"Vimiero Scenario" Topic

Hi all,

This year I have been building the forces and working up to stage the full battle of Vimiero at a scale of about 1:30 in 18mm. The figure collection is complete all bar a few commanders and I can almost here the little warriors singing in the tin "Vive L'Emperuer, en avant!" whilst from the other, its more like "Boney was a Frenchman Aye Aye Aye!"

As you can see, I am now putting the final touches to the terrain.

If you would like to know more, just follow the link to JJ's

jjwargames.blogspot.co.uk

Jonathan

Hello Jonathan!

Excellent looking terrain and figures. Looking forward to seeing some pictures of the actual game. Oddly enough we will be playing the same battle in October in 6mm. Every unit will be on the table which is 5' x 9'. We use a terrain mat with the hills placed under it. Our club is very old as well, in our 48th year, located in Toronto, Canada. Formally called the "Napoleonic Miniatures Wargame Society of Toronto", now the "Miniature Brigade".

Best regards,

Glenn

Hi Glenn,

Thank you, I look forward to seeing your take on this battle and my regards to the "Miniature Brigade". I have family in Canada and visited Toronto on our honeymoon. It's a lovely city, and Canada is a great part of the world to live.

Cheers

Jonathan

Great looking table! Richard

Looks excellent

I think your table looks great and I hope you can post some photos of the action! Thanks

John Miller

Jonathan

Looks great. Follow your blog. Like Glenn we are running the same scenario in October with our local club near Hagerstown MD.

I will try and mimic your set up. Using C&G as our rule set.

Are your buildings from paper terrain?

Adam

Hi Adam,

Thank you, they say imitation is the sincerest form of flattery. I hope like Glenn you will report back on the game. I'm really keen to put together a set of scenarios that work and capture the history, and the more play tests and feedback help in the process.

The buildings are from Rusus and they are a 15mm Mediterranean range made from a plaster. As always, I put links up for the products I use and I did a review in an earlier post, but the last time I checked the site was down and so I'm not sure if they are still avaiable. Perhaps someone might know the answer to that. I will need more buildings next year to do my planned Oporto game and I am talking to various MDF producers about putting together a generic range of Mediterranean buildings, which I think would have a good market.

Jonathan

Thanks all, for the kind comments. Yes I will be posting an AAR for each game. The best way to follow the progress is to follow the blog where I tend to post a couple of topics each week.

My focus going into 2014 is very much on the Peninsular War and Wellington's battles in particular, with 18mm my preferred scale. After Vimiero, I will follow the sequence of events, Corunna, Oporto, Talavera, Albuera, Fuentes and so on. I have skeleton scenarios planned for these already and the collection will grow as I move from one to the other.

I'm really keen to have a conversation as I'm doing this so if it's your "bag" please sign up and join in the banter.

Jonathan

Excellent, thanks!

Very Nice!

Lovely looking table JJ – what have used for the board is it modelled or terrain mat and if mat where did you buy it from? Thank you.

Hi Marcus M ,
Thank you, the table is using a terrain mat from Terrain Mat

terrainmat.com

There is a post on the blog that shows how the table was put together, but simply, there is an inner frame that pulls the mat taught to keep it close to the styrene slopes underneath.

Hello Jonathan!

We use a mat as well from the Terrain Guy in the US. It's very nice but just a little too thick and does not seem to drape as well as your mat. Is your mat very thin and light so it drapes very easy with very few wrinkles? It looks like it is.

Thanks!

Glenn

Hi Glenn,

Yeah I know what you mean. That was part of the reason I designed the table, so that it would hold any mat I was using taught to the terrain underneath. The use of styrene as a base also means I can pin surface terrain in place and get a neater look. So, for instance, when I put the river in through Vimiero village and around the back of the hill I will pin it in next to the road to make it sit in the valley rather than on it. Well that's the plan.

Hello Jonathan!

Don't know if your aware or not but a fellow in the US uses those interlocking rubber tiles you see in some stores about one inch thick. I think their used as play mats for kids or flooring in some garages. This is the base level of his table and in some cases he will layer the tiles for a gradual elevation. He then places towels wrapped very tightly on top for higher plateaus. Puts his mat on top and then uses the pins to secure it and flatten any unwanted wrinkles. The pins stick in the rubber tiles and seem to hold reasonably well. Another fellow told me he does the same thing except uses double sided tape instead of pins. I've not tried this yet but it sounds like a good idea. It avoids having to try and reshape the styrene for every game. So far I've just used my old hills under the mat but I think I will try out these ideas as I do need to be able to shape the mat a little better and flatten it in certain areas. It's certainly on my to do list.

