"Stormtroopers versus rebel troopers" Topic

If you were to lay down some stats for simple skirmish wargame between generic stormtroopers and rebel troopers, what advantages (if any) would you give either side?

For example, would you give stormtroopers some kind of *defensive bonus* for their armour, even though it appears pretty ineffective in the films? (Ineffective, at least in that it does not seem to prevent the wearer from being incapacitated by shots from military-grade weaponry.)

In terms of firepower, assuming that both classes of trooper use similar weaponry, would you grant rebel troopers a bonus for *accuracy* or simply make both sides fairly even in this regard?

Would you make the rebel trooper a *better trained soldier* � in terms of using cover, or benefitting from leadership, for example?

I tend to visualise this kind of clash in terms of superior quality (rebels) versus numbers (stormtroopers).

Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated!

Cheers!
Redcoat

I would have thought that the stormtroopers would generally be better trained and more numerous than the rebels. Now you might want to give them some sort of "heedless" rule where they need some sort of test to stay behind cover in some circumstances but overall I'd guess they were better than rebel troops in every way.

Except the armour. That wouldn't even really help them in close combat.

Well, the movie quotes are useless, e.g. the accuracy of stormtrooper blaster fire, as demonstrated later in the movie, when they can barely hit the Millenium Falcon, or the near side of a moon, with their weapons.

So, I'd say you pretty much have free reign to design the game to fit your needs.

If it were me, and based upon the taking of the blockade runner, I'd give the Imperials a bit of an advantage in firing, and a 2x – 3x advantage in saving throws, assuming you use those, for their full armor (notwithstanding those shots that do get through). Say rebels get a save on only a 6 on a 1D6, and the Stormies get a save on a 4 – 6 for their battle armor.

Then, give the rebels 2x – 3x the troops, or so, just to try to make it a reasonably fair fight, along with some cover saves, when they fight on the defensive.

At best, I'd permit the rebels to be equal to the stormies in terms of firing weapons, though they should probably not be quite as skilled, unless you assume many are ex-military types.

I agree with Pictors. Stormtroopers should be more numerous, better trained and with access to better equipment.

I think their armour should possibly give them some marginally better degree of protection than rebels though. Not much, since we've seen that it's not very effective against blaster fire, but it may turn the occasional killing shot into a wounding one. I remember reading in some official sourcebook that stormtrooper 'armour' was intended more as an environmental suit anyway (probably written as an excuse for its poor defensive performance in the movies!).

The two areas where I see rebels having an advantage are:

1) morale, since they're fighting for a cause rather than a salary. Okay, maybe I'm doing a disservice to the more dedicated soldiers of the Empire, but I still think the rebels have the edge in this respect.

2) access to exceptional individuals with the freedom to exercise their unique skills, as opposed to the regulated rank and file of the Imperial war machine.

As the Rebels are not slowed down by armour, perhaps some sort of movement/agility bonus as well?

While I think Stormtroopers were trained to walk down hallways in column I don't think they can claim to be better trained when it comes to combat. I believe the rebels have them beat on that one.

So Stormtroopers should be more numerous and have better equipment for sure. They outnumber the rebels and have better equipment and they know how to use it, but do they use it well? Not so sure. Kind of like the Jordanians in the 1967 war.

I mean come on, the Imperials had to land 7 AT-ATs on Hoth to take out one power generator and they couldn't even do that efficiently! They did it but it sure cost them.

As the premise is that the stormtroopers are highly trained and well equipped regulars, then I think they should have a bonus in saving throws and as well as for firing

The Rebs should be more variable – some will be as Parmenion noted will be highly motivated and should have better morale factors, and some may be very well equipped, while others might be less well motivated and poorly equipped – for a game setting, perhaps some of the Rebel troops should have random morale determined the first time the rubber hits the road (or the blasters start to play)

If I remember correctly (and I may not be) from the West End Games Star Wars Source Book. Stormtrooper Power Armor gave one or two degrees better protection then the flak jackets that most Rebel troopers wore. But it's main features were it increased the wearer's strength to the next level and it was a self contained environmental suit. So a TIE pilot could survive bailing out of his fighter or a Snowtrooper could wander around Hoth for a certain length of time.
It always seemed that many Rebels were veteran ex-Imperials or the personal retainers of some Rebel agent. So it's not hard to believe that they would have training equal to or better then the average Stormtrooper.
I would and have gamed it, that the Rebels are better skilled shooters and make better use of cover. While Imperials have an increased chance of surviving a hit. Also Imperials have access to "better toys". So they are more likely to have heavier weapons or armored support (generally of the walking variety).

