"Gaming WW2....if you had to do it all over again" Topic

Would you go 10mm or 15mm?

I'm struggling with price and space. I have, roughly, a 8x4 table, but for the price, 10mm seems so much nicer.

10 tanks in 15mm will roughly cost $80 USD

$80 USD in 10mm is roughly 20 tanks.

I'd prefer the ability to have 20+ tanks on the field at once.

Just curious to know what you'd all decide if you could start all over?!

Thanks

I would go 1/285 GHQ.

I started with 15mm, after buying samples of the same tank and type of infantry in 6mm, 10mm, 12mm and 15mm.

However, I found out I hated painting anything that small. I actually enjoy painting 28mm+ figures.

So, ditching all my 15mm stuff, and going now with 28mm. Not one of your listed choices, but there you go.

I go different scales for different levels of game. If I want sweeping armored formations ala Kursk, I go 1/285 like Bashy suggested.

My other scale is platoon level, and for that I go 28mm and have a big enough board to do company level actions with enough players (I have a 6 foot by 12 foot board).

Also, for 15mm, while FOW has an impressive variety, the prices are damn near on par with what I pay for 28mm scale models. Granted there are other companies with much more reasonable prices.

If I had to chose between 10 and 15, I would go 15, just because I enjoy modelling, and detail.

Probably 10mm, but it's too late for that now.

Back in the 1990s I was considering 10mm or 15mm. I didn't like the 10mm then available, so I went with 15mm. Unknown to me, Minifigs had developed a 10mm line that was very good. But apparently they sat on it, thinking 10mm WW2 wasn't a seller. When they did release them, I really liked them but was already deep into 15mm.

A sigh for what could have been…

I'd see the choice as between 15mm and 1/285th (GHQ – CinC – Adler infantry). IMHO the quality of 10mm vehicles just isn't on par with either 6mm or what is offered in 15mm.

You can get nearly anything in 15mm. You can get most anything (for WW2) in 6mm. That's not the case, though it's improved recently, in 10mm.

3mm for large actions and 54mm for skirmish. My 1/72 for in between. Actually, it is what I do currently.

I have 15mm for skirmish and 1/285 for Flames of War. Wouldn't change a thing.

I have 15mm for skirmish and 1/285 for Flames of War. Wouldn't change a thing.

Wait until you're too old to be able to see 1/285…

I'd stick with 1/72nd, and probably wouldn't have bothered with 1/300th. Maybe could have been tempted into 2mm, but not now.

I have 1/72, would go with 15mm.

If starting over now, I'd go somewhere between 20mm and 6mm: either 10mm or 12mm.

With time I almost always regret whatever gaming decisions I've made but not in the case of choosing 15mm I like that little more detail and there's alot more availability with the likes of buildings and accessories

I am still doing 15mm as I like the size. I can still see it. A few years ago I sold off my 1/300 & 1/285 as I can longer see it well enough to paint it. I am starting to sniff at the 28mm stuff for small unit actions.

If you want to do all infantry battles, 15mm.

If you want to do all tank battles, 1/300 (or 1/285).

If you want combined arms, 10mm.

I want to do skirmish. I invested into 28mm. I just wish I could settle down and feel I've found the rules I've always wanted (have to admit, my own shifting requirements don't help).

To start over again? I might strongly consider 1/72, mostly just to be cross-compatible with my gaming buddy. Don't like his rules, either.

I skirmish with 60mm but do larger battles with 20mm. I find that 20mm is well served by both plastic and metal.

I might not do 60mm if I had to start over again.

I'm a youngster (35 this year), and I don't like 6mm for ground battles. Part of that is not playing high-level games, but a GHQ 6mm tank on a base looks like a counter to me. It's too short to have it's own shadow, it looks like a green bump on the table.

I started in on 15mm with Flames of War, and have expanded into other eras, still in 15mm. Colonial gaming (Pathan Revolt), Napoleonics, and even into scfi.

I kept as much as possible in 15mm to keep my terrain all useful.

I would have loaded up on 10 mm when Wally World carried WTM and Minifigs before Tom moved to Germany (hint, hint).

