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"German "Ordonnance" Gendarmes" Topic


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Don Sebastian07 Oct 2013 3:18 a.m. PST

I'm trying to understand a little more about the German Gendarmes of the late XV/Early XVI Century. In L&F Funcken book "The Age of Chivalry, Vol. 2", It is mentioned that Emperor Maximillian organized his compoanies as being composed of 50 Men-at-arms, 50 Mounted "Archers" and 50 "Foot archers. Did those foot archers really exist? And If so, would they have bows, or would they be just dismounted "Archers a cheval"? Also, I think I read somewhere that there were light cavalry attached to the companies (I imagine those would be Mounted Crossbowmen, but I've read the crossbows were prohibited in 1507), that later evolved (alongside the Mounted Archers of the Companies) and became the famous Reiters, but my book mentions no such troops even in the 1522 reorganization of the Companies by Charles V or in the composition of the Companies in 1547. Can anyone help to shed a light in this subject?

Daniel S07 Oct 2013 5:21 a.m. PST

Those are not German companies rather they are the old Burgundian companies which Maximilian retained inservice and which were still in existence in the 1590s

GurKhan07 Oct 2013 8:08 a.m. PST

If you do want to find out about the Burgundian companies under Maximilian and Marie, the article at link is a good starting-point.

Don Sebastian07 Oct 2013 9:14 a.m. PST

Got it! But didn't he form any German Gendarme Comapanies after becoming emperor, or would all his and his successors heavy cavalry (Ordonnance Cavalry) be still burgundians? Also, do you know anything about the Mounted crossbowmen and possibly other light cavalry which alongside the archer from those companies, became the Reiters (Schutzenpferd)?

Puster Sponsoring Member of TMP07 Oct 2013 3:26 p.m. PST

He did form Ordonnances. The info you look for is in:

"Österreich im Zeitalter Maximilians I."
Wiesflecker, Hermann. – München (1999)
Chapter III.5, p.268 – Das neue Kriegswesen

Some 6 pages of 500 are dedicated to the military order.
I just read that part and try to give you a small summary. I had this page open for several hours now, and contributed a bit whenever I could spare some moments – so please bear with me if it reads a bit disconnected:
------
Maximilan translated the Ordonnance of Charles the Bold into German in 1473.

The feudal levies had ceased to be effective before his time, so Maximilian tried to implement a "new Ordonnance" in several steps. His main focus was the security of the Empire, and specifically Austria, vs. the Ottomans. In
the late decades of the 15th century the Ottomans looked unstoppable for a time, and many prophets of doom saw them taking Italy and advancing to the Rhine.

For the "provision" of a Landgericht (judicial power in a county) or a castle the holder had to provide horses and "Kürisser" (read: Knights) who had to be available for campaigns at need for three months for free, and would be paid if the campaign took longer.
The core unit demanded by Vieanna in 1498, a "Gleve", was fromed from one heavy armoured Kürisser and six lighter armoured "Einspänner" for support. Vienna was ordered to provide 100 Gleve. This unit was complemented by 800 light horse (probably mercenaries) and 200 Trabanten, and in the case of war some 1000 more cavalry would be added by the affected county.

This also meant that Ämter (official posts) would usually only be given to those who were able to take part in a campaign, or (less usual) pay for those who were able to, leading to a many knights on official postings.

In times of real emergencies, a levy was still part of the new ordonnance, again mainly aimed versus the Ottomans. In some areas, notable the mountaineous areas, these levies were of better quality and sometimes served mounted or with arquebus, eg. in Steier and Tyrol.

For major campaings the backbone of the army would be infantry companies made up of hired Landsknechts, financed by whatever means the Empire could scrap together (formally an allowance of the states as granted by the infrequent Reichstage).

Some counties sold the licence to hire mercenaries in their areas, and then paid for the complete unit, so the creation of landsknechts Fähnleins became a business fast. Entrepreneurs were often from the lower nobility – they would pay for, or be granted – the right to recruit and then hire out their company to the state or Emperor – and sometimes foreign masters. (Landsknecht units took part in the last battles of the War of the Roses, fought in Sweden and in 1502 at the lake Smolina in the battle between Russia and the Deutschorden – on the Russian side) The commander of the regiment got the money and had to
redistribute it, similar to the Condotta of Italian states (though here the state often paid the money directly and hired smaller groups or even individuals).