I think rebel specforce would be better trained than stormtroopers, like the wilderness troopers at Echo Base, but regular rebel fleet troopers? Nah, I still don't buy it.

IMHO, if you're not making some attempt to simulate the movies and books then you aren't really playing Star Wars regardless of how well the game actually plays.

Did we ever see stormtroopers engage in hand to hand combat? I'll admit to seeing all the movies as well as reading the novelizations along with a couple of novels, but I don't remember then doing so.

As far as shooting, it seems to me that they were all equally bad. Of course they had to be. It wouldn't have been much of a space western if every computer guided shot hit it's mark. To me it actully seemed like an homage to the old B westerns with their fifty shot six-shooters.

The Rebels and Empire seemed to be pretty well matched man-to-man. As far as the Stormtroopers being well trained, I don't think that they were. In the Clone Wars, the clone troopers were well trained. My impression of the movies, however and the era of the rebellion is that the ranks of stormtroopers were filled out with humans pressed into service. That's just an impression mind you, prehaps some with more knowledge of the SW universe can confirm or deny.

The bottom line is that the movies were intended to be a western shoot-em-up in space (thus spake Lucas). To be true to the ideals, use any stats that would preserve a spaghetti western feel.

This is a good video for a guide to Imperial ground operations.

YouTube link

This is also a project that has been on my back burner for years. I want to use the old Wizards of the Coast painted minis. I will most likely give the edge to Stormtroopers, but they will have command control issues (ie: not too far from leader, no advance if leader KIA).

Also, a bit of better protection. The armor must do something?

The movies are worthless in my view as in the first one the Stormtroopers are praised when shooting up the Jawa landcrawler and boarding the transport ship, but later can't hit any thing.

My impression is that the Stormtroopers had a rep as the fist of the Empire. That doesn't mean they were elites. They were fanatically loyal to the Emperor though. Rebels did have higher motivation. Experience would likely vary. Spec Forces for them would be better quality.

Clones were the first Stormtroopers. This is likely were their TOUGH rep started. However, they were mostly gone by the time of Luke and friends.

Just watch the movies as Rebel propaganda films remade after the War's end.

Thanks,

John

Just watch the movies as Rebel propaganda films remade after the War's end.

Haha, great point- it depends if you treat the movies as documentaries or 'based on a true story'. Based purely on their movie performance the Stormtroopers are pretty dire; they'd rate 'worse' than the Rebels in every area other than raw firepower.

If you're treating the movies as a fictionalized retelling of the events and trying to do something more 'real', then I'd consider the following:
1. Armor: Yes, that Stormtrooper armor should count for something!
2. Shooting: marksmanship can be a toss up- if you want the Rebels to be better trained in that regard that's fine, or they can be on par with the Imperials.
3. In regards to cover and leadership, I'd mark it down to doctrine rather than better training. The Imperials have a fairly rigid command structure and are taught to trust in their armor, while the Rebels have a flexible command structure and make better use of local terrain (plus probably have higher motivation, per John). Not so much quantity vs. quality but rigid vs. flexible doctrine.

Some of this is colored by my side project to do some games based on Freedom in the Galaxy though.

-Will

I'd do it with characters. Stormtrooper has it all: number, firepower and armor. Rebels are generally bad, but they have amazing single characters. This character can fight alone or greatly enhance one of Rebel squads.

Also, Rebel victory condition should be scenario based while Empire's should be straightforward, destruction of as many Rebels as possible.

I think the Stormtroopers shouldn't be completely discounted as worthless, nor their armor. Sure, they have trouble hitting the heroes, but I see that as more of a plot device rather than a statement about the stormtrooper's training and skill. In all three movies, we see rank and file Rebel troops getting shot up by the stormtroopers (even the elite Rebel commandos on Endor get shot up pretty badly). I just imagine the Rebel heroes all have some crazy bonuses to their saving rolls.