I think I picked right first try, 12mm. It can be used like "big" 6mm for large scale scenarios, and the infantry is big enough that they don't look like counters.

I think about this quite often. I love my 15mm but not for big tank battles. I'm always drawn to the possibility of getting as close as possible to 1:1 figure to ground scale so 1:600 is really appealing to me right now. On the other hand GHQ just looks so darn good (not green bumps at all and surprisingly detailed). I'm really not sure which I prefer. Anything larger just seems too big in my opinion, at least if you want 20 or more tanks on the table. That said, I'm feeling less convinced of this and perhaps might become a convert to 10mm.

I've been arguing in circles with myself about this for years now, no resolution in sight.

Wouldn't change a thing. 20mm all the way.

10/12mm is the way to go, and I say 10/12 because Pendraken states it's 10mm and Minifigs 12mm, but they can be used together.

They can be based singly like this…

to play platoon-level games (Chain of Command, Disposable Heroes) on a 4' x 4' table, or skirmish games (Nuts!, Point Blank, Flying Lead) on a 2' x 2' table, or…


element-based for games like FOW, IABSM, Blitzkrieg/Cold War Commander, Rapid Fire, Spearhead, etc… (the bases aren't finished, but you get the idea).

Of course, I do both ;) I love the groundscale looking right AND having figures large enough to tell what they are. I have/have had 3mm, 6mm, 15mm, and 20mm at various times, and the wargaming megalomaniac in me would like to have every scale, but 10mm is the best for me.

Aside from the positives regarding scale and ID that I've already mentioned, they're relatively cheap, the lines are pretty well-developed and growing every day, they paint up well and quick, and you can do "paintjob mods" at this scale (this guy isn't the exact one you're looking for? Paint the right uniform on him and I bet he'll convincingly be whomever you need him to be).

My two cents.

V/R,
Jack

Just started again, wanted something simple, so I'm now doing FoW with 1/72 plastics. Affordable, and plenty of troop types available.

I would go 1/72. I like the scale and there are an abundance of kits and manufacturers available. Has the added advantage of being a cheap scale.

I would stay with 1/72nd scale.

I would stay with 28mm.

I game ww2 in 6mm, 15mm, 20mm and even have some old 54mm stuff knocking around.

As I have often said on Tmp, if starting over, I would just do 15mm, especially given all the modern plastics.

10mm has never grabbed me as a scale for any period, too much of an unhappy compromise.

We (Maneouver Group)opted to fight in two scales. Originally we fought only in 1/72. For close in urbam battles it is still the scale of choice. However for large tank battles the ground and figure scale difference becomes implausible. After much study we went to an alternative of 1/144 some call it 12mm.

We tried all the standards 1/300, 1/144, 1/100 (realy 17mm not 15mm.

Our opinions (which may upset some).

1/300
- At a grounds scale of 1m = 10m you need far too many scenary items to be playable. 300m square village takes too many houses. Although realistic its to fiddley as you are close (about 3:1) to real ground scale. The smallest tanks and jeeps weapons are too small to turn turrets, this is critical in our opinion to modeling a credible tank game. Finaly GHQ the much vaunted manufaturer was in my opinon worthless. Although the casting was excellent the gun barrels were so soft that they made it impossible to use effectively. On our opinion hopless items. Skytrex did more practical models and cheap but still in our opinion too small to game effectyively with.

10mm

No scale here as the figures are actually 12mm 1:144 Smaller vehicals are still too small but better than 1:300. They are still Cheap. They are by volume about 1/2 the size of 1:144. (you tend to percive volume scale not linear scale on models).

1/144

The smallest vehicals are now just practical and still a good step from 1/72. Capable of looking OK at 1m = 10m ground scale. 300m square village now has only about 20 houses which is close to Ideal for our simulations. Relatively cheap models, excellent avaiability of pre painted well detailed tanks. Infantry available from Pendragon and Minifigs. Good range of the smaller vehicals.

Lately we have found by making villages have houses that are temopraily fixed to a base, they can be used in an urban enviroment with 20 houses and more without hasstle or confusion. Pobably a good overall compromise. Loads of buildings as 1:144 is UK N guage (model trains) and US N gauge at 1:156 is livable with.

