"Question Regarding WWII Brit Paratrooper Warrant Officers" Topic

All,

First, let me start by giving you my starting point regarding Warrant Officers in the US military (or at least the USMC).

Warrant Officers are NCOs chosen to become officers based on their technical expertise. They serve as team/section/detachment leaders of that occupational specialty (NBC, Admin, Infantry weapons employment, Intelligence, etc…) and on battalion and higher staffs to advise the commander on best employment of those specialist troops (the Army also uses them as helicopter pilots). As such they can be "Officers in Charge" of the various teams/sections/dets, but not "Commanding Officers" at Company level and higher (though there was a "Limited Duty Officer program that converted CWO3s to Captains, removing a lot, but not all, restrictions on advancement/command). I have seen them used administratively as Platoon Commanders, that is, platoons as administrative groupings for specialist troops that never operated as a platoon, but at smaller levels (team/det/section) attached out at battalion level or higher. Warrant Officers are selected at the Service HQ level, i.e., all troops in the occupational field that want to be a Warrant Officer submit a 'package' that goes all the way to HQ Marine Corps, where the determination is made on how many to appoint and who gets selected for those appointments. US Warrant Officers are graded WO1 then CWO2 to CWO5, with the grades mandating the billet. For example, a WO1 and CWO2 might be Det OICs, CWO3 might be on a Battalion Staff, CWO4 Regimental Staff, CWO5 Corps/Service Staff (these are only approximations for purposes of my example, and in the USMC there is usually the "one up, one down" rule, meaning the billet is for a CWO3 but can be filled in a pinch by a CWO2 or CWO4.

I just throw that out there so that, when answering, you have some idea of my starting point, and why I may be confused if the Brit concept is much different from the USMC one.

I know (think I know?) Brit WWII paratroop units had Warrant Officers. My questions are:

-How is one 'made,' i.e., is it an NCO chosen because of his technical expertise, or is there some other criteria?

-Regarding how they are made, at what level is the decision made? I doubt a Platoon Commander could do it, and probably not at Company level either, so is it Battalion, Regiment, Division, higher?

-What were these paratrooper Warrant Officers used for? Would they be a Plt Cmdr, a Company Cdr, in charge of Weapons sections, etc…? A couple years ago someone told me there were Brit paratrooper Warrant Officers used in the same manner US forces use Sergeants Major (for us, senior enlisted advisor to the commander at battalion level and higher, Command Sgt Maj for US Army). That doesn't make any sense to me, and I know I've heard of Brit Regimental Sgt Maj, but hey, someone did tell me that once…

-Regarding their use (billets), what would be the optimal rank for those billets. I don't know how the Brits use them, so my example is really going to be a shot in the dark. Let's say a Brit parachute infantry company has one Warrant Officer in each Platoon HQ that is a WO1, and a Warrant Officer in the Company HQ that is a CWO3. If that's the case, I could make an assumption that I could have either WO1s or CWO2s at the platoon level, but once he's promoted to CWO3 he needs to move up to Company HQ or, if that billet is currently filled, he'd need to be transferred out of the company to another unit. Similarly, we could have a CWO3 or CWO4 at the Company HQ, but once he's promoted to CWO5 he needs to transfer to CWO5 billet at battalion level or higher. Please understand this is just an example to help you understand my question, and this is how we do it in the US military.

The reason for asking all this is that, at some point, I'd like to run a Red Devils campaign at Company level, though possibly even at Battalion level, that tracks individual men (sort of like I'm doing with my 82nd Airborne platoon, if you've seen any of my batreps here). Of course I wouldn't try to track every single man in a company or battalion, but I need to know if my company/battalion would have any Warrant Officers in it, what their role was, and how to 'make' new ones if they become casualties/get promoted out of their billet.

Thanks in advance for any help you may provide. And I hope I don't sound too insane…

V/R,
Jack

A Warrant Officer, or W.O., is a senior nco. It is the rank above sergeant then staff sergeant then W.O.

In an infantry company there would normally be one, whose job would include being the company sergeant major, or CSM. I think in the US you call them command sergeant major.

They are picked from amongst the senior nco's by the battalion commander getting his advice from the regimental sergeant major or RSM. The RSM is also a W.O. 11. (warrant officer second class, above the warrant officers)

Normally it is not the technical ability that gets them there, but long service, knowledge, experience and drive. Very comparable to the american command sergeant majors.

In the chain of command, there would be the infantry company commander, a company 2ic who would normally be left out of battle in to avoid losing the next up at the same time, the 2ic would also look after administrative things too. Next in line would be the individual platoon officers.

Should all of the above be lost the CSM would take over.
Normally it was rare to get to this point but it did happen once or twice. There is a famous battle in Burma at Nunshingham where a tank squadron (company) and the indian infantry company both lost all their officers. The infantry CSM and the tank SSM got together and carried on and won the fight.

