"Suggestions for ECW rules with the following parameters" Topic

Hey Guys,
Looking for a set of ECW rules that is available in the USA.
(ie one our local store can order and carry)
Trying to promote some ECW/TYW games in the area.
The local store, Treefort Games, has some 10 boxes of Warlord
figs in stock plus some Old Glory.
So need a set of rules
a)still in print that the store can sell
b)rules that have a low learning curve
c)perhaps can also handle TYW.
Thanks

Hmm … that's quite tricky. I would have suggested Victory Without Quarter, but they are free and you say you want the shop to sell them.

Then I might have suggested Pike and Shotte (published by Warlord games) and although they can handle TYW quite well, they're not actually that good for ECW.

See also this thread:
TMP link

Very simple, Neil Thomas' book "Wargaming, an Introduction" has pike and shotte rules (among other periods) that cover ECW, TYW, also Italian Wars and French Wars of Religion. Very low learning curve – Thomas likes simple games.

Eight units per side, first one down to two loses.

I see the book on Amazon, don't know about other sources.

Forlorn Hope are good and should be capable of being sourced

Field of Glory: Rennaissance would also work, II think the store wouldn't have any trouble stocking it. The next best set is probably Pike and Shotte from Warlord. The store could easily sell it as a complete system with the Warlord Boxed Sets.
I'm not saying either set is the be all and end all for ECW, just the rulesets the store will probably most easily be able to source and keep in stock.

If the people buying the rules have no ECW understanding, then one of the generic rule sets like Pike & Shotte or Field of Glory will probably be fine. At least to start.

Once they "graduate" and are ready for some period specific rules then I'd recommend Forlorn Hope. It has a steep learning curve but has the best period feel once you learn them. Forlorn Hope also handles TYW battles pretty well.

Don't go anywhere near Neil Thomas' rules.
There's nothing ECW or TYW about them.

If the store MUST sell a set of rules AND there are a lot of "Games Workshop" players around, then (even though I DO NOT LIKE them) I would suggest "WarHammer ECW".

But I think that a far far better idea would be to use Clarence Harrison's free "Victory Without Quarter" rules. They are only 13 pages long (which includes lots of eye candy). They are quick, easy-to-learn and fun.

Nowadays any commercial set of rules is in itself a significant financial commitment . . . but if you can GIVE players the rules, then buying and painting up a few units becomes much more financially accessible.

I'd suggest that the store contact Clarence and see if he will allow them to print up some copies of VWQ and then GIVE them away to potential players . . . they will more than make up for the loss of rule book sales with figure sales by getting more people playing.

-- Jeff

Jeff of SaxeBearstein, Warhammer ECW is a fine rule set for the period. Sadly, given D6's parameters I cannot recommended it because Warhammer Historicals closed their doors and the only way to get copies of the rules is at flea markets and ebay. But yes if many of the players at the store are Warhammer Fantasy players then they would find Warhammer ECW a fast study. I have never played Forlorn Hope but know it is well regarded among those who love to game the period and it is oft times referred to in scenario supplements. Pike and Shot I think is going to fit your bill best but again, I have not played it as of yet but intend to buy a copy. The Hail Ceasar! game engine is the same for Pike and Shot with some tweaks tossed in for the period. If you have ever played Warmaster you have pretty much played Hail Ceasar/Black Powder/Pike and Shot. Warmaster is in my mind one of the best tabletop miniature wargame rule systems every devised.

Jeff would you be kind to provide the link for Victory Without Quarter please. I always want to take a look at rules for the pike and shot period. Personally, I would steer clear of Fields of Glory. FOG is a DBX clone and in my not so humble opinion lacks depth and flavor. Others like it but it is not my cup of tea. So take that with a grain of salt knowing where my biases are.

Welcome to the pike and shot period and in particular the English Civil War and the Thirty Years War. Done right it is a tactically interesting and challenging period to war game. It is a time period where conventional Medieval/Renaissance theory of war fare was challenged and underwent a seminal change. Contemporary theorists of the age were in thrall with the classical period and attempted to apply their understanding of Alexander the Great, Hannibal, Pyrrhus, and Caesar into their tactics.

It is some years since I got a copy of "Victory Without Quarter", but the link is still up at:

link

Mr. Harrison also now has a blog (which would be another way to contact him) at:

quindiastudios.blogspot.ca

Sorry, I did not realize that WH ECW was out-of-print. I should mention that "Forlorn Hope", while almost universally accepted as having an excellent feel for the period, is NOT a "quick" set of rules either to learn or play.

I have not even seen the "Pike and Shot" rules so cannot comment on them.

-- Jeff

FOG is a DBX clone and in my not so humble opinion lacks depth and flavor.