15mm to 18mm ???!!!!

1/100 is too close to 20 to 24mm (the latter being 1/72). They are not cheap and are not much smaller than 1/72 for which there is a lot of good cheap figures and models.

However ome of the new plastic stuff looks to be real 15mm (1:122) and could be an alternative to 1:144 as its cheap and quite small. Not sure that the range of vehicals is available yet. Not sure how you stand building wise.

In the end its all compromise.

We at MG are more into the game than the figures so 1:144 with its cheap figures and tanks is ours. Plus we can get what is not available designed and 3D printed for less than it would cost to buy a cpompany of the more expensive 1:100 models.

Buy a one model of each scale that is at the small end of what you would want to use and compare and contrast. That what we did. Everybody will have a favorite as its a compromise between the modeler and the gamer. We are unashamedly gamers first.

Do it again?

Id do it exactly the same way – 20mm.

Gods true size for WW2. ;)

6mm all the way. I want to be a brigade or division commander, not a captain or second lieutenant.

And they most certainly are not just bumps in 6mm..

I learned some time ago that I might choose a scale and a set of rules to go with them, but if no one else is playing or likes them then I'm stuck with a lot of models based to a rules system no one likes.

I would still keep 20mm WW2 because that is, for me, the bedrock scale for that period. I base the figures individually and organise them according to real TO&Es so I can play practically any game with them. Even with all the shiny 28mm figures and vehicles you can get nowadays, I still wouldn't opt for them because 20mm is a nice compromise between attractiveness, availability and getting plenty onto the table.

I "sold out to da man" and went with 15mm Flames of War about 2 years ago but I wish I'd done so sooner. I'm not talking about the pros or cons of the game, but one big plus is that it's a worldwide universally played system and I'm not stuck for opponents wherever I go. This, the ability to find opponents, is a big motivator of what I play these days.

I'd go with 10mm if I were starting anew, but I have so much 20mm stuff there's no chance of changing now.

I'm happy with my 15s. Great terrain choices. More flexible, cheaper and easier to paint than 25s. I wouldn't change.

TBH all scales have their merits. I certainly can see advantages in nearly every scale and its probably going to be a difficult choice. The factors that seem to be common to all scales is he quality . Compared to yesteryear and advanced production techniques in most scales the quality tends to be far better these days.

Other factors to take into consideration are

1) Do I have existing scenery if so what scale ?
2) Affordability – No doubt about whilst quality has got better we are also paying for it . Plastic could be your way forward and therefore consider which scales plastic models are produced in.
3) Are you relying on a single producer ? If this company goes bump , how do you stand ?
4) The range of vehicles and figures . Need to do homework here
5) What sort of battle do you want . ie Infantry skirmish 28s . Full scale tank battles – micro. Anything inbetween 15 0r 20mm
6) How much time do you want to spend painting ? Larger the scale tends to mean more detail which needs to be painted .

7) Forum support – Guild tends to be 20mm , FOW site tends to be 15mm , Warlord 28mm etc.

You could do worse and form a list similar to that above for what would be my requirements. You could make this list longer by adding more bits in eg is the range available locally ,if that is a requirement .Once you have placed all the scales next to the answers then just add them all up and then that will be your scale:)

I am quite sure the guys on here will have given you excellent information but it will be biased towards the scale that they model or game in , in most cases.

1/72 scale would be it. Lots of inexpensive plastic figures to choose from. Deep range of vehicles and equipment in either plastic or metal or even paper! There is even a fair bit of scenery out there. The size of the figures give the visual impact of larger scales and the price gives the affordability of smaller scales.

Wouldn't change a thing. 1/72 would be it still.

I focus more on infantry fights. In my rules there are three types of Tank. Light Tank, Medium Tank, Heavy Tank.
Light tanks go 36" medium tanks 24" heavy tanks 12". All tanks hit unarmored targets with a 3,4.5.6. Light tanks hit armored on a 6, medium tanks hit armored on a 5 or a 6, heavy tanks on a 4,5,or 6.

