"1/100 WWII with minimal / no scale distortion?" Topic

Are there any rules that play well at that scale? So a two yard table by 1 yard is a 100y x 200y space, and all the figures and tanks and houses are at their actual table size.

Chain of Command. Adjust ground scale to suit.

You don't need to adjust the ground scale for Chain Of Command. It is 1:100 so you will have no scale distortion.

I think the actual ground scale for chain of command is 1:120. The rules give 12" = 40 yards. Which is 1' = 120'

Anyway it is remarkably close to the figure scale of 15mm figures.

We have been playing with 10mm figures (1/150th) and it takes a bit of getting used to, having the ground scale in with the figures. We are so used to compressed ground scale that it takes a while to adjust your mental picture of what the size of the table represents.

I generally get confused by this "ground scale" discussion. So fred, when you are playing, do you mean that weapons shoot what they would (well, close at 1.150 vs 1/120 that CoC is) in "real life"? Is that what's mean by ground scale? Or is that terrain is "in scale" – a village takes up a very large area and isn't three buildings and a pig in a small enclosure?

I'm intrigued.

Ground scale is simply the scale of the terrain. Which in most wargames is not the same as the scale of the figures. Ground scale is usually quoted as 1 inch (or cm) equals so many yards or metres, rather than a fractional scale.

To give an example, a UK Ordnance Survey map has a scale of 1/50,000 or 2cm = 1 km. If you played a game directly on the map then that would be the ground scale.

Force on Force is written assuming a groundscale close to figure scale. Every weapon but pistols (and shotguns) can fire the length of the board, so you need lots of cover.

There isn't an 'official' WW2 release for the Osprey edition of Force on Force, but if you hop on the Ambush Alley forums, there is a WW2 patch that people have put together.

If you're putting vehicles on the table, I strongly recommend a 4x6 as a minimum (when 'normal' 15mm tables are 2x2 or 2x3).

Normal 15mm tables are 2x2 or 2x3?

My gaming table for 15mm WW2 is 8ft by 5ft, and that's too small sometimes!

IABSM ground scale is 240:1 I believe, so you are looking at US style 285:1 figures.

I maintain 40k makes more sense if you play with 2-3 10mm figures on a base- it being the BASE that counts as '1'.

The only problem with that scale is, if you use armor, it's always firing at point-blank range. (100 yards/meters is usually the shortest range for which data is available.)

Normal 15mm tables are 2x2 or 2x3?

If we're talking Force on Force, yes, normal table size for 15mm minis is 2x2 or 2x3. All the Ambush Alley games can be assumed to be starting just after contact.

I like the idea, but a 6' x 12' table is only 200 x 400 yds/meters, so……………………., pistols and hand grenades anyone?

but a 6' x 12' table is only 200 x 400 yds/meters

As mentioned above, Chain of Command is designed for 15mm, 20mmm or 28mm figures and has a ground scale of 12" = 40 yds which means that a 6 x 4 table is 240yds by 160 yds. Seems to work fine for up to a supported platoon on each side.

200 x 400 yds/meters, so……………………., pistols and hand grenades anyone?

I don't think anyone could chuck a hand grenade anywhere near 200 yds and I would guess a pistol is pretty inaccurate at much more than 50 yds.

I have been playing at "real scale" for 5 years now. I think the trick (for me at least) is not to get caught up in how far a weapon can fire which is a mistake many people make in a skirmish game. The important bit of information is, "what are the odds of effectively hitting someone at X range?" A rifle can easily fire across the board. But can you hit the bloke 200 yards away as easily as 50 yards away? Effective range does not have the same practical effectiveness across the entire range.

I really enjoy it; more immersive.

Cheers

Joe

I like the idea, but a 6' x 12' table is only 200 x 400 yds/meters, so……………………, pistols and hand grenades anyone?

What's the attack frontage for a battalion in Normandy?

Pistol range is 25m for a master, and I don't think people can throw a hand grenade more than 40m.

The Germans were directing 80mm mortar fire 250m from the mortar platoon, and all of about 50m in front of the attacking platoon! Rifle range is roughly 200m, as well.

Considering many people have a 4x6 table it maybe smaller, and after one turn if moving each side I think most would find themselves within pistol and grenade range very quickly, really.

The Germans tended to drop their mortars closer to their own troops than nearly all other nations as part of their general training from the start IIRC as part of their Blitzkreig mentality and to maximise their chances of getting into contact with an enemy just recently hit by said mortars. Other nations generally didn't do this at all so I'd say you'd either have to double the minimum distance of the Germans (as to how close they fire from their own troops) or start compressing ground dcske s bit with certain weapons anyway.

In my WWII game I haven't even tried to tie it into a specific scale, but weapons are worked out relatively to each other. Also apart from shirt range weapons like pistols and SMGs all weapons shoot at unlkmited range. However they have an effective range and then unlimited. You can wound and kill within effective range, but can only have a suppressive effect at targets over that range. So a rifle has an effective range of 21", the M1 carbine or STG44 have an effdctive range of 15" (but can fire unlimited also), whereby in both cases a target can receive a kill, wounded or suppression, but at long/ unlimited range targets will only receive a suppression result. That way LOS is the key factor to shooting a target. I think that Joe has it correct in that respect.

We (MG) have looked at this. Because our rules are all in actal ranges you can run it at any ground scale. That said we have not done it1:1 our selves. Look at a bit or real world that fighting at 1:1 is practical. You will find real world gaps that a 1:1 person will get through or stand in that your figgure will not. Most bases are half figure height. That means there are passages your figure will not fit down. You now need rooms, garden walls, hedges, and sheds. Some of which your figure may not fit in/behind. Not saying you should not have a go but its not as simple as it looks.