The CSM can be given special jobs and responsibiltiies but is normally found pretty close to his company commander. A new one would be appointed by the Battalion commander on the advise of his RSM, usually from amongst the senior ncos from the company, odd time not.

A warrant officer is a funny rank in the US. A young one is usually given the rank because of his technical merit as no one else will take him seriously. Hence 19 year old helicopter pilots. The old ones are made warrant officers because it is feared what would happen if they left them in commmand sergeant major slots for too long. Strange way to make a middle ground.

Hope that helps.

troopwo is right that the British concept differs from the US one.

However, one would not normally describe a WO as a "senior NCO"; SNCOs are normally considered to be sergeants, staff or colour sergeants, and I believe in WW2 lance-sergeants had the privilege of using the sergeants' mess, although their substantive rank was only corporal, a JNCO.

A Warrant Officer is so called because he holds the Queen's Warrant, which, while it isn't the same as the Queen's Commission, is a good deal grander than nothing.

An RSM would normally be a WO1, and a CSM (or SSM or BSM) would be a WO2. For a while at the start of WW2 the British Army experimented with WO3s to hold the appointment of PSM (Platoon Sergeant-Major) in command of a platoon, to make up for the lack of subalterns, but the idea did not last long.

Note that WO1 and WO2 are ranks, whereas RSM, CSM and so on are appointments (as is lance-sergeant). The RSM is, essentially, the senior soldier in the battalion. If the WO1 holding the appointment is incapacitated, the next man will take over. When I was at Exeter University in the late 70s, one of our University Porters had been RSM of a battalion of the Devons in the Battle of the Reichswald. His substantive rank at the time was Corporal; every man senior to him had been knocked out, so he got the job of RSM.

Some WOs go on to be late-entry officers, being promoted directly to Captain or Major to to work as staff officers in areas requiring their substantial expertise. I happily recall the BGLogO of 1 PWRR Battle Group on a training exercise I observed still hand-writing the BG logistics order, when all the other staff officers were doing them on word-processors. However, one felt that the logistics were in good hands; the man probably had more experience of how the Army really works than all the other SOs put together.

All the best,

John.

For further material, I would like to recommend taking a look at these WWII British infantry battalion TOEs:

link

Warrant officers are listed as ranks for company sergeant majors (WO I), regimental sergeant major (WO II) and regimental quartermaster sergeant (WO I).

TroopWO,

Fantastic!!! Thanks so much for the timely and very informational response, I believe that covers all my bases.

And so it seems my buddy was right; WOs are used as what we would call Sgt Maj. That's very interesting that Sergeant Major (whether Company or Regimental) is a title, not a rank.

The one thing I would point out (if you're interested): as it's at company level, it sounds like your CSM is equivalent to our First Sergeant (E-8). For us, Sgt Maj is E-9 and is at battalion and higher.

This does bring up one final question (for now at least): you mentioned Sgt Maj's at company and regimental level; is there a Sgt Maj at battalion level also?

You're right, WO is a funny rank in the US military, and it always seems a bit confusing. You're definitely right about the young guy helo pilots, but, in my experience, most of the WOs come from the 'middle' ranks. Most WOs get selected as Sergeants (E-5) and Staff Sergeants (E-6). Usually by the time you're a Gunny (E-7, USMC) or Sergeant First Class (E-7, USA) you're on the career track to stay enlisted.

Thanks again, I greatly appreciate it.

*Just saw Greifbringer's response: thanks, I'll take a look.

*Just saw John D Salt's response: thank you as well. Regarding the commission, in the US WO1s are not commissioned officers, they are appointees, but upon reaching Chief Warrant Officer 2 (CWO2) they receive their commission.

*Cool anecdote, Cerdic. Same thing holds for our Sgt Maj's!

This does bring up another question though… John mentions that, due to casualties, a Corporal was filling the 'substantive rank' (I think what we would refer to as the 'billet') of Sergeant Major. How was the Brit military (and particularly the paras) about battlefield promotion? In the US military it was pretty common in terms of, the Sergeant just got hit, now you're the Sergeant, meaning not only was he filling the billet of squad leader, but that he was actually promoted (meritoriously) to the rank of Sergeant.

V/R,
Jack

To give an idea of how the RSM of a battalion is viewed….

I heard a bloke being interviewed on the radio and he was saying his father was an RSM in the guards. When he was a small kid he was fascinated by his father's hat and how low the peak was angled. He asked his father one day how he could see where he was going when wearing his hat.

His father's reply: "Son, I am a Regimental Sergeant Major in Her Majesty's Guards. I don't need to see where I am going, even buildings get out of MY way!"

This does bring up one final question (for now at least): you mentioned Sgt Maj's at company and regimental level; is there a Sgt Maj at battalion level also?

It is worth keeping in mind that in British army there were no infantry regiments in field in WWII. Instead, regiment was administrative organisation that recruited, trained and organised men into infantry battalions. These battalions would be then organised into infantry brigades, which would be equivalent to other nations infantry regiments.