Best regards,

Glenn

carojon: I went on you site to check out your Junot and was glad to see the figure is as flamboyant as his namesake! Great job. John Miller

Glenn,
yes I had seen that system, along with others. The beauty of the frame and mat is that you can pretty well put most things under it and lock down tight. I am still playing with the system and went for styrene this time to pull the game together now. I will be trying out other ideas as I go. The river assault for Oporto will be an interesting challenge! Stay tuned for how it goes
Jonathan

Hi John,
Thank you, scratch builds are always fun to do and I'm looking forward to seeing him amongst the troops.
Cheers
Jonathan

Thank you Jonathan for the info. It has been a dilemma of some magnitude as to what my next gaming table should look like?! Currently I have around 20+ 2 x 2 foot flocked terrain tiles on a 8 (can be scaled up to 14ft by 6ft), but they are bulky and hard to place away safely without corners getting damaged etc.

Your use of the terrain-mat is convincing me the mat is the way to go….but….What do you use for the hills and ridges under the mat? And what are your thoughts about rivers and streams via the terrain mat? As the set-up above looks very realistic….

Many thanks

Hello Jonathan and Adam!

My table for my 6mm is 5' x 9' a raised ping pong table. All my units are roughly battalions or cavalry regiments all on bases of 60mm x 30mm. What is the size of your tables and the foot print of your 18mm units in line?

Best regards,

Glenn

For this particular table I am using styrene sculpts under the cloth to make the hills. I will be modelling the Maciera river using roofing felt with flock and painted, more pictures to follow.

My table is also a 9 x 5 ping pong table. My units are based as per Napoleon at War with a 25mm x 30mm bases for the infantry or a 6 base battalion is about 6 inches wide in line which in Carnage & Glory would equate to a 720 man unit. A cavalry unit is 12 figures on 4 x 45mm x 40mm bases equating to a unit about 360 men. I will post when we run the game so you will see how the units look against the terrain.

Hi Glenn,

We use a series of fold up tables so ours can run 5x12 or up to 5x18. 5x18 are fun when we do battles like Salamanca. Covering the table we use a series of cloth with styrene under it along with all the little extra terrain stuff. I use paper terrain houses to create my villages.

Basing is pretty similar to Jonathans. I sometimes run a 4 base regiment.

Adam

Hello JJ & Adam!

Thanks for the update. Very interesting this scale thing. It seems that roughly speaking my figures and basing are 1/3 smaller then yours, but we have similar playing areas except Adam can extend his length. So excluding Adams options my playing surface is 66% bigger then yours. This will allow me to have more of the actual battlefield on my table and space the formations out more and or further apart. So apparently the dynamics of my game will be completely different from yours. While yours could be very similar.

I'm planning on playing this battle twice. Once next week and again in November. The first game is an attempt to follow the battle as closely as possible. The troops are committed to their historical positions and the French must make the same attacks, etc. The following game will be closer to JJ's, a sort of "what if" game where the players get to deploy the units on the table. Both should be exciting games, but completely different as it appears your games will be as well.

JJ I note on your map you have a river running from 2-4 to 2-9 but don't show the "Toledo Brook" which would be from 3-3 to 5-4, I think. Anyway my table will not have your river, but I will have the brook. So apart from our scale difference the layout of the rivers/brooks will also be different.

Do you guys have dates for your games yet?

Best regards,

Glenn

Adam, if you are planning to use my scenario, I will be posting an update after the first game with a few changes to the original PDF. In addition I will post some background thoughts on the terrain and effects. I will also be using reduced strength units for the British to take account of their reduced frontage. Several of the British battalions will be on five bases with the poor old 20th Foot who lost a couple of companies in the landings down to four.

Glenn, the terrain details were taken from "Great Battles of History Refought – Wellesley's First Portuguese Campaign by Richard Partridge and Mike Oliver.", where they highlight the River Maciera as being the only real water obstacle of significance. I am rating it as fordable to infantry and cavalry, but guns will need to use the bridges. Having walked the battlefield in August, a few years ago, I have to say that seemed reasonable as all the other water courses at that time of year seemed dry as a bone.

I am sorting out my river and remaining bridge this week then will be contacting the chaps to get some preferred dates. I am aiming to do two games one in October and November.

Cheers guys
Jonathan

Glenn,

Looking at doing my game the last weekend in October. Just waiting on the guys to confirm. I'm going to run mine from a "what if" perspective. I'm planning on working through all the peninsula battles and keeping a sort of score sheet.

I'm planning on starting a 6mm ACW project around Christmas. Mostly Baccus figures. Like you stated in your post about scale, I'm really interested in being able use smaller figures and expand the battlefield.

I'm interested to hear how your game goes.

Adam

Jonathan,

Thanks for the heads up. I'll keep an eye on your blog and make some adjustments based on what you post.

Looking forward to seeing how your game and Glenn's games go.

Adam

Hello JJ & Adam!