Despite attempts by Maximilian the Landsknechts were not part of any standing force, as the states denied the Emperor the budget to raise and keep such a powerbase.
This meant that Landsknechts were hired for campaigns, and always at the risk of unemployment and starvation. "Gartende" (roving) Landsknechte were the bane of peacefull times, and in the next decades many famous and infamous robber bands were thus created.

Aside Landsknechts Stradiots were also sought mercenaries, mainly for their role as light cavalry. Maximilian also favoured artillery and light guns on "Burgunderlafette", known to him from the Burgundian wars, were usually part of
any army.

The state ordonnance were used after the Burgundian model, as heavy cavalry. In 1499 Maximilian had some 300 Burgundian Gleve in his army.
The ideal battleplan was to open a battle with light artillery, attack in the center with Landsknechts – or let them hold a central position when the enemy could be forced to come) and cover the flanks with the cavalry, who would provide the decisive blow when the enemy would wafer.

Maximilian supported the creation of an army industry, mainly for guns, but also massed Landsknechts equipment.


Though, in summery, a Maximilan army would look similar to
that depicted in his triumphal procession, but probably with a higher amount of lightly armed Reiter. The equipment of the 6 "light riders" is not given, though the following page breaks down his order to create a regiment at Vienna in 1498 as follows:
link

1724 cavalry:
Four units (leaders are given) with each:
25 Kyrisser (heavily armed gensdarmes)
25 armed Knights, preferably relatives of the first batch
26 "Knaben" (young Knights or Pages)
26 marstaller – armed with handguns
76 lightly armed Trabanten
252 lightly armed "Einspännige" (just one horse)

Of the Kyrisser, one will be "lüttinant" and another "venricher" (lieutnant and banner bearer)

Each banner has a main colour: red white blue yellow,
each banner is bordered with all colours and has in the center the Burgundian golden cross.

As usual, I welcome any additions and corrections :-)

Don Sebastian08 Oct 2013 5:26 a.m. PST

Thank you very much! I have three questions:
1) What was the equipment on the Trabanten, and were they mounted? Also, the german (burgundian style) companies wouldn't have foot archers, would they?
2) Would both the Kyrisser and the armed knights be heavily armored and in horse armor? What about the Knaben and the marstaller?
3) Were the mounted crossbowmen independent units that fought alongside the regiments? And did they disparar after Maximillian ban on crossbows in 1507?
Again, thank you very much!

Puster Sponsoring Member of TMP08 Oct 2013 7:43 a.m. PST

Trabanten were in later times "Leibwächter", personal guards. During the earlier times, they were trusted soldiers who guarded and aided the officials and at times executed their orders. The term is leaned from the Czech drabant (foot soldier). A trusted companion is still termed a trabant in German today, so the moon is sometimes referred to as Erdtrabant.
I think of them as a mixture of guards and military police, veterans who usually have more power then the usual landsknecht but derive this state from their superiors. Similar to the lictors in Roman times, the amount of Trabanten an official got paid often tell his status.

Trabanten were certainly mounted in this unit (no surprise since this is the point of this ordonannce) – the name Trabaant was also used in Landsknecht regiments and then referred to infantry soldiers with the same function. Afaik the are usually shown as Veterans – sorry that I cannot help you better with the equipment.

The term Trabant is also used for servants within the Landsknechts, often boys who follow a specific "Knecht" before they are old enough to fight themself.

