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2,507 hits since 9 Oct 2013
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tsofian Sponsoring Member of TMP10 Oct 2013 3:04 p.m. PST

Rosa has posted a lot more information about this project, in the form of pictures.

This will be the most extensive range of arthropods ever produced, and will be in both 15mm and 25/28mm (or 10 and 6 mm for those who want REALLY BIG bugs)

Each of the various bugs comes in several forms.

How many types of bugs can you use? Rosa has THEM! and has THEM! in large numbers

And to fight them Rosa has steamtanks

Please take a look at our Kickstarter and if you have been sitting on the fence jump in.

Ed the Two Hour Wargames guy10 Oct 2013 3:09 p.m. PST
tsofian Sponsoring Member of TMP10 Oct 2013 3:20 p.m. PST

Thanks Ed!

Darned I knew I forgot something!

Please, even if you can't sponsor us right now help spread the word. This is cutting edge technology for miniatures gaming. The 3D printers Richard is looking at buying will do things that were impossible three years ago, and even eighhteen months before now. Maybe we are over reaching and what we are trying won't work (but we have done enough testing to be pretty confident it will). But maybe Rosa is onto something here and supporting it will move the hobby in a new and exciting direction.

Just as pdfs and print on demand has lowered the entry level for game developers so will 3D printers make more figures and more kinds of figures. It will supplement traditional methods.

Terry

Privateer4hire Inactive Member10 Oct 2013 5:39 p.m. PST

I just posted the link over on DakkaDakka in News and Rumors. Hope you pass your goal!

Guthroth10 Oct 2013 10:23 p.m. PST

I am truly surprised that this project hasn't picked up more support.

15mm VSF tanks and bugs ? What more could a gamer want ?

tsofian Sponsoring Member of TMP11 Oct 2013 2:18 a.m. PST

And 25/28 mm as well!

GypsyComet11 Oct 2013 7:25 a.m. PST

In for a spin.

DyeHard11 Oct 2013 7:33 a.m. PST

I think I am the largest pledge at $350 USD, but it just not getting any traction.

I think the goal is too high and the effort too diffuse. I think a smaller more focused KickStarter would have done better. It is a strange mix to make a KS really catch fire.

The art is all so very good, I would have think more people would be attracted to it. The tanks alone would make a great KS project.

Black Hat Miniatures11 Oct 2013 8:04 a.m. PST

I think that a number of people are still unconvinced that 3d printing can be used for production rather than using normal casting methods. I think it will be too slow for any type of volume.

Mike

Personal logo chicklewis Supporting Member of TMP11 Oct 2013 8:29 a.m. PST

Bugs are GORGEOUS, Terry. I just had to pledge at $300. USD Cannot wait to see them 'in the plastic'.

CorSecEng Inactive Member11 Oct 2013 9:20 a.m. PST

The pledge levels don't make any sense. Whats a drone? Media? Minor? A clear pictorial view of what your getting would help. I'd be interested in them for some scifi bugs but I have no clue what I'm getting and there are no close up shots of the final production models that will give me the warm and fuzzy feeling that I'm not getting a miniature full of scan lines. Of course I'm not impressed with shapeways ultra fine so not sure these will be any better without evidence to the contrary.

Chef Lackey Rich Fezian Inactive Member11 Oct 2013 10:29 a.m. PST

Whats a drone? Media? Minor?

Even a quick look at the KS page answers all of those. The drones are the bug "unit leader" figs, the centauroid thing in the lower center of the image at the top of the page and at the right of every single unit illustration. Media just means the bug is a "medium sized" example of whatever subtype (eg soldier, killer) it is, while "minor" is small (and "major" is large while "super-major" is huge). There are clear photos of various types and sizes with 28mm and 15mm metal figs for a decent idea of relative sizes.

As for photos, they could really use some painted samples, and the sooner the better. The closeups look fine to me, but without paint it's hard to be sure how much stepping is present.