I wouldn't say FOG is a DBX clone. It has units, not elements, and morale checks unlike DBX. I would agree that FOG-AM (Ancients and Medieval) lacked depth and flavor. I have never played FOG-R (Renaissance) but most players seem to feel it gives a much better game than FOG-AM.

FOG-AM is done but the new(ish) FOG2 is out. Don't have any hope for it either.

There are a bunch of rule sets out there. Some good, some not so- per personal preferences of course.
The advantage to 'Pike and Shotte' is ease of availability and tie-in to Warlord figs. Fairly simple and a pretty good introductory and comprehensive set of rules, nice pics if that's what you like.
You could also take a gander at 'Bloody Kingdom' and/or Father Tilly – very comprehensive on the TYW and fairly simple. – have zombie supplements too if that trips your trigger.
Just took a quick gander at 'Victory Without Quarter' looks like fun – no profit margin for the store though.

Thanks Guys,
I'm looking over Victory without Quarter
and think that I have a good starter set of rules!
Units sizes seem perfect for the Warlord boxes.

I'm also going to order Pike and Shotte
since we play a bit of Warmaster at the store.

Noted other sets to peruse as well.
Mike

"Victory Without Quarter"

PDF link

Thank you, Desert Fox, that is a much better link to VWQ than mine was.

I will note that a store's profits will come more with figure sales than rule sales particularly if you have more people playing.

-- Jeff

"FOG is a DBX clone and in my not so humble opinion lacks depth and flavor. Others like it but it is not my cup of tea. So take that with a grain of salt knowing where my biases are."

FoG: R has units, army list specific rules and units that conform to historical formations. Quite the contrary, the only thing it has in common with DBX is basing, 6 sided dice, the use of figures and the author is the same (or more accurately one of them is). It is quite a departure from DBX…

Not your cup of tea, check. Opinions are worth their cost.
Facts are priceless.

I think the problem is that FoG may be a bit more complex and that lower complexity was desirable? I will say that for Renaissance, they have taken off like crazy and that community has in the main, very much embraced them. It allows you to play more than ECW too, which is a good thing.

"FOG is a DBX clone and in my not so humble opinion lacks depth and flavor. Others like it but it is not my cup of tea. So take that with a grain of salt knowing where my biases are."

FoG: R has units, army list specific rules and units that conform to historical formations. Quite the contrary, the only thing it has in common with DBX is basing, 6 sided dice, the use of figures and the author is the same (or more accurately one of them is). It is quite a departure from DBX…

Not your cup of tea, check. Opinions are worth their cost.
Facts are priceless.

I think the problem is that FoG may be a bit more complex and that lower complexity was desirable? I will say that for Renaissance, they have taken off like crazy and that community has in the main, very much embraced them. It allows you to play more than ECW too, which is a good thing.

"Then I might have suggested Pike and Shotte (published by Warlord games) and although they can handle TYW quite well, they're not actually that good for ECW."

What an utterly bizarre thing to say. Groundless.

"If the people buying the rules have no ECW understanding"

I love posts like this.

How did pikes deploy?
How did they interact with shot?
Did cavalry caracole, if so what did that look like?

You don't know? So why do we need "expert" rules.

I play the Neil Thomas Pike & Shot Rules from his Introduction to Wargaming Book with my own local amendments.

They are a lot of fun and I've extended them to include some exciting battles set in the Nine Years War and Great Northern War where the rules on mixed units work quite nicely.

I've also expanded on his lists and introduced loads of special rules to bring plenty of chrome to my Italian Wars, Thirty Years War, later Feudal Japanese and New World Conquistador/Aztec games.

The system is very straightforward, easy to remember and readily adaptable to enhancements, special rules and period specifics.

Desert Fox, likewise thanks for the link to the Victory Without Quarter rules. I just took a quick peek and it looks most promising. Jeff, appreciate the links as well. I may have found a new rule set that I like. Ancient Gamer, glad you took my comments about FOG in the spirit that they were presented. It seems others were offended and I picked up a few stifles. Ah well, their loss and no skin off my nose.

Stiflers really are such sad people. So afraid of opposing views!

For those who might be interested (especially Solo Gamers), I used the "Victory Without Quarter" rules for a 16th century "Imagi-Nations" series of battles. They are chronicled on my "Alpian Wars" blog (use the Archive to start at the beginning):

alpianwars.blogspot.ca

The significant thing about these games is that I was suffering from a serious illness and was unable to game normally. So I enlisted the aid of a couple of online gamers to act as opposing generals.

They created their battle plans and I would endeavor to carry them out until I deemed it was time for them to update their orders . . . so I'd post photos of the current situation and await their instructions.