-

As there is no mention of food archers, I assume there are none. The page is more or less a translation from the direct ordonnance of Maximilian, so unless the "Einspänner" were archers… Actually the "Einspännige" are a pretty interesting type of soldiers – they are often mentioned in the Regesti, and seem to be some kind of professional mounted soldier who were used to execute offical orders, as scouts or in small independent units to ensure the security of roads or areas from robbery. Some are honored by name and given gifts for their acts. They seem not to be usually non-noble, though sometimes special provisions are made for noble Einspännige. They were sometimes even used as ambassadors (though courier was a seperate profession). from 1498 to 1504 the Regesti mention Einspännige some 100 times, though I have yet to find hard information on their equipment. They are definitely not usually foreign mercenaries, and seem to be expected to fight with the Kyrassiers or indepentently as needed. Daniel can probably help out when he reads this.

The Kyrisser should own horse armour, though I am not sure he would necessarily use it on campaigns. I assume that the availability depends on the individual wealth, and that armour would be more unlikely among the second rank – though I would not be surprised when some of the armed knights did have it and some of the Kyrissers not. Just guessing here, though. Only the full armour of the Kyrissers (full cuirass) seems to be set by the ordonnance. I assume that marstaller and the young knights would also bear what they could afford, so I would at least expect breast cuirass and helmet.

The Marstaller are given a handgun by edict, and are responsible for the horses – so I would expect them to usually not be in the thick of fighting and perhaps a bit less armoured.

When modelling these in an army (TAG makes fine foot Trabants), I would use the light horse (Einspänner) and the Marstaller as optional seperate units, with the option of putting them within the main body of the cavalry. These should be led by fully armoured Knights (Gensdarmes) and drop in armour quality with the rear ranks. I would, however, be hard pressed to find satisfactory miniatures for the lesser armed cavalry at the moment.

I have no knowledge of any crossbow armed units – on foot or mounted – in the post 1500 Maximilian army at all. It seems he did not like them much and probably gave that ban to prevent levies or mercenaries to collect the gunners higher sold with a crossbow. I am sure they were still used occasionally, because it would be a waste to dump them and arsenals were plenty, though afaik not as units in the field. ("Archived" crossbows still played a role in the defense of Malta some 65 years later, and I assume this also holds true at less documented battles before.)


So much for my speculation. I am still trying to find a good resource on the early campaings of Maximilian in Flanders, so if anybody knows a good book :-)

Puster Sponsoring Member of TMP08 Oct 2013 7:52 a.m. PST

BTW: just found a source for "Einspännige" for Augsburg.

The main difference to Landsknechts was that they made individual contracts which were often for life – or as long, as they could delive. The point was that they would provide armured mounted service for their employer. In the case of Augsburg the demands were "Panzerärmeln, Armzeug, Rücken, Krebs, Ringkragen und Sturmhaube"
>armoured arms, back, front, gorget and helmet

I assume that he was not equipped with bow, crossbow or handgun, and IF so in the 16th century the handgun and later pistol would be most likely (my guess).

Augsburg, one of the richest city of its time, had some 40 Einspännige in service during the early 16th century.

They say, however, that the term was also used for the levies that had to serve with a horse – so the quality of an "Einspänniger" seemed to vary greatly between a professional mercenary equipped like a knight and a peasant with a mare (though usually should refer to someone more on the upper end of this).

Daniel S08 Oct 2013 1:46 p.m. PST

From which year is the Augsburg description?
The equipment translates as "Mail sleeves, arm harness, back, breast and burgonet" in English terms and I'm trying to pin down when the sturmhaube/burgonet becomes common in use.

Puster Sponsoring Member of TMP08 Oct 2013 3:04 p.m. PST

I got it first from:
link

The source was given as:
Jürgen Kraus, Das Militärwesen der Reichsstadt Augsburg,

Searching for the exact date, the title seems to be incomplete and lacks a "1548-1806" to specify the era.

This would put the source well without the scope of Don Sebastians original question – sorry for the confusion.


I was just trying to find a standard for the "Einspännige", but it seems that the term simply labels all service provided by a single mounted soldier, from peasant to knight.
The main difference to the Landsknechte seems to be that the treaty is usually made on an individual base between soldier and employer – rather then between soldier and regimental commander, who then seeks service for the regiment.