Thanks for the info about the rivers, etc. I was perplexed as my sources made no mention of them. Probably since they weren't really an issue during the fighting. Nothing like having boots on the ground. Sounds like you had a very interesting trip.

The other issue I'm torn over is the actual ground. The few pictures I've seen don't indicate it's too bad, just kind of barren. There does not seem to be any mention of it being a problem in anything I've read, but I've noticed you have made it difficult for cavalry to charge. Could you elaborate on what the actual ground looked like to you?

Adam, I've being doing 6mm for about 40 years now. Baccus is the best and I exclusively use their figures for about 8 years. Painting them is a joy, before Baccus all painting in all scales seemed like a chore. Now I can't wait to paint the next batch. Their ACW line is amazing and very quick to paint, even the guys with the beards and different hats. We just started into ACW this year and one fellow in our group already has most of the units for Gettysburg.

We did Albuera twice and were in awe seeing every battalion on the table. It's really amazing seeing how well 6mm just makes the maps in the books jump out at you in full 3D.

Just one word of caution, 6mm is the drug of miniature wargaming and nobody supplies you better then Baccus. If I can help you at all in 6mm just drop me a line at glennrpearce@hotmail.com

Best regards,

Glenn

Wellesley was very aware of his weakness in cavalry so as always chose his ground carefully. The valleys are described as open ground, quite suitable for cavalry movements. The ridges less so with small enclosures, broken rocky ground, dotted with cork groves and vineyards. Indeed the rear slope of the western ridge was very sheer and rocky. Thus the terrain forced the French to fight an infantry battle

Glenn,

I'm feeling the 6mm drug already. I'll shoot you an email soon with a few questions.

Thanks

Adam

Hello JJ!

Thanks for the details on the terrain. Think I can now set up the rules to cover it.

I'm organizing the French o/b a little different from yours. As far as I can determine the artillery and cavalry were all split off to support the various infantry brigades. So I'm assigning them in the same fashion. The grenadiers won't get any artillery and only one unit of cavalry for their Division. Can't trace an actual unit being attached to them, but I only have one left over. If nothing else it will certainly give the French commanders all the elements of combined arms. Will they know how to use them properly together for maximum effect? We will certainly find out. Also, how will the British players respond? This will be a very, very interesting game.

Only 5 days left and counting!

Best regards,

Glenn

We did it and everyone had a great time. I forced the players to adhere to the actual battle as closely as possible. The French pincer attack on Vimerio Hill was repulsed, as were both attacks on the Eastern Ridge. The grenadier attack also failed. The French clearly thought that they had a fair chance of winning the game if played again. I'm not so sure, but it would be interesting to play it again.

It will certainly be very interesting to see what happens next month when we play our "what if" game.

Nice looking layout.

It's a trifle, but isn't "Vimiero" spelled "Vimeiro?"

Bob Coggins

I've refought Vimiero several times with a variety of rules, and I've never seen a French win. I've never seen them even come close.
I don't think the historical scenario can be won by the French. Of course, if you change things around a bit, it could be a well balanced game.

Excellent scenario!!

I've refought Vimiero several times with a variety of rules, and I've never seen a French win. I've never seen them even come close.
I don't think the historical scenario can be won by the French. Of course, if you change things around a bit, it could be a well balanced game.

Same for me – the task Junot set himself was just too difficult for the forces at hand. In my current campaign there is about to be a battle very closely resembling this one, but in this case Junot has left a much smaller force in Lisbon and there has been no equivalent of Rolica, so perhaps with the French a bit stronger this battle will prove more even.

Regards

There are various ways to balance the scenario.

Allow the French flanking force to come on behind the British ridge position.

Deploy part of the British force off-table 'in reserve' with a dice roll to enter

Give the French more cavalry.

I just finished riding over the battlefield again (in my basement) and think the French player who thought he had a fair chance of taking Vimeiro Hill is dreaming. He launched anywhere from 4 to 8 separate attacks and destroyed 4 brigades (2 of them grenadiers). The British are down a few battalions, but still holding strong. He thought he lost a couple of the attacks just due to bad luck. Although luck certainly plays a big part in our games I think there is more substance then luck in most rule systems and ours is no exception. Even if the French had won 1 or 2 of their attacks that still does not mean that they would have been able to clear the hill. So perhaps some day we will play this battle again to see if any French success on the hill can change the battle. It will certainly be interesting to see them try again.

On the eastern ridge the French did pretty good. Solignac did heavy damage to the British before his brigade collapsed. Brenier was not doing too badly either with his assault. He had managed to push the British back to Crawfords line before being told by Junot to fall back.

It was clear in this game that Junot's evolving battle plan was not a good one. Splitting up his forces and encouraging isolated attacks was never going to work (IMHO). But that's with my advantage of hindsight. I think he was actually not too far off from using a successful French formula for winning battles. It's just that nobody told him that the British had changed the game.