Some other arms, like armour and artillery, had what was called field regiments, but these were actually equivalent to armour and artillery battalions of other armies.

Cedric, so true – my grandfather was a RSM fighting in Burma during WW2 and my most striking memory of him was the way he walked down the street with me as a small lad alongside him – he was bolt upright and looked like he was on the parade ground and not the local high street.

Greifbringer,

Sorry man, but I'm still not clear if there's a battalion Sgt Maj in infantry battalions or not. Also, if the regiment is an 'administrative' grouping and the brigade is the 'fighting' grouping, does the brigade have a Sgt Maj?

Thanks for pointing that out, that's eye-opening. You'll probably find this hilarious, but I think I thought the Brit system was set up like much older times, which (from my limited understanding and is possibly wrong also) had battalions filling regiments and regiments filling brigades, so to speak.

As you probably know, our system is that regiments are 'homogenous' and brigades are 'mixed.' I.e., you can have an arty regiment, or a tank regiment, or an infantry regiment, but when you mix two infantry battalions with a tank battalion (or vice versa) you get a brigade.

Thanks.

V/R,
Jack

but I'm still not clear if there's a battalion Sgt Maj in infantry battalions or not.

There is no battalion sergeant major.

However, every infantry battalion has a regimental sergeant major in battalion headquarters, and regimental quartermaster sergeant in battalion headquarter company administrative platoon.

As for the contents of brigade HQ, I have no idea at the moment (other than there being a brigadier in command).

Greifbringer,

I'm sure you're doing your best to explain this to a simpleton like me, but this had me rolling:

"There is no battalion sergeant major. However, every infantry battalion has a regimental sergeant major in battalion headquarters…"

I don't know if you're familiar with it, but it sounds like a rendition of "Who's on First?"

So, there's no regiment in the field, but there is a regimental Sergeant Major, but he's in the battalion, but he's not a battalion Sergeant Major.

All joking aside (and thank you for your patience and help), I think I've got it:

Each battalion has a sergeant major, and his title is Regimental Sergeant Major, and he is a Warrant Officer II.

Each battalion also has a Regimental Quartermaster Sergeant that is a Warrant Officer I.

Unknown as to whether there is a sergeant major in the brigade headquarters element, but if there was he would be titled Regimental Sergeant Major and his rank would be Warrant Officer II.

Thanks again.

V/R,
Jack

So, there's no regiment in the field, but there is a regimental Sergeant Major, but he's in the battalion, but he's not a battalion Sergeant Major.

Something like that for the infantry.

However, once you get beyond that, things change again. For example, in a Royal Artillery field regiment, regimental serjeant major and regimental quartermaster serjeant major are to be found somewhere around field regiment HQ. And then there is a battery serjeant major to be found in battery HQ and troop serjeant major to be found in troop HQ.

That said, Royal Artillery troop of 4 guns was pretty much equivalent to what in many other armies artillery branches would have been called a battery, while Royal Artillery field regiment, consisting of three batteries, is similar to what in many other armies would have been called artillery battalion (though having twice as many guns).

"I don't know if you're familiar with it, but it sounds like a rendition of "Who's on First?" "

Not sure, but I believe What's on second, and I Don't Know's on third…

Just to continue the confusion, Bde HQ included a CSM (WO) and a CQMS (Staff-serjeant), but there was no HQ Coy. There were also WOs from the RAOC and REME.

GB has already explained most things, just to note that for the infantry arm while the Bn was the tactical unit Bns could refer to themselves as 'the Regiment'. Hence an RSM and RQMS in a Bn HQ, and a Regtl Aid Post run by the Bn MO. There's probably a T-shirt along the lines of 'it's a British thing' required.

Gary

Just to add to the confusion my grandfather was a WO1 in the Pay Corps but he was not an RSM because they were not a regiment!

Hrmphh!!! But who's on first?!

Thanks guys, I think I've got it, and all I really need to worry about is Company/Battalion level for the Brit paras.

-Line Company's have a WOI as the Company Sergeant Major (equivalent to our Company First Sergeant).

-Infantry Battalions have a WOII as the Regimental Sergeant Major (equivalent to our Battalion Sergeant Major).

And the battalion aid station (as we call it) is called the Regimental Aid Post??? You guys are killing me! ;)

V/R,
Jack

Yes theres a twin track approach at both the Company / Squadron level and the Regiment/Battalion level

(Bn = Infantry unit, Regiment = Cav(Armour) unit)

CSM is the 'Executive' or command WO, the CQMS is the 'Technical' WO (Company Quarter Master Sgt Major) at the Coy/Sqdn level.(Both Warrant Officer Second Class)(WO2)

RSM is similarly the 'Executive' WO, the RQMS is the 'Technical' WO at Bn/Regt level.(Both Warrant Officer First Class)(WO1)

However, with the technical arms, as well as these two branches, you also introduce a specialist branch – Artificer Sgt Major, but this only at the WO2 level.