Hermann Wiesflecker, in Kaiser Maximilian I.: das Reich, Österreich und Europa an der Wende …, Band 5, mentions that to begin wieth the "Einspännige" were mainly the lower nobility who drew their claim to nobility from the very fact that they were serving at arms – so they started as the remnants of the old feudal system and represented a class that became more and more economically unsustainable. Wiesflecker continues that Maximilian, unlike Francis in France, was unable to bring this class behind is reformation of the military reforms.

The term "Einspännige" seems to be one that only came in use under Maximilian, for a search in the Regesta Imperii only shows one usage at 1403, and then starts to used regularly at 1493 (just as he reinvented the "Gleve" as a term for his new "Lance"). In later documents it refers to contracted mounted soldiers, not to soldiers serving their feudal obligations – though I assume it would be used for those, too (I have not read all the 100 currently available documents with a hit on the term).

Matheo09 Oct 2013 2:04 a.m. PST

" I would, however, be hard pressed to find satisfactory miniatures for the lesser armed cavalry at the moment."

What about Eureka's Mounted Archers?

Don Sebastian09 Oct 2013 3:39 a.m. PST

Thank you very much, Puster! That's incredibly helpful! One question, when did the horse armor became common for the german renaissance cavalry? Many drawings by Paul Dolnstein show heavy cavalry without it, as well the earlier pictures of the "Kriegsbuch von Phillipp Mönch". The osprey book on German Late medieval armies also show heavy cavalrymen of the XV Century with little armor…

Also, does anyone knows how would the equipment of the German Gendsarmes have changed during the XVI Century? All I know is that the heavy lance seems to abandoned by the 1560s, and that horse armor was rare before that. Are there any XVI century equipment regulations for the Heavy Cavalry "Gleves" after the 1498 one by Maximillian?

Puster Sponsoring Member of TMP09 Oct 2013 3:30 p.m. PST

>What about Eureka's Mounted Archers?

Stupid me, to overlook these – especially as a unit of around 30 (including Gensdarmes) sits right beside me. Actually these are imho close to perfect for the era between around 1495 and 1520, even for the German armoured Einspänner. Afaik they used contemporary works, including Dürer, for inspiration.

I just forgot them because they have one major problem – they are decisively smaller (perhaps 10-20%) then other miniature ranges, like the Perrys, TAG or Foundry. For the Spanish light cavalry this might work, but for Gensdarmes with their bigger horses they look too small, and thus cannot be mixed within a unit with other brands. As the riders come with integrated saddles its also hard to convert them. As units purely made up of Eurekas they are fine, though – actually more then fine. As individuals they are splendidly sculpted and cast, each and every miniature a small piece of art.

For varieties and sizes sakes I hope, however, that Pro Gloria will release lesser armoured knights after their coming Gensdarmes, and if there is one brand that will give the handgun armed Marstallers a chance, PG might be it. I am also looking forward to the light cavalry by the Perries, though these will likely need some conversion before they can be used for continental armies.

@Don Sebastian
I have not any actual "knowledge" at the moment concerning the horse armour. I know that Maximilian tried to copy many of the Burgundian habits, and horse armour was definitely in the style of the time (afaik the first one that survived was created 1450 in Milano, so probably their usage is of Italian heritage).

In major battles it is often depicted with the Gensdarms (see the Genua thread currently here), though sometimes it also is glaringly lacking. I assume it was pretty expensive and would only be used for serious engagements.


Regesti Imperii research: In 1496 an order was given to some Knights (probably Einspänner) to escort a set of horse armour from Augsburg and Innsbruch to Milano, and in 1499 the city of Freiburg was ordered to give the Burgundian guard 25 sets of horse armour (gliger) in the wake of collectingt he shambles after the defeat of Dorneck. In 1502 a gliger for the Emperor and 6 saddles were given a worth of 26 flRh (a Landsknecht got 4 per month).
In 1504 the value of a normal gliger was given with 10 flRh, and 200 were ordered and delivered. These were made out of buffalo hides.

Gliger is a version of "Gelieger", means roughy: the laying (stuff). They differ between light and heavy Glieger, the former just having some parts while the latter covers most of the horse body.