The concern about production speed is more of a concern, and not one that's been answered satisfactorily.

tsofian Sponsoring Member of TMP11 Oct 2013 12:55 p.m. PST

Here are what the bug concepts looks like

link

Here is a representation of the minor, media, major and super major

link

and here is how units shape up

link although the number of figures and drones vary by how large the individual bugs are

tsofian Sponsoring Member of TMP11 Oct 2013 2:00 p.m. PST

The issues of production times and what they look like painted are both good ones.

Until the machines are in place, arrayed and running there is no way to be certain what the production cycles will be in reality. Richard has looked at print times given to him by the various manufacturers but until the devices are set up it is all acedemic. Richard feels he can run these machines and make this work. If he is right the gaming world will see a huge new resource in terms of miniatures production-anything with a 3D file can be produced in any scale so long as the parts fit on the printing stage.

Here is deal about time-If Richard is right and everything works all is fine and dandy-If, on the other hand he is incorrect and it takes longer to print up your miniatures from the Kickstater you will still get your miniatures (although worst case they will be delayed) and Rosa has to look to newer tech for post Kickstarter production. If you really want to throw a monkey wrench in all this order a zillion miniatures and have your friends do the same; and make Richard and his Rosa Minaitures crew sweat like pigs as they try and get a gazillion miniatures printed in time to get them out for all the supporters. This will really test his system and see if he can put his minis where his money is!

Terry

MrAverage Inactive Member11 Oct 2013 2:45 p.m. PST

I work with a high-res 3d printer pretty much every day, prototyping hardware and building architectural models, and the turnaround time is long. It is not a production machine, unless you can run many machines in parallel. And what I use is a latest-generation linear-deposition printer, not an obsolete one. I love the idea, but I think the implementation is problematic at best. The overhead alone is much higher than I think he expects. And I'm just convinced that the per-gram materials cost of printed masters versus cast resin or slush metals is just not going to be cost effective. From my experience with rapid prototyping machines and the process in general, I really don't believe that this will work, however cool an idea it is.

--M

tsofian Sponsoring Member of TMP11 Oct 2013 3:20 p.m. PST

I'm surprised about the material costs. I'm not sure what "slush" metals are but I was paying well over 10.00 a pound for anything lead free that was worth using. Richard is looking at running multiple machines in parallel.

Terry

MrAverage Inactive Member11 Oct 2013 5:43 p.m. PST

Slush metals are any alloy that has a low melting point and is relatively cheap. It's as opposed to finish metals like brass or nickel, flashing metals like copper, tin and zinc, and precious metals like gold and silver.

As for cost comparisons, last time I checked, lin-dep resins ran about $0.20 USD-$0.30 per gram, in bulk. The support material, which holds the parts in place during the build, is about half that. But if he made the models solid, at $0.20 USD per gram that's over $90 USD/lb. More, counting support and build material. Of course, it's not a weight-for-weight comparison, because the same volume of resin will be less dense than the same volume of metal. So maybe it's an open question how the two would relate costwise. Still, my general impression is that, though it's good for making what can't be made quickly or easily, i.e., a high-definition prototype, printing production pieces that way is going to be costly.

I really don't mean to be a downer, I'm just saying that using 3D printers for production like this is not yet mature technology, and this idea may be ahead of its time, in a practical sense.

--M

tsofian Sponsoring Member of TMP11 Oct 2013 5:57 p.m. PST

First
A pound of resin has a density a fraction of even a light alloy so a direct mass comparison is faulty.

Arun's objects may appear shape ways store can print up cannons in 15 mm that are very nice and price out near what production metal guns cost and that is with all the shape ways price issues

Chef Lackey Rich Fezian Inactive Member12 Oct 2013 4:52 p.m. PST

It's going to be a shame if these models don't make it into production in some format or another.