So it's with great interest to see how our next game will play out. The o/b's will stay exactly the same. Both sides will commit to a deployment on a map. I will then allow any practical changes based on what they could have reasonably observed. I will then actually place the figures on the table and let the game begin! Can Junot win? I still don't think so, but it will be a blast seeing the French try.

Glenn,

Would the French have more chance with another division or two more brigades in your game?

After reading your after action report I am tempted to try an alternative scenario and add more French troops to see how many it would take to achieve victory when we play this at the end of the month.

I'll probably wait to see JJs results and adjustments but I am pretty sure our results will be similar to yours if I don't adjust the scenario some. Just not sure how much to add in French forces.

Thoughts?

Adam

Hello Adam!

Difficult question. In my game the starting numbers are against the French some 14,000 to 19,000 British/Allies, but three British brigades were not allowed to be used. The French were also forced to make piecemeal attacks and the British had some terrain advantage. So in my game both sides were forced to play as close to history as possible which I think clearly doomed the French.

It does seem to me that if those same three British brigades are taken out of the battle and both sides are given the freedom to deploy and attack where they want then the French certainly have a better chance. However, the British still hold the terrain advantage. I think that's still enough for them to win.

If you allow the British to use their full force and give the French another Division then the British still have the terrain advantage.

So either way certainly helps the French, but as in most situations if the attacker does not have a sizeable advantage it's often very hard to overcome a defender holding ground that gives him an edge.

For the French to have a good chance at winning you might have to double their force.

We play only historical games and to level the playing field normally we do it slightly differently then what we did this time. Normally we deploy the forces as close as possible, but let the players then do whatever they want.
We put a time limit on the game and track moral and casualties. The side that has caused the greatest amount of casualties and moral loss when the clock stops wins. It's not uncommon that if the game continued there would be a different winner. It makes for a very intense game as both sides are trying to do as much damage as possible before the clock stops. The important thing is it allows us to play any historical battle no matter how one sided it may have been.

Hope this helped.

Best regards,

Glenn

Hi Glenn,

I see your point. Using C&G, it calculates the morale and casualties too. I will probably just stick to a close historical battle, maybe let the guys position their troops. I'll see what we are in the mood for. It's just another case of those darn British making it almost impossible for the Imperial armies to gain any advantage!

Thanks for the thoughts.

Adam

Just finished our second go at Vimeiro a more "what if' scenario then last time.

Interestingly the British set up was not very different from their historical version. Sort of gives Wellington the nod that his positions were sound.

The French on the other hand put all of Delaborde's Division and a brigade of Grenadiers (St. Clair) on the Eastern Ridge outside of Ventosa. Maransin was midway between Ventosa and Toledo. Solignac at Toledo and Charlot was on the other side of the Toledo Brook.

The French plan was simply to push forward on all fronts and take out the second rate British troops. Once Wellington could clearly see the French dispositions, he shifted his forces to try and strike the French wherever they looked like they might overextend themselves.

The first French attacks were highly successful and pushed the British back to the point that by turn 5 the British were thinking of retreating. Facing defeat the British decided to make a number of small counterattacks. It proved decisive. The French offensive now stalled and was rolled back in most areas. By the end of turn 10 the French were in bad shape and admitted defeat.

Both sides thought they played a pretty tight game and that the shift in fortunes was mostly due to luck. I agreed to a point, as I thought if the French had supported their early success (no easy feat) they had a very strong chance of stopping the British counterattack's and carrying the day. Also not to lose sight of the fact that the British did respond by moving forces into the areas where the French could be overwhelmed.

Interesting as my original thoughts from the first game were that the French had no real chance of winning. This game proved that given a good plan, executed well and a little bit of lady luck, the French do have a chance to win this GAME. Still it's no simple task, and as a gambler I would never bet on the French winning.

The fall out from the game, the players loved it, and want to play it again next month, but with a different mix of players simply to see how others will fair in this very interesting GAME. I agreed, as even as an observer I found it to be fascinating just watching the ebb and flow of battle, and how it could turn at any moment. Truly a testament of just how satisfying our present rule system is. It's a Polemos rule set under development for North American Wars 1754-1815, but we use it for all horse and musket periods as our house rules to test them out.

So next month, VIMEIRO – Round 3!!

Hi Glenn!

Sounds like a great game. Interestingly enough I ran an almost identical scenario with almost the same results. My British player did not counter attack and the French won the battle. I used Carnage and Glory so at the end casualties on both sides were around 2000, but the French had captured the villages and crushed the right of the British line. It was a fun game but we concluded the result was due more to tactics than anything else.

Adam

Awesome. I liked the link.