As there are not other hits on Ross- or Pferdeharnisch or Gliger in the RI, I assume that they were pretty uncommon equipment – though specific equipment is not often mentioned in imperial dispatches anyway. If the main force of Austria is made up by some 1700 cavalry, of which 100 are Kyrisser, and incidentally some 100 new Gliger are ordered, I would assume that on average one member of a Gleve (of seven in total) has horse armour, and on longer campaigns I cannot imagine them in use by any but the most important knights. The rank & file stuff (those who could not afford their own) would get one made of stiff hide, though (my guess) probably richly adorned and painted, probably reinforces with armour plates.

There are many fine examples of armour sets in the several museums, though these do not give us a more complete impression of the equipment of a full army then a museum of automobiles would give us for the typical street scene. In addition, most of the actual heavy armour was created for the tournament scene and not for battlefield usage.


When building a miniature army, I would give the first rank horse armour (heavy gliger), the second rank mainly light glieger and none for the rest, having at least half of the unit on unarmed horses – and creating a unit fully without barded horse would imho not violate historicity, as often mobility would count for more then protection.

Druzhina09 Oct 2013 7:08 p.m. PST
Don Sebastian11 Oct 2013 3:48 p.m. PST

Thank you again, very much, Puster!

A question, to anyone who can help: Were there any new equipment regulations for the men of the Ordonnances/Gleves during the XVI Century? If so, what were they?

Don Sebastian15 Oct 2013 7:25 p.m. PST

I've been searching, but I haven't been able to find the following information: How would the german Archers and Coustiliers be equipped during the 1520s (around the time of the battle of Pavia) and in the 1540s/1550s (between the time of the Schmalkaldic War and the Second Margrave War)?

Don Sebastian23 Oct 2013 10:19 a.m. PST

The L&F Funcken book shows these figures (

picture
) as 1540s Archers of the Ordonnances. It doesn't mention from which nation are those, but the short description of the drawings mentions the Ordonnance regulations of Charles V, and this, as well as their pennants, and the Gendarmes's red sashes (not on this picture) made me think those might be Imperial Cavalry. Would those figures be appropriate? Also, what is the name of the article of clothing the Archers are wearing over their armors?

Druzhina23 Oct 2013 6:00 p.m. PST
Don Sebastian24 Oct 2013 5:16 p.m. PST

Thank you, Druzhina! I had not seen those great pictures at your site! However, I think the Archers of the Ordonnance companies would, after the early decades of the century, be no longer archers, but lancers with less armor.

GurKhan25 Oct 2013 6:52 a.m. PST

"I am still trying to find a good resource on the early campaigns of Maximilian in Flanders, so if anybody knows a good book :-)"

A book that was recommended to me when I was looking into Max's "Burgundian" armies a few years ago was Ernst Richert, "Die Schlacht bei Guinegate 7. August 1479" (Berlin 1907).

Not a book, but "L'armée, le Prince et ses sujets : le financement de la guerre aux Pays-Bas bourguignons après la mort de Charles Le Téméraire, 1477-1482" – link – is also interesting if you haven't seen it.

Druzhina25 Oct 2013 5:27 p.m. PST

Also, what is the name of the article of clothing the Archers are wearing over their armors?

Perhaps a tabard.

Druzhina
Illustrations of Costume & Soldiers

GurKhan26 Oct 2013 5:03 a.m. PST

Not sure what the garment is called, but link would appear to be the Funckens' source.

Daniel S26 Oct 2013 11:53 a.m. PST

So basicly it's a bad 19th C portrayal rather than a period source. The plate also confirms that it is the Ordonnance Bands of the Low Countries which is portrayed, the caption in the Funcken book provides a lot of details which fit perfectly with the Bandes de Ordonnance but not with any known German cavalry at that time.

Don Sebastian26 Oct 2013 5:31 p.m. PST

That sucks, I thought I was close :/

Daniel, do you have any information about the equipment of german non-reiter cavalry of the 1540s/1550s? I found some paintings from the period depicting what seems to be cavalry soldiers, some in full armor, and others in 3/4. Would the first be Men at arms, and the other archers?