All nations are of the same type. Infantry, Elite Infantry, Militia, Partizans, Cavalry, Light medium, and heavy artillery, anti-tank guns, machine guns, mortars, heavy mortars, machine guns AA guns, Siege guns, Engineering troops. Dive Bombers, Fighters, medium bombers, heavy bombers. That's pretty much all of it. The games are "army level."

Yup! 1/72nd.

I'm not daunted by the need to have many buildings at small scales. I've got a big bag of Monopoly houses and hotels that are easily paintable and do quite nicely for 1:600. Pretty easy to make a town with 30 – 40 buildings and less than a 30cm x 30cm footprint.

15mm, always have, always will.

Would you go 10mm or 15mm?

15mm

If I find a particular aspect that will uniquely work better in 10mm (or some kit that is particularly splendid in that scale) then I'll get everything I need together in 10mm for that project (but I think 54mm will be the next scale for WWII for me … I like the sound of 54mm Crossfire that I saw mentioned … and indeed I do like 1/32 figures)

Phil

Sorry, but no.

never started it but now I'm thinking about doing WW2.
Just don't know if in 20mm or in 28mm.
smaller scales are just too small for me

I want to do skirmish. I invested into 28mm. I just wish I could settle down and feel I've found the rules I've always wanted (have to admit, my own shifting requirements don't help).

With the plethora of WW2 rules with dodgy acronyms like CoC, TW&T and MUF all aimed at skirmish games with 28mm figures I'm surprised you can't find something you like. :-)
As for starting over again I think I would stick with 15mm. I had 20mm as a lad, but that was all there was. I switched to 15mm as I gamed other periods in 15mm and could save on having different scenery for 2 different scales. The problem with 10mm is very few people game with that scale in other periods.
I've also started doing skirmish type games in 28mm with upto 30 figures a side and the odd vehicle. Again I have figures in other periods in 28mm so there is a crossover with scenery. 28mm has the advantage of the figures having more character than the smaller scales.

I keep coming across comments about 6mm and 1/285 or 1/300 scale where posters are saying they can't manage to paint anything that small. I'm closer to 60 than 50 by quite a margin and have no problems. I use a set of cheap +3 magnification reading glasses and that's enough to let me do a reasonable job. I wouldn't condemn the smaller scales for being small, use them as intended for larger actions.

In terms of the OP's question go with the scale that your local opposition uses as that will give you games. If you are playing solo games then I would go with the smallest scale that gives you the quality and the range of models you want. My logic is that it reduces your costs and lets you get more lead on the table. But don't forget other factors such as terrain availability and cost.

If you are playing solo games then I would go with the smallest scale that gives you the quality and the range of models you want. My logic is that it reduces your costs and lets you get more lead on the table. But don't forget other factors such as terrain availability and cost.

I keep hearing that 6mm is cheap, but I don't get the logic. You just buy more and spend the same. Most people I know with 6mm collections have loads of stuff. I have more 15mm tanks than 28mm ones. It an axiom of wargaming that forces expand to use the budget available or the budget you can sneak past your significant other. :-)

I keep hearing that 6mm is cheap, but I don't get the logic. You just buy more and spend the same. Most people I know with 6mm collections have loads of stuff. I have more 15mm tanks than 28mm ones. It an axiom of wargaming that forces expand to use the budget available or the budget you can sneak past your significant other. :-)

I think it is a function of table size. So they way I figure it, if I go for one of the cheapest 15mm options, say PSC – a box of 4 tanks is roughly $32 USD for which I can buy roughly 20 GHQ tanks. But the table footprint for 20 6mm tanks is much larger than 4 15mm ones. Generally, on my 6 x 4 table I would be deploying no more than 20 maybe 30 max AFV per side. The real difference is not the cost, but the fact that in 6mm, I have 4 different large German WW2 Forces (for Poland/France, DAK, Barbarossa and Late War), 4 British/Commonwealth forces, (1940, early Desert, late Desert and 1944 D-Day to Ardennes), French 1940, etc. Using 6mm gives me much more variety in the scenarios I can play for the same price. It also means that unlike games with a smaller number of vehicles, the odd 'lucky shot' has proportionately less effect on the outcome. MY take of course, YMMV.