Richard D Inactive Member12 Oct 2013 6:05 p.m. PST

Mr Average,

I would have agreed a year ago, but your are behind the tech curve. We will be using new machines that just came into production. The cost of material is around 0.09 to 0.15 USD per ml. A "Minor Soldier Bug" are small creature takes 0.08ml at 15mm and 0.29ml at 25mm, it will grow up to be a Super Major which takes 1.67ml at 15mm and 5.17ml at 25mm. The machine I intend to use for the "bugs" is a light cured resin that builds the entire bed at one time. In short I will be building 12 to 100 bugs per machine each build cycle. And since the machines cost only 3000 USD I can afford to run several of them at a time.

We are launching a number of lines this year. Our goal is to serve the specialty market. Rosa Miniatures and Games may not produce as many model as Games Workshop, but ours will be of the highest quality and reasonably priced.

By the End of the year we will be launching our second line: Accessories for RC Airplanes; our products in that line are being received enthusiastically at "Fly Ins". We are selling 1/4 scale Spandau, Vickers and Lewis guns that are clearly superior to any product currently on the market for 15-25 USD.

I really hate the "experts" that keep telling us that we do not know what we are doing. I have addressed this question more than a dozen times.


Richard Delorme

MrAverage Inactive Member12 Oct 2013 7:18 p.m. PST

Hey, easy, man, I'm just expressing my own doubts, based on my own experiences with the technology, which is pretty current, actually. But believe me, I'd be thrilled to be proven wrong about this, because it would open the field wide for a lot of different production schemes. If you guys can pull it off, you'll be at the very cutting edge, and I say God bless it. If you're confident in your methods, forge ahead, for sure!

And let me second Rich on the quality of your 3D models, as well – even if you ended up with traditional casts, they'd still be great looking.

--M

Richard D Inactive Member13 Oct 2013 12:49 p.m. PST

I just posted some new pics of "tanks" / landships on the Kickstarter. These vehicles were printed in 15mm scale using the B9 Creator.

Richard

Personal logo Fergal Sponsoring Member of TMP14 Oct 2013 2:59 p.m. PST

Hi Richard,

I'm a fellow kickstarter and a 3D printing enthusiast as well as a Form1 owner.

I would say that the onus is on you as the project creator to convince folks that your project will be successful rather than the job of folks reading these posts to just believe it. If you have answered the same question a dozen times, it's most likely a common question and it should be addressed with patience and tact. Type up a response and save it waiting for the question to pop up the next time. that way when it does, you can quickly answer it an add the personal touches needed.

As a Form1 owner, I also have reservations about using the machine for mass production. I love it and it has great resolution, a true marvel of technology at the least.

I wish you good luck and if you run this kickstarter again for any reason, perhaps a more modest goal would help you harness the enthusiasm of the those who already believe in the tech and you wouldn't spend the extra effort to convince folks to reach such a huge goal. A nice quick successful project will do more good than anything else you could do.

Good luck.

TheRatGod Inactive Member14 Oct 2013 3:04 p.m. PST

Being rude in your responses when asking for our money to kickstart you is awful business since.

Richard D Inactive Member16 Oct 2013 3:19 p.m. PST

Sorry for snapping at Mr. Average, but I have had some competitors flaming me for weeks of Facebook and other web sites. I have been openly accused of some rather rotten things with out cause. I am getting a little over sensitive.

I have some concerns about some of the machines, mostly in readability more that cost. I added three months to the production delivery in order to cover unforeseen problems, which do seem to crop up. I am willing to take a low profit margin in order to get the experience. I have been running extensive test and have access to a top notch University laboratory which has offered to assist as needed.

As for the Form1 our test show that it is really good for at making our Tanks and fairly good at making the bugs. The B9 Creator is great at making bugs, but has trouble with the hollow tanks. So it looks like we are going to need two machines.

I am also interested in some machines under development. One machine the botobject claims to print at 25 micron resolution and in full color using PLA plastic. But the company does not answer email or answers it phones. I would love to be able to print at 50 micron resolution with PLA it would solve a lot of issues.

Richard

Guthroth18 Oct 2013 10:13 p.m. PST

Only a week to go on this and it looks like it won't make it which is a great shame.

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