I'm going to post the link to some contemporary paintings of what seemed to me as non-reiter german cavalry from around that time:

The Sermon of John the Baptist, 1549

Samson and Delilah, 1537

St. Paul, unknown date (in this one, only St. Paul and the man grappling him seem to be non-reiter)

Daniel S27 Oct 2013 1:58 a.m. PST

By the 1540's the Germans had long abandoned Maximilians attempts to introduce an Ordonnance style organisation. Instead there were temporary formations raised for a campaign by military enterprisers. We are actually in luck since for this period documents survive including muster rolls and "bestellungen" (the contract which laid down equipment, organisation and pay for an enlisted unit)

By the 1540's German cavalry was listed as beloning to one of 3 categories in the muster rolls:
"Kürisser": A fully armoured man-at-arms, in theory with horse armour but in practice often serving without it, This is the rarest type, muster rolls usually only show a few dozen at most.

"Speisser": A lancer wearing a form of half armour, very similar in equipment to the "Demi-Lancers" of the later 16th C. The legs are at best only partly armoured or completly unarmoured.

"Schützen/Pferdschützen/Schützenpferd": Mounted arquebusiers armed with a pistol as well and wearing a partial armour known as a "Trabharnisch" together with mail sleeves.

"Kürisser" and "Speisser" had pistols as well and when the "Pferdschützen" demonstrated their effectiveness against the French cavalry including the Gendarmes they increasingly favoured going into action without their lances.

The Cranach painting of St. Paul does seem to show St. Paul himself as a "Kürisser" while the man gripping his saddle fits the description of a "Speisser". Everyone else is a "Pferdschützen". But since this is a religious painting it is impossible to tell if these similarities are intentional or if they are merly coincidences. Which is why purpose made military artwork is much more usefull as a source.

Don Sebastian27 Oct 2013 6:44 p.m. PST

Thank you very much, Daniel! So, with the exception of the Kürissers discarding their horse armor (I've read that it was uncommon/inexistent by the 1550s/1560s), those would be the three kinds of cavalrymen and their equipments in German service during the period of peace after the 1540s up to the Long War (1591–1606)?

Daniel S28 Oct 2013 11:39 a.m. PST

The division into Kürisser, Speisser and Schützen existed at least on paper until the end of the Habsburg-Valois war in 1559. But in reality the Schützen (i.e Reiters) became the dominant type, by 1557 only a small number of lance armed "Speisser" were still to be found in the ranks of the German cavalry in Imperial service.

Reiters & Schützenpferd had also been the dominant type of cavalry in the 2nd Margrave war of 1552-1554. Cavalry with firearms were also seen by Lazarus von Schwendi as far more usefull against the Ottomans than the old types of cavalry

So the Schützenpferd became the typical German cavalry and soon gained a "cousin" the "Gerustet Reiter" which was simply a Schützenpferd who had replaced the arquebus with a pistol. (Or in some cases kept the arquebus but added another pistol). These two types were also much in demand as mercenaries while noone was interested in hiring "speisser" or "kürisser".

Don Sebastian28 Oct 2013 2:26 p.m. PST

Thank you very much, Daniel! In an old topic here, answered by you, there were the following pictures:

picture

picture

Would those be late century german Cuirassiers (I thought the german didn't use cassocks for their cavalry during the late part of the century)? And would those cuirassiers be an evolution/merging of the former Kürisser and Speisser? Or just an evolution of the Kürisser which became the TYW cuirassiers?

Also, there is this picture ( picture ) of the capture of GOdesburg, in the Cologne War of 1583. There are some lancers, which I think would be Speissers, and some mounted arquebusiers with cassocks. Would those arquebusiers be "Pferdschützen"?