And none of these esteemed ladies or gentlemen hold the 'Queen's Warrant', they hold a Royal Warrant signed by the Secretary of State for Defence. Completely different! :-)

Whereas the 'Queen's Royal Commission' is signed by the Sovereign…

I know this cos I has one hanging on my wall, signed by Her Majesty Queen Elizabeth the Second!

Other way round, RSM is a WOI, CSM a WOII, as is an RQMS. If you were looking at early war, you'd also have a WOIII to contend with. They were Platoon Serjeant-majors (or Troop) and commanded instead of a commissioned officer, but the rank was gone by 1941.

Gary

And, if that wasn't complicated enough, a WOI is referred to as Mr (or Mrs, Miss or Ms as appropriate) by officers. A WOII is referred to by his or her appointment, for example "Sarn't Major", by the officers. Both are called Sir or Ma'am by other ranks – and woe betide them if they don't!

Cheers,

Jon (like Sparker, also "Trusty and Well Beloved" by Her Majesty)

Jack – if you have understood all this, then I think you are ready to ask about cricket (its just like baseball….)

Just Jack -- let me explain exactly what the term "regiment" means in British Army usage.

It might be best if you're sitting down, and not trying to drink anything while you read this.

"Regiment" in the British Army might mean one of three different things.

In the first place, it might be a battalion-sized unit (APP-6 size indicator II) in the Household Cavalry, Royal Armoured Corps, Royal Artillery, Corps of Royal Engineers, Royal Corps of Signals, Royal Logistic Corps, or of their precursor organisations, including defunct ones such as the Reconaissance Corps (although Recce Corps and R Tanks in the early part of the war used infantry nomenclature, as did RE units in infantry divisions, and so called battalion-sized units "battalions").

In the second place, a regiment is a traditional family of several battalions of infantry. Some regiments, especially these days, have only a single battalion, and even in multi-battalion regiments, a single battalion might sometimes be referred to informally as a regiment. Unlike other armies, battalions in the British Army are commanded by lieutenant-colonels, rather than majors.

In the third place, the Royal Regiment of Artillery is the entire artillery arm of service. Other combat support or service support arms are normally referred to as Corps, and this has nothing to do with the usual meaning of a corps (APP-6 size indicator XXX) as a grouping of divisions.

Now, you know that thing where a regiment (APP-6 size symbol III) is made up of several battalions, and is itself a component of a division (APP-6 size symbol XX)? That never happens in the British Army. Only foreigners do that.

I like to think that the intelligence officers of potential enemy powers who attempt to compile order-of-battle information on British forces are rapidly reduced to gibbering nervous wrecks by the illogic and eccentricity of it all. Misguided politicians occasionally attempt to tidy up the Army by merging regiments, introducing brigade cap-badges, and other insane ideas, but the Army always becomes knobbly and irregular again after a short time.

All the best,

John.

It's a cunning plan to confuse our enemies! You guys have been our allies for ages and even you are confused….

And if you hear Brits referring to 'The Royal Regiment' they are referring to the Royal Artillery, not the Royal Regiment of Scotland, who are generally referred to, in polite society, as the 'Royal Scots'. But if these Brits are referring to 'The Royal Corps' they mean the Royal Corps of Signals. If they are referring to 'The Royals' then of course they are referring to the Royal Marine Commandoes, unless of they mean the Royal Dragoons Regiment. Not to be confused with the Royals of the Blues and Royals, who are the Mounted troopers of the Lifeguards who wear Red Tunics instead of Blue ones. Who collectively are known as the Household Cavalry Mounted Regiment.

Recently the Royal Green Jackets, the Devon and Dorsets and the Light Infantry amalgamated to form 'The Rifles'. None of whom of course had previously had 'Rifle' in their previous title wihin living memory.

Speaking of Artillery, of course the Honourable Artillery Company's combat role is not to fire artillery pieces, they are a specialist recconaisance unit, and until recently the First Royal Tank Regiment were specialists in….Nuclear Biological and Chemical Warfare and didn't have so much a single tank on their roll….

Its all perfectly straightforward…

Oh my good gracious… I think I hate you guys ;)

Okay:
"In the first place, it might be a battalion-sized unit…" I think I got it, I'd imagine this goes back (for a bunch of the elements you named) to 18th/19th century cavalry tradition where a cav regiment was roughly the equivalent of an infantry Bn?

"In the second place, a regiment is a traditional family…" I think I've got it. Why do some have only one Bn? Budget cuts? And are there reserve battalions to 'fill them out' in case of war? USMC and USA battalions are commanded by Lt Cols.

"In the third place, the Royal Regiment of Artillery…" Got it. Again, I'd imagine their differentiation (Regiment instead of Corps) is a tradition? I was in the Marine Corps, so I gotcha on the concept of "officer corps," "intelligence corps," "corps of engineers," etc… In the Marines our "corps" is a MEF (Marine Expeditionary Force). Or at least, that's the most equivalent thing the Marine Corps has to a corps.