Not knowing what would happen next as I turned the card decks provided a much-needed relief from my medical woes. VWQ works very nicely for solo gaming . . . particularly with the input of online generals.

-- Jeff

Jeff, I take you are doing better now? Hmmm…using the ECW period for Imagi-Nations now there is an idea!

If this is about selling ECW/TYW minis and rules at a hobby shop then you need to get "Pike and Shotte".

Warlord can provide the rules and miniatures.

And speaking of the "Pike and Shotte" rule book … it is worth the price just for the pictures (and battle reports) in it. Talk about inspirational!!

This is the GW model … rules and miniatures in tandem.

Mike B

Unless someone is continually posting truly offensive material (sexual perversion, racist, bigoted, etc. opinions) I have never understood the stifle. So easy to ignore and you might pick up some interesting information.

I have only stifled from requests such as Sparker's when they are trying to win or some such. I think John the OFM was doing the same once. We live in an era where censorship is considered bad. Next thing we will have people burning their Internet devices to censor what they see ;-)

ECW is not my thing but it sure is a good period to get into for Renaissance warfare as you have two opposing factions unlike other periods where you are looking at painting so many armies. I guess most revolutionary periods are similar in attraction in this way?

These days, I am "into" rules that can cover multiple periods since I have interest in many. It is a bit tedious to learn period specific rules over and over again. Probably one of the major attractions to Black Powder I would think?
For periods that I wish to game more often, I would probably lean towards a period specific rules set. The attraction to FoG: R to me is that it is broad in scope but narrow in focus when it comes to army lists and how they behave. I like rules that are broad but have specifics for changes in army behavior, tactics, etcs. I don't think that a rules set that is so narrow in scope will do well for most retailers at the local level.

Like the look of VWQ but the standard unit size is a bit small – one stand of 6 per shot sleeve and one stand of 6 for a pike block.

It is popular so I am sure it gives a good game but I do prefer the look of big units with lots of models on the table. Does anyone play VWQ with larger units or more stands per unit?

"Then I might have suggested Pike and Shotte (published by Warlord games) and although they can handle TYW quite well, they're not actually that good for ECW."

What an utterly bizarre thing to say. Groundless.

If I understand it correctly, P&S allows the shot sleeves to operate independently of the pike block. Indeed, I believe people have said that it is the preferred tactic in P&S (i.e. the game engine makes it easier to defeat opposing units by doing so). Assuming that is in fact the case, such independent action is completley ahistorical for the ECW.

Like the look of VWQ but the standard unit size is a bit small – one stand of 6 per shot sleeve and one stand of 6 for a pike block.

Sould be straightforward enough to use either more bases or bigger bases with more figures.

"Then I might have suggested Pike and Shotte (published by Warlord games) and although they can handle TYW quite well, they're not actually that good for ECW."

I completely agree.

Phil

As I understand the original poster, he is trying to build interest for the ECW in his local area. His local game store has a supply of figures, but no rules available.

He wanted suggestions for rules that the store could sell that were available in the US; had a "low learning curve"; and would possibly work for the Thirty Years War as well as for the ECW.

So the real objective would be to get people playing; not requiring the store to purchase more inventory in the form of rules.

Now "Victory Without Quarter" (being free) IS available AND it has a low learning curve (and I used it for an earlier pike & shot period, so it would work for the TYW once you add provision for a few other troop types). In addition to this it is FUN!

So once again, here is the link provided by Desert Fox to download VWQ in its entirety:

PDF link

I would also suggest that D6 Junkie (the original poster) provide folks with the following link to Wargames Designs excellent supply of free downloadable flags:

link

So there are free rules, free flags and a supply of figures at their local hobby store . . . now all they need is players, eh?

-- Jeff

PS, and then there is nothing wrong with the store adding a copy or two of "Pike & Shotte" or "Forlorn Hope" for those who want a more complex set of rules.

Victory without Quarter looks interesting. I think we'll give it a go. I don't think that a 3 base P&S unit is a bad thing you can field more regiments that way! Reminds me of the old CWG rules "For God, King & Country" (if memory serves…).

Hey Guys.
Been following the posts and chatting with my co-ECW
gamer Rick.
Looks like we're going to give Victory without Quarter
a try.
I intend to build pairs of like coated units so that later if we go to Pike and Shotte or other rules I'll still be able
to run larger units.
Thanks Jeff for the wonderful link to the flags.
And thanks to all for your input!
Mike

Mike,

You are most welcome. By the way, the Wargames Designs site also has a section on Coat Colors:

link

It has most (although not quite all) of the coat colors for the flags.

Good luck with your project . . . and may you recruit others too.

-- Jeff

I was kindly directed to the League of Augsburg site that has clarifications and FAQ's regarding the Victory without Quarter rules. Very useful.