Daniel S28 Oct 2013 11:04 p.m. PST

No, that is a classic example of how an artist (Franz Hogenberg) depicts a style of clothing and equipment which he knew rather than that actually what the troops used in the campaign. All of the troops in that print are dressed and equipped in the style used in the Low Countries by the Spanish and Dutch as well as being to some extent found in France. Hogenberg is simply using the same style of art he had already used to portray events in France and the Netherlands rather than adopting a new style for his Cologne War prints. (In addition a lot of the troops active in the Cologne war were from the Netherlands.)

German Pferdschützen are distinguised by their equipment, pictures of which can be found in the same old topic where you found the image of the cuirassiers.

Those particular cuirassiers are Dutch, the top image is from an unpublished cavalry manual for the cavalry of Maurits van Nassau while the lower image is an engraving on a Dutch armour made for Duke Karl of Södermanland (Later Karl IX, King of Sweden)

Cuirassiers evolved outside Germany and are first to be found in the French wars of Religion from where it spread to the Netherlands. The Habsburgs then hired out of work French, Lorrainer and Walloon troops for the Long War against the Ottomans and from these troops the Germans begin to copy Cuirassier style equipment and the lighly equipped mounted arquebusier (The later style is often refered to the Burgundian or Wallon style in the documents.)

Don Sebastian29 Oct 2013 8:48 a.m. PST

Got it! So both the Cuirassiers and Mtd Arquebusiers of the TYW are a development of cavalry formations that originated in the Nehterlands and France and later started to be recruited by the Habsburgs.

One last question: From the 1560/70s (when the imperial regulations stopped mentioning lances) to the Long War against the turks (where the Cuirassiers and Wallon style lighly equipped mounted arquebusier appeared and fought alongside the Reiters/Pferdschützen), what categories of cavalry, other than the Pferdschützen, appeared on the muster rolls, and what was their expected equipment?

khurasanminiatures29 Oct 2013 11:04 a.m. PST

No, that is a classic example of how an artist (Franz Hogenberg) depicts a style of clothing and equipment which he knew rather than that actually what the troops used in the campaign.

A not uncommon occurrence -- it's interesting how often artists portray Swiss infantry in High Gothic attire into the 16th century when even in the end of the 15th century Swiss sources are already talking about the slashing of clothing deplored by many religious and educational types (until they adopted it too!).

Many presumably had access to the Swiss illustrated chronicles of the 15th century….

Daniel S29 Oct 2013 1:44 p.m. PST

So both the Cuirassiers and Mtd Arquebusiers of the TYW are a development of cavalry formations that originated in the Nehterlands and France and later started to be recruited by the Habsburgs.

Yes, the "Long War" saw a massive transfer of "living" military knowledge from the "West" into the Habsburg hearthland. The war with the Ottomans was the proving ground for a lot of men who later saw action in the TYW. For example Tilly, Wallenstein and Mansfeld to name the most famous. In some instances former comrades in arm faced each other on the battlefield. The Protestant cavalry commander Hans Michael Elias von Obentraut was mortally wounded in the Action of Seelze in 1625 while fighting against the troops of his old comrade and commander in the Ottoman war, one Jean Tserclaes, Count Tilly. It was Tilly himself that closed Obentraut's eyes after having kept vigil at his deathbed.

One last question: From the 1560/70s (when the imperial regulations stopped mentioning lances) to the Long War against the turks (where the Cuirassiers and Wallon style lighly equipped mounted arquebusier appeared and fought alongside the Reiters/Pferdschützen), what categories of cavalry, other than the Pferdschützen, appeared on the muster rolls, and what was their expected equipment?

Reiters & Pferdschützen were pretty much dominant among the enlisted (i.e "mercenary") units raised by military contractors. Then you had the cavalry that was provided by the nobility which is a highly complex subject in itself since the shape of such service varied greatly, not only in the type of cavalry demanded but also in what type of cavalry did turn up. For example in Styria (Steiermark) the nobility was to provide "Gültpferde" at rate determined by their wealth in times of war. These cavalry men were on paper armoured as Kürisser but without the horse armour. But in reality they almost always turned up in lighter armour and by the end of the century had in effect become pferdschützen for the most part even though the old regulations still applied.