I have been mulling over a Star Wars campaign too and have been pondering the same issue as the OP. I will definitely give the stormtroopers a slight armor advantage over the Rebels, and some will have superior training (I imagine the 501st would still be elite compared to other rank and file troopers). On the other hand, I think I will give the Rebels generally better experience and morale, as well as some sort of bonus for using cover effecctively. Additionally, I think I will likely give some sort of additional penalty to stormtroopers being shot at out of cover, as those shiny white suits sure do make nice targets!

Ok, this is not my area of expertise but…

Imperial stormtrooper armour increases the ability to survive a military ricochet or a civilian pistol shot, and acts as a badge that says "you shoot me, and the whole of the imperial military will hunt you down… and kill you!" it must include limited protection from gas and smoke, and against partial decompression, and low oxygen environments. It has built in communication and goggles to protect against flash damage. It doesn't protect against a full military weapon discharge at full power at short range, and probably new versions of the armour are not as good as the armour used twenty years ago (weapons have outpaced armour developments, or civilian contractors have provided "meets specification" armour.

Morale and training of the individual trooper is low – I assume if you excel you can get into flight school, the imperial navy, officer candidate school, but if you are faced with being skill-less and either drawing the imperial dole or joining up you probably join up (or even get drafted?). The weapons skill exhibited against the Jawa Crawler – would indicate that training is probably against unmoving/slow moving targets, as the weapon shots were accurate. However I would assume, that most Stormtroopers very rarely undergo any live firing training after basic. Troopers are drilled to line up and fire – volume is stressed, rather than fire and movement. Covering fire is used, and so is supporting Heavy weapons.

Operators of armoured vehicles and ground transports do not work well in joint operations, relying on inflexible pre planned operations. Diversions from plans and showing local initiative are frowned upon.

(Should I post a similar study of rebel forces?)

(Should I post a similar study of rebel forces?)

Please do, I like your take on the subject matter!

-Will

Sounds like the Stormtroopers are late war Soviets. I guess that makes the rebels……

I see the stormtrooper armour as a uniform rather than actual armour. There are no scenes of shots ricocheting off it in any of the films so I would give them the same basic save as the rebels. As others have mentioned it seems to be more of an enviroment suit than anything.

I'd penalize the Stormies firing from long range (whatever rules you use dictate), maybe remove the penalty when in close range (again dictated by your rules).

I'd penalize the Stormies movement rate, not drastically, but make them a bit slower.

I'd give the Stormies a bonus for their armor, true it might not have been effective in the movies, but whose to say that the Rebels hadn't learned to aim for the weak spots..etc…by the time frame dictated in the movies?

Quality or morale, I'd probably make them of equal quality and morale. Stormtroopers are motivated by fear (Vader is ruthless after all) and are trained, and Rebels have a cause they believe in and are possibly trained by former members of the Empire or Alliance military personnel who've had some form of training(they had good pilots for the most part)..etc…..I think this balances out in my opinion.

The only Stormtroopers I saw in hand-to-hand were brief…Episode V mostly involved Chewie tossing a couple of them around, and in Episode VI they got jumped by Ewoks and some of the Commandos…it looked to me like the armor worked against them in those instances (perhaps another penalty?…nah…it balances out with fighting against an un-armored opponent probably). I don't recall much hand-to-hand in Episode IV, not counting lightsaber combat…etc…

Again, just my thoughts on it…

I believe in the EU, Storm Troopers ARE the Elites of the empire

But saying EU will no doubt spark some flames

As for hand to hand…

Very much like the following:

1. rebels move faster (no armour);
2. rebels shoot more accurately (better weapons training);
3. rebels use cover more effectively (better small-unit tactics training);
4. rebel leadership is better (i.e., command bonus would apply to troops over a larger command radius);
5. stormtroopers have a significant advantage in terms of numbers (just as in the space battles, where it's strictly rebel quality versus imperial quantity);
6. stormtroopers have a 'fanaticism' advantage (do not rout; advance more fearlessly into combat; have an advantage in close-range combat) to reflect imperial *brain-washing or cloning* (picture US Marines being charged by Banzai-shrieking Japanese in the Pacific) and the *armour* (which might allow them to survive wounds that rebels might not).