"Now, you know that thing where a regiment (APP-6 size symbol III) is made up of several battalions, and is itself a component of a division (APP-6 size symbol XX)? That never happens in the British Army. Only foreigners do that." I think I've got it; your regiments are admin while the Brigades are the actual combat element (pulling battalions from various regiments). The USA does some stuff like this that I could never figure out. The USMC is much simpler: 1st MarDiv has 1st, 5th, 7th, and 11th Marines, 2nd MarDiv has 2nd, 6th, 8th, and 10th Marines, and 3rd MarDiv has 3rd, 4th, 9th, and 12th Marines (the last regiment in each MarDiv is artillery).

You guys could definitely drive a guy crazy during an OOB interrogation…

And Sparker's just screwing with me, right? ;)

Now, on to my revised list of questions:

1) Please confirm this is correct:
WOI is RSM (not CSM as I stated above)
WOII is a CSM (not RSM as I stated above)

2) Any ideas on combat promotions for Brit paras/infantry in WWII?

Okay, now I'm ready for cricket!

V/R,
Jack

Ha!

In the U.S. Army, warrant officers drink in the officers' club. In the British Army, warrant officers drink in the NCO club.

"I know this cos I has one hanging on my wall, signed by Her Majesty Queen Elizabeth the Second!"

Ours are Acts of the U.S. Congress.

Tuscaloosa,

I don't think you're helping me get my questions answered. Nowhere near as bad as the ribbing we had with the Royal Marines in Bagram in 02, though ;)

V/R,
Jack

Jack: two nations separated by a common language for sure!

US Regiment = British Brigade (ie 3 battalions)

A British Infantry brigade may contain one Welsh, one English and one Scottish battalion for instance and may only be brigaded together for service in wartime.

Each of these battalions would be part of a parent 'regiment', which may have many battalions. I believe the Durham Light Infanty in the Great War had scores of battalions.

My Grandfather served in the Great War in the 2nd Welsh, which meant he was in the second battalion of the Welsh Regiment, which was another Regiment with many battalions.

Each battalion (regiment) in the brigade would have an RSM (senior NCO of that particular battalion).

Hope this helps!

"Now, you know that thing where a regiment (APP-6 size symbol III) is made up of several battalions, and is itself a component of a division (APP-6 size symbol XX)?"

Yes, our battalions/regiments (APP-6 II) are formed into brigades (APP-6 X).

The nomenclature proved especially confusing for German intelligence officers in WW1 as at the time German (and French, and Russian and Turkish) infantry divisions were made up of two brigades, each of two regiments, each of three battalions).

When they discovered that British divisions had three brigades of four 'regiments' each, they not unnaturally decided that BEF divisions were three times the size of German ones…

Don't get me started on the confusion caused by the 'Rifle Brigade' in WW2.

My father was a Lance Corporal, also confusingly an appointment rather than a rank:) although it became an actual rank in the early 1960s.

One rank/appointment not mentioned is that of Garrison Sergeant Major (GSM), of whom there are four, being the four most senior WO1s in the British Army. This is the only appointment now carrying four stripes, a tradition dating back to William IV in the 1830s. GSM is considered an acceptable alternative spelling of the word "God".

Some WOs go on to be late-entry officers, being promoted directly to Captain or Major to to work as staff officers in areas requiring their substantial expertise.

I believe at least one, possibly both, of GSM Billy Mott's brothers are commissioned former WOs; one was a major in the Welsh Guards, which must have caused some interesting discussions with his brother. I wonder who called whom "Sir!" first?

Mott is also the "voice" of the HM Armed Forces talking action figures:-

link

@ Just Jack
You might call these august persons 'Sir', but if you ever salute one,(As I did when startled by one) then stand by for Armageddon.
RSM 'Nobby' Arnold of the Parachute Regt in the 70's used habitually to wear Ammunition boots (with metal 'tackets' in the soles) and could subsequently, be heard approaching from a distance. However, just prior to his annual weapons re-classification, he acquired a pair of Boots DMS (directly moulded soles) and crept about Depot Para causing meyhem for a fortnight.

Check out 'Nobby' Arnold on Google, it's an education in itself

The Company Sergeant Major or CSM is a admin position in combat his role is to sort and arrange transport for POW's, ammo resupply and sometimes rations.
He is to be found at main Company HQ rather than tac HQ.

Killing me! How about:

1) Please confirm this is correct:
WOI is RSM (not CSM as I stated above)
WOII is a CSM (not RSM as I stated above)

2) Any ideas on combat promotions for Brit paras/infantry in WWII?

3) If going early war with Brit Paras (i.e., 1st AB Div's precursors – 11th Special Air Svc Bn, 1st Para Bde, etc…), would they/did they use WOIIIs as platoon leaders?

BF Andy – your description of the CSM's duties sounds like an exact match for our Company 1st Sgt.

Thanks guys. I'll have to check out Nobby Arnold when I get a chance.