The other cavalry seen in action was the Hussars employed by the Habsburgs along their eastern border. Both military borders employed standing units of hussars to counter Ottoman raiders and to launch harassing counter-attacks across the border. (Basicly both sides recognised that as long as raiding forces were smaller than 4000 men and did not have any artillery a raid was not an act of war which broke the peace…)These hussars had helmet, breast and backplates, mail shirt or just mail sleeves with a mail skirt. Shields were used in the 16th C and arms were saber, lance and panzerstecker or pallasch.

Don Sebastian29 Oct 2013 2:15 p.m. PST

Thank you for the immense support, Daniel! So just clarifying, there would be no german native lancers after the 1570s (with the exception of the TYW Wallenstein Guards), right? And about the transition from Maximillian's Ordonnance-style cavalry to the 1540's Mercenary-like cavalry, did it happen under Charles V, or after him?

Also, was that any type of nobility heavy cavalry that appears at the muster rolls of 1570s-90s other than the "Gültpferde"?

Thank you all for contributing to this topic! My special thanks to Daniel and Puster.

P.S.: The story of Count Tilly and Hans Michael Elias von Obentraut is really a sad one. I can only imagine the pain felt by the comrades when they were about to fight each other.

Daniel S31 Oct 2013 3:19 a.m. PST

You are welcome :-)
At least not in sufficient numbers to be noted in the Habsburg and other armies I've , nor were they required by the Empire wide regulations issued in 1570.

Maximilian relied to a large degree on "mercenary" cavalry as well, he simply did not have the finances or state control to raised and mantain significant standing forces in his German lands. Issuing Ordonnances is one thing, ensuring that the troops are not only raised but mantained is another. For example the "Burgundian Garde" (The 300 Burgundian Gleve mentioned by Puster above) he brought with him to Germany and used in the Schwabian war seems to have ceased to exist by 1504. The imperession I have gotten from studying the army composition is that the units raised according to Maximilians ordonnances were temporary formations that had to supplemented by troops from other sources rather than a standing force similar to the Frence Compagnies d'Ordonnance.

By the time we get to Karl V I at least can find no trace of a Ordonnance system in the German lands of the Habsburg domain while Karl V did have such a system in place in the Netherlands and made significant use of it as well.

It is indeed a sad story, professional soldiers did as a rule accept that they could find old comrades facing each other in battle. it was a risk of the trade. After all it was not unusual for a military man to serve several master during his career. For example Hans Georg von Arnim had served Gustavus Adolphus as colonel, then became a fieldmarshal in the Imperial army and ended up fighting the Swedes in 1629, then joined the Saxon army and fought against the Imperial army in 1631. But while fighting against each other was accepted the death of an old comrade in arms or even a respected professional enemy was a cause for sorrow and lament. Hence Montecuccoli exclaimed "A man is dead today who did honour to Mankind!" when he learned of Turenne's death and even staunch protestants like Robert Monro and Gustavus Adolphus praised Tilly's life and service even though he had been a Cahtolic and an enemy when they learned of his death. Of course there could also be plenty of men who showed rancor and hatred but the attitude between enemies could often be much more complex than one would assume at first glance.

Don Sebastian31 Oct 2013 8:19 a.m. PST

Thank you so much, daniel! That information about the change of cavalry organization/recruiting during the transisition from Maximiliam to Charles V covers my last questions about the German cavalry of period (:

Just to check, would "Gültpferde" be the name/category of all the heavy horse provided by the nobility duringthe 1570s-1590s period?

My best regards!

Daniel S31 Oct 2013 9:45 a.m. PST

No that is the name used in Styria/Steiermark, basicly each region could have it's own name for that type of troops so you will have to check every single duchy, princedom, county and so on if you want to find the various diffrent names. And of course the names could change with time as well.

Don Sebastian31 Oct 2013 10:06 a.m. PST

Got it! Thank you again, dear friend!

Don Sebastian07 Nov 2013 1:56 p.m. PST

Guys, one late question, are there any books (available to buy, or at googlebooks/archive.org) that could help me find the muster rolls (what would be the german word for muster roll?) and regulations of the german cavalry of the century?

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