15mm for me. Better availability than 20mm locally, costs less & weighs less, so postage is less of an issue. Big enough for skirmishing & small enough to fight large scale actions.

There's not much in 20 mm that I can't get in 15mm. More space for the same sized table & if using CoC rules a 1:1 figure:ground scale.

If I started wargaming over again now I'd say "all genres at the same scale". You can get practically anything at almost any scale, but terrain is the big thing that takes up all the space. Having only one copy of a building instead of three or four would save tons of space. Personally I'd choose either 15mm or 20mm but you can do it with almost any scale. When I started wargaming in the '70's available scales were more limited.

I'm with Fred and Kusrau both. I say get 10mm because it's cheaper, but I just end up buying more, and to Fred's point, that's what's going to happen anyway…

But where you come out better is with Kusrau's point: I could spend 'x' amount of dollars and have a US force and a German force in 15/20/25/28mm.

Or I can spend the same 'x' amount of dollars in 10mm (or 6mm) and have 3 US forces, 4 Brit forces, 4 German forces, a Russian force, and a Japanese force.

I keep it all in 10mm and thus a great proportion of my terrain works for everything. It's not perfect, but I have pine trees and I have coconut trees, and those two types of trees take me anywhere I want to go. My bombed-out buildings work most everywhere as well.

A side note is that I'm saying this after having spent quite a bit of money on 3mm, 6mm, 15mm, and 20mm before settling on 10mm. This is not a knock on any of those scales (I'm not looking for a fight!), I'm just walking you through how I got to where I am.

And one last thing to bring up (perhaps again): don't be put off by the supposed lack of diversity of the smaller scales in terms of what you can game. Quite often I hear that "6/10mm is only for battalion level games and higher, and skirmish absolutely must be done in 15/20/25/28mm."

The reason I posted those 10mm photos above was not to showcase my terrible painting ability. I was attempting to show that you can do the standard, multi-based gaming for company level and higher. But you can also play skirmish (individually based) games in 10mm (there's quite a few folks that do it in 6mm!). I would submit that, in terms of perspective and miniatures viewing distance, there's not a lot of difference in playing a skirmish game in 28mm on a 6' x 4' table and skirmishing in 10mm on a 3' x 2' table (while sitting down, which is a huge plus for me). I will admit that my humble 10mm collections don't have nearly the majestic beauty of some of the beautiful 28mm on the market, but I will point out the fact that I think the ground scale for 10mm on a 3' x 2' looks a heck of a lot more realistic than 28mm on a 6' x 4' table.

Lastly, the painting aspect. I keep hearing "I could never paint something that small." I have the opposite problem. Again, I'm not saying beautiful figures aren't cool, but what I am pointing out is the "what can you see on the table?" factor. In the time it takes me to paint one 20mm figure (camo, multiple shades of skin pigment, every single button/buckle/piece of gear) I can paint a whole platoon of individually based 10mm or a whole company of multi-based. And if you're the type that absolutely HAS to paint camo, multiple shades of skin pigment, every single button/ buckle/piece of gear, well, you can do that to; it's 2013 folks, the detail is on there if you want to hit it (look at the Pendraken forum under their painting competition and I promise you'll be amazed). But I think you're not going to see that stuff on a 10mm or a 28mm guy unless you're holding him in your hand.

For what it's worth…

V/R,
Jack

But the table footprint for 20 6mm tanks is much larger than 4 15mm ones. Generally, on my 6 x 4 table I would be deploying no more than 20 maybe 30 max AFV per side.

You are very restrained. The guys I know with 6mm would put a lot more than that on a 6'x4' table. Heck I've seen tables with more 15mm on them than that. No the point I was making is the guys I know spend about the same as I do on a given force, they just have a lot more stuff in it than I do in 15mm. The reason is they have stuff I don't have like aircraft models, artillery, recce, engineers, recovery, bridging, HQ units etc. I just have an infantry company and a few tanks.