V/R,
Jack

If you have ever had the misfortune to drive a Land Rover with mud dropping off of its chassis and tyres across a parade ground……you would know that the voice of an RSM carries over engine, radio and instructions from the vehicle commander……..fortunately I was in a Left hand drive vehicle, and able to re direct the 'correctional advice' to the sprog officer (vehicle commander!) in the passenger seat………….I still flinch at the memory!

Don't get me started on the confusion caused by the 'Rifle Brigade' in WW2.

Isn't it quite clear situation? Rifle Brigade (Prince Consort's Own) was an infantry regiment, that raised 17 or so infantry battalions during WWII. These were then brigaded with other battalions from Rifle Brigade or from other infantry regiments to form infantry brigades.

(Naturally there was no Prince Consort to be found in UK during WWII.)

"And Sparker's just screwing with me, right? ;)"

Umm, while presented in a joking manner, it is all completely true.

"would they/did they use WOIIIs as platoon leaders?"

No, platoons are commanded by officers, even in piratical organisations like 1st Airborne Brigade. Early Para platoons were very NCO heavy though, with sections commanded by sergeants (plus a corporal and a lance corporal). The platoon was still commanded by a Lieutenant though (plus a platoon Sergeant).

As per Gary's excellent site:

link

Jack, don't even worry about calling them WOl and WOll.
Normally they would called by their appointments as CSM, called 'sergeant major', or RSM called 'RSM'.

Calling an RSM ,'sergeant major', only could be harmful to his ego and your health.

The UK tradition is to have a regiment. It has a home base as it were called the depot, where it keeps many valuable trinkets and such. It used to also house a barracks where all recruits to the regiment started out from. From there they would be posted out to any of the various battalions of the regiment. During the second war some regiments may have had as many as fifteen different battalions in each.

This really is not different to the pre-1960 USMC. Except in the US the regiment fought as a three battalion unit. In the UK each battalion was posted to a different brigade. So an infantry brigade may have had three battalions from three separate regiments.

They referred to them kind of how the US would. So we have, "5th Onion Pickers" being the fifth battalion of the Onion Pickers Regiment. Think USMC, '2/24' et cetera.

Despite being battalions, they referred to their most reverand nco as the RSM even if it was at a battalion level.

As Sparker brought up, the RQMS is the regimental quartermaster. The bloke who sits in a moldy warehouse and is referred to by the combat arms people as the rag picker or bean counter. Sometimes a staff sergeant or maybe even a lower WO. There is also a company level equivalent the CQMS.

During the second world war, the TQMS was created. Mostly for tank units and anyone else holding specialized equipment. This is the Technical Quartermaster. They realized that for a tank unit, the RQMS were just getting swamped trying to keep hold of all the kit and all the specialized equipment too. It was even worse for the UK as they changed tanks faster than changing underwear. So while the RQMS was in charge of kit in general, the TQMS was in charge of all the specialized kind of serialized kit, say the radios, tank sights, replacement engines and other specialized kit. Most of the folks who bent a wrench or used parts that required wrench bending belonged to him or eventually reported and accounted back to him.

In armoured units the TQMS was normally the next RSM in waiting or just about to retire.

I don't know about the artillery artificers?
Sounds pretty similar though.

While the descriptions may sound similar, the UK habit is to only promote after a long bit of service. "What? Smothers was promoted to sergeant. He doesn't even have ten years in. What are they thinking, he's still wet behind the ears?" Given that kind of experience, not acting on their advice was taking your life into your hands.

I don't want to knock the US and promotion habits, there are some long serving and long suffering ncos there too, but it seems that some promotions were more based on filling the rank by filling the slot in the table of organization. 'But driving the captain around is a E7's job so here sew these on'.

When I joined the USAF in 1962, it was in the process of phasing out warrant officers. They still had some, but they weren't making new ones. When, as a brand new 2nd Lt., I reported in to my first base, the officer of the day was a WO. I thought he was a 1st Lt. at first, as he was an older man and I didn't notice the light blue enamel on his silver bars -- so I was calling him sir, and he was calling me sir, until I finally got close enough to notice the blue, and "the penny dropped," as the Brits say. But, yeah, in the USAF, WO's belonged to the O Club, not the NCO club. They were junior officers, theoretically slightly lower than the lowliest 2nd Lt.

By the way, did anybody manage to mention The King's Royal Rifle Corps? Though called corps, they happened to be neither corps (tactical formation) or corps (branch of service), but an infantry regiment.

Then there was The Royal Tank Regiment, known for most part of interwar years as The Royal Tank Corps, that was part of The Royal Armoured Corps. Logically, also the individual tank regiments sent to the field were known as Royal Tank Regiments, though they were also numbered to tell them apart from the mother regiment. Naturally, they were also brigaded together, to form tank brigades or armoured brigades.

Just Jack wrote:

2) Any ideas on combat promotions for Brit paras/infantry in WWII?