Ark,

That is exactly where I was going. In my rules there is a chance for a kill at long range for a rifle (over 100 yards) but it is primarily a supressive/interdiction weapon at that point. We agree on the concept and would now quibble around the edges. :)

UC,

Agree as well. At 1:1 the board becomes different. Wall and hedges are a big deal. But I think this is only important for skirmish type games where each figure represents one person. I have not had the problems with bases that you describe.

Cheers

Joe

Back when I used to care about such things I began actually taking note of things when I was wandering around the countryside.

In my own balliwick of North western New Jeryey which is still mostly forests and farms it found that in the woods the visibility even in winter with the leaves all down was about 40 yards which on the table top for 25mm is about 20 inches. On a wide open field with watching cattle meander about it I found that there were still enough declivities and hummocks to completely hide a whole cow in it and the cow's not trying to make use of cover, and so on the average visibility was about 100 yards. When I was out in pancake-like Nebraska the same held true, there were enough small rills and ridges and real visibility was not much more. Sure you can see for miles, but from a tactical point of view I noted there were all sorts of bits of cover and the like that could render a person almost invisible.

Another thing from my days of hunting, I noticed that if somethign stands still, very still, it can also be very hard to see. In the montage of complex terrain (trees, houses, grasses etc., we notice movement far quicker.

Shortly thereafrer I decided the whole scale thing wasn't worth the trouble and dropped worrying about it.

Another factor was time.

Question? How long is the Union Fish-hook at Gettysburg. Answer- about 3 miles.

Question? How long can a man walk at a goodly pace without running or hurrying in one hour.
Answer about 3 miles.

This means that the ENTIRE Union line can be traveled in one hour. It can, I've done it.

In games where a turn represents an hour of time, therefore the small itty-bitty-piddily movements made are completely ridiculous. This is important because while that's time on the surface of earth, on the surface of the table top, the requiremens of the rules, and moving troops, adjudicating fire, melee, retreates blah blah, blah, looking up rules, thinking, and arguments etc etc etc and all the rest takes up about half an to forty five minutes. As I wanted a battle to start, run and finish and reach a decision in no more than five hours that mean't the maximum would be 10 turns, in which each player would get his own move.

This is why in my rules I simply tossed out all move complications and the iddly-biddily-piddily movements. If you have the initiative you can move as far as your leedle ole'heart desires, even from one end of the table top to the other, being stopped only if you come within 1 measure (8") of an enemy unit, or enter rough or very rough terrain. The guy without initiative is limited to 2 measures for cavalry one measure for everything else. (Remember-- fishhook- Union Battle line). By the way a mesure is the frontage of one of your units in line. Range is also for most troops one measure. This works, as I've found a rough relationship between effective weapon range for infantry units and frontage. Modern period is of course quite different when you get to machine guns and artillery but it still generally holds.

This is why I threw out all thought of scale years ago. Not worth the candle and actually hurt the game.

We have been playing tactical games using a 1/300th ground scale (12" = 100 yards) with 1/100th scale figures for years. A 6 x 4 represents 600 yards x 400 yards, plenty for a reinforced company vs reinforced platoon. When translating the terrain from 1:25000 scale maps of NWE, there is a whole ton of terrain in 600 x 400.

We used to do it wiith 1/300th scale figures so there was a 1:1 relationship between figure scale and ground scale, but our poor old eyes are too tired these days.

600 yards was also the attack frontage of entire soviet rifle divisions in the third battle of Kharkov…

When looking at 'scale' in games, one needs to consider how much space did they take up in real life, and how long did it take formation x to get from A to B in real life. Real combat is incredibly slooooow, but marching around is quite quick.

In my online 1-1 WW2 games, which use 20mm figures (individual men, not stands) and 1/76 or 1/72-scale models, I was using a ground scale of 1 foot = 100 yards. That was for late-war NWE scenarios, mostly. At that scale, 1 foot is point-blank range for tanks, 5 feet is close range, and beyond that on my 5x8' table is medium range. However, for my current Barbarossa campaign, where most tanks are light tanks with smaller guns, I'm using 1 foot = 50 yards; so 2 feet is point-blank and everything else on the table is close range. Small arms use 33 yards/meters (8" by the current scale) is point blank, 100 yards/meters is close range, 300 is effective range for standard rifles, etc.

Ottoathome: the question your "move-as-far-as-you-want-to" type rules raises is reaction time: Would the enemy (non-phasing side) really not be able to react while you marched the full length of the table? Is that "realistic"?

Queen Catherine,
I think most of the comments are similar, you need to understand what and why you want 1:1 scale. I might suggest something like Crossfire. Personally I am not a great fan as it for me is only good for foot infantry. Its attemps to do Tanks and Artillet were just hopeless. However for foot it seems to work. What it does is show you just how mutch rerrain you need for a good 1:1 game. If iremember you need lost of housed in tens rather than up to tem. Even in MG to which is for somewhat bigger games a vilage is not considered playable with less than 20 houses (why we created fold flat buildings). However you can do it using cerial packets. At 1 to 1 you do need a lot of terrain. What sort of terrain had you in mind when you lanched the question?

Final Combat is played at a ground scale that matches figure scale. I've played it at 1" to 1 yd with 1/35 figures. That was on a very detailed board with a small section of a village represented. However only 6 figures a side. It is great fun, but that sort of setup not feasible for most people.