As troopwo has indicated, Commonwealth forces tended to be very grudging about dishing out promotion. That chap I mentioned in the Devons may have held the appointment of RSM for a while, but he received no promotion in rank as a result.

The idea of "battlefield promotion" is more a US than a British one, I think.

With the ever-present necessity to economise, there were however a lot of officers whose ranks were local, temporary, acting, and unpaid.

All the best,

John.

John D Salt,

From your comments it sounds like:

A rifle squad losing its Sergeant would simply have a Corporal run the squad. Would a Corporal run the squad from 1941 that way, would a Sergeant from another unit eventually be brought in, or would the Corporal eventually get promoted (what would be most common)?

I assume a rifle platoon that lost its Lt would be run by the Plt Sgt. What if they both went down?

Sorry to ask what probaby seem like silly questions, but these are very real problems in my campaign, and I know exactl what to do for US forces, but, after all I've seen here, I know a lot less than I thought about how your Brits would do it!

V/R,
Jack

As nobody seems to be listening I will just confirm that a CSM is a WO2 and an RSM is a WO1 – operationally you won't really have to worry about any of the other stuff !

Jack,

The British Army has Sections rather than Squads, though the word 'Squad' is often used for a small group under instruction – typically during foot-drill.

Sections then are commanded by Corporals, not Sergeants. Lance-Corporals are Section 2ICs and in WW2 commanded the Section's Bren Gun Group. The lowest Sergeant's post in the battalion is that of Platoon Sergeant.

The UK view.

When you commission something, then it merely enters service.

When you warrant something, you guarantee it will work.

The US Army officially called them sections also, but they were often informally called squads. Led by a sergeant (later staff sergeant) assisted by a corporal.

A quick thanks to Green Tiger.

Okay, sorry, I knew that Brits called them sections as opposed to squads (though I've never heard that about the US Army). So you have a section of "no-stripers," i.e., Privates, led by a "two-striper," i.e., a Corporal, with a "one-striper," i.e., a Lance Corporal as second in charge.

So, the Corporal goes down; the L/Cpl is now running the section. As we discussed, meritorious battlefield promotions weren't really done in the Brit Army, so:

1. Is that L/Cpl going to run the section, filling the Cpl billet, from 1941 to 1945 as a L/Cpl?
2. Is a Corporal going to be brought in from another unit, or
3. Will the L/Cpl eventually be promoted to Cpl?

Obviously I know L/Cpl's promote to Cpl, Cpl to Sgt, etc… The reason I'm asking is because everyone keeps referring to "long-standing service," and I've seen it myself when I worked with Brit and Aussie military; we were all surprised to meet Corporals with 18 years of service.

So, to me, "long standing service" means a significant (what we call in the US military) time in service and/or time in grade requirement. The heart of the question regarding our L/Cpl filling the Cpl billet is, would the Brit Army stick with not promoting him until 1945 when he's met the TIS/TIG requirements, or would they 'relax' these as he's filling a Cpl billet in combat? Or if he still had a long way to go to meet TIS/TIG requirements, was it more common to bring in a Cpl from somewhere else and have our L/Cpl revert to his previous billet?

Regarding the US Army in WWII, I've read and talked to vets who told me that not only were battlefield promotions relatively common, but promoting over T/O was common as well. What I mean is, in peacetime it's common to have men that have met TIS/TIG requirements but they won't be promoted unless/until there's a slot available. As veteran units finished one campaign and prepped for the next, it was common to have a number of men that met TIS/TIG requirements, and even though there were no T/O billets available they would be promoted in anticipation of casualties being suffered.

My grandfather and his two brothers were all USA in WWII, two in ETO and one in PTO. They told me going into their first campaigns their companies would be at T/O, and of course, way below T/O after the campaign finished. When pulled back to refit, replacements would be introduced, and most of the vets would be promoted, and by the end of the war it was common to have three or four Sergeants in a squad (going into action).

The first brother entered service in 1942 and was wounded in the Ardennes and evac'ed to the States as a Sergeant First Class. The second and third brothers entered in 1943; one was killed in 1944 (I don't know where, other than Europe) as a SSgt, the other made it through the whole war and got out as a Sergeant in 1945. So, pretty quick promotions…

Thanks for trying to help me figure this out.

V/R,
Jack

Simply stated, warrant officers class 1 and 2 fill the equivalent slots of 1st sergeant and Master Sergeant in the US Army.

"Sergeant Major" is an appointment, not a rank, and at company level the sgt. major is a WO2.

At battalion (infantry) and regiment (armor and artillery) level, the "Regimental sergeant-major" is a WO1

To answer your last question, in the event of heavy casualties, sections would be merged and the senior NCO take over. There was also the 'left out of battle' system where experienced personnel were kept back to rest and form a cadre to rebuild the unit if it was hit hard. If a company commander led his company in an attack, his second in command would be left behind at "B" Echelon. The system was instituted at all levels; if the CO was in action, the second-in-command would be LOB. Individual rifle sections would sometimes also designate one or two riflemen LOB

So far as 'establishment' promotions go, these were the prerogative of the company/squadron/battery commander.

Number4,

Thanks for the post.

"Simply stated, warrant officers class 1 and 2 fill the equivalent slots of 1st sergeant and Master Sergeant in the US Army."

That's not correct. The equivalent slots would be 1st Sgt and Sgt Major. 1st Sgt and Master Sgt are the same grade (E-8), which both the USA and USMC use, while E-9 in USA is Command Sergeant Major and Sergeant Major, while in the USMC E-9 is Sergeant Major and Master Gunnery Sergeant. The two ranks are for two different career tracks; the first is the admin/leadership position, while the second is for the technical expert.

This is 'left out of battle' system is fascinating, and something I'd never heard of. I can understand the concept of the company commander leading the battle with his XO/2IC further back, but leaving rifles out of a fight? At lower levels, does the PC fight and leave the Plt Sgt out of the fight, and the same with the Section Leader and his L/Cpl?

"…in the event of heavy casualties, sections would be merged and the senior NCO take over." So, if the fight was heavy and their are is no NCO to take over (I'm assuming we're not calling a L/Cpl an NCO?), we're back to the L/Cpl being the section leader. When you say "'establishment' promotions…prerogative of company commander…," does that mean he could waive any TIS/TIG requirements to promote the L/Cpl to Cpl? And is so, was it common for that to happen or to leave him a L/Cpl section leader (or even bring in a Cpl from another unit?)?

Thanks for the help.

V/R,
Jack

Here, have some more random drivel from me on various points.

1. The left-out-of-battle system was devised during WW1, so that battalions annihilated in combat could be reconstituted from the cadre remaining. By late WW2 it was also being used to rest men thought to be close to succumbing to battle fatigue. I do not know when we stopped using it.

2. Replacements would not normally be drafted in from other regiments -- more likely drafts would be received from the regmental depot. Not to say that inter-regiment transfers never took place, but unlike US practice a British soldier typically expects to spend his whole career in the same regiment. The worst mutiny of the second world war, at Salerno, resulted from troops being reallocated to strange units.

3. A Lance-Corporal is very definitely an NCO in British parlance. There was also the appointment of Lance-Sergeant (during WW2 more often spelt Lance-Serjeant), abolished shortly after the war (except in the Foot Guards, where it continues, but Guards are always odd). A L/Sjt was originally a substantive corporal qualified to be a Sergeant, and waiting for a slot to become available in the authorised establishment. He wore three stripes and was permitted to use the sergeants' mess, so it is entirely possible for a rifle section to be led by a L/Sjt in WW2.

4. The British section (APP-6 size indicator o) is equivalent to the US squad. The US section (APP-6 size indicator oo) is the next one up, just below platoon (APP-6 ooo) and corresponding roughly to the German "Halb-Zug". Very few current organisations use the oo-size level of command, but it would be a good fit for the current British "multiple".

All the best,

John.

John D Salt,

1. Got it. It sounds like a good idea to me at the (more) macro-level, i.e., hold a battalion or company out of the line for a few days. Usually referred to by us as placing them 'in reserve,' i.e., a chance to rest unless something really bad happens and everyone is needed right away. Different than maintaining a strategic or tactical reserve, though could be the same unit if casualties during the campaign dictate such. What I mean is, a battalion could place a company 'in reserve' for a few days to allow them to get back in fighting shape (while the battalion holds the line), and the company would be called up only if all hell broke loose. This unit, if there are enough to go around, is different than the battalion held in tactical reserve to exploit a penetration or shore up the line. I hope that makes sense…

2. Got it. But what about a Sergeant being pulled from a different company of the same battalion/regiment (and I understand that that one battalion may be the 'regiment'), instead of leaving the L/Cpl to run the section?

3. Got it, though I don't think I'll be messing around with any Lance Serjeants in my gaming.

4. By your definition, I would say US rifle platoons (as far as I'm aware) never had a such thing as a rifle section, only squads. However, sections were (and still are) commonly used in Weapons elements (platoon or company), i.e., the Weapons Platoon Mortar or Machine Gun Section, or the Weapons Company AT Section.

I appreciate it.

V/R,
Jack

Sorry Jack – I was referring to the WWII US Army in my comparison.

British regiments are very 'tribal' and as John says, inter regiment transfers are quite rare. Within the battalion a soldier might be transferred to special duties such as regimental police (MP) or the HQ element, but transfers between 'line' companies are again exceedingly rare – I don't recall ever seeing one in my service. Certainly no company commander would let one of his experienced sergeants go to another company.

The 10 man rifle section was the equivalent to the US rifle squad, informally broken into 'rifle' and 'gun' (lmg) groups. It didn't have the 2 man scouting team of the US squad. In practice, it was a lucky section that could call on seven or eight men to go into battle on any given day.

Platoon commanders often grouped their three Bren lmg teams together to provide a base of fire, and these could be augmented further by additional guns from the carrier platoon.