Rebel troopers.

Fanatically loyal to their cause. Tactics emphasise defend and counterattack, ambush, and sniping.

Most are either old, and have veteran experience of the army before it was weighed down with corruption, or are young and idealistic. Command structure promotes independent action, demonstrations of bravery and taking initiative.

Weapons training shows some evidence of accurate short/medium range controlled firing, picking targets, and the use of available cover. There is some evidence for longer range fire, which can be effective against the stormtroopers human wave tactics. The ability to hit weak spots in support vehicles and to adapt and overcome using deception, subterfuge, and the recruitment and involvement of indigenous forces make them a field force to be reckoned with.

Although the armour worn by most troopers is not as capable as the "badge of Empire" it has the advantage of camouflage, and the ability to be swiftly discarded when an individual needs to blend into the population. The helmets sometimes worn do not have the same capabilities as the advanced stormtrooper helmets, but provides some protection against ballistic shrapnel, and against concussive force when falling from moving speeders. The armour as a whole is not suitable against the close range volleys delivered by imperials en masse.

Support between forces is very good as a norm, but since the rebel forces are usually stretched thin they do not have the obvious rigidity in rank structures that sometimes inhibit effective imperial operations. Rebel forces may be forced to double up as gunners on spaceships as well as act as regular infantry troopers, this as a result forges a stronger collaborative ethos on combined arms operations.

The rebels also place a high value on hit and run, and psy-ops, and the value of diplomatic protection to courier information through imperial blockades. Because of some brave operatives, much of the most highly valued imperial information has been intercepted, and teams of planners can ready pin point strikes to interfere with long term imperial gains.

Is this kind of OK?

Both sides should be capable of missing (deliberately or accidentally) two 'droids crossing a narrow corridor in the midst of a fire fight at close range.

6. stormtroopers have a 'fanaticism' advantage (do not rout; advance more fearlessly into combat; have an advantage in close-range combat)

Nope, can't go with this. In the very first film, a clearly superior squad of stormtroopers routed at the charge of a single, unarmored fugitive, while inside an Imperial fortress.

So, they'll break on a whim.

However, they should get a "massive superiority" rally bonus, as that same group turned and re-engaged the charging enemy after coming upon another squad. Preferred odds seem to range from 8:1 to 10:1. Or maybe the new squad had a decent officer/noncom.

As Tinyminis notes, the old West End Games Star Wars game and sourcebooks covered this territory very well, and most of them go for under $15 USD on Ebay. Probably not something you want to invest in for a one-off game, though.

I would explain storm troopers inability to hit the heroes as all heroes have at least a very minor degree of force sensitivity (but they often think it's luck). They literally will the shots away. The reverse is also true: the heroes literally will their shots towards the target.

In short, don't look at anything between heroes and mooks as being indicative of how mook on mook battles will shape up.

@gamerorpaint: I like that use of "unaware Force Sensitivity" in hero characters as justification. Very clever, and fits the setting perfectly (it also explains why Darth Vader has almost no apparent fear of striding, fully erect, directly towards a firefight… he knows that he won't be hit by the "weak-minded.")

Anyone ever notice the 'gas-mask' canister they all carry on the back of their belts?

I've always assumed SW stormtroopers are based on the real thing in WWI, in which case they do constitute an elite – better armed and trained, dedicated to swift assaults (c'mon that's what the word 'stormtrooper' means!).

The fact that they can't hit hero types has been discussed, remember that rebel troopers trying to shoot Vader wouldn't do any better! Also, Luke was hit by a Jabba mook's lucky shot in Episode VI (who was instantly cut down).

I tend to go along with the West End stuff that made it clear that only 10% or so of Imperial troops are stormtroopers – in most battles you would be fighting regular Army – lower morale, training, etc.

Given that the rebellion�@probably has components from the armies from hundreds of different worlds and that each of those world could have dozens of different armies (look at our own plant); I`d say the rebels can be represented by just about anything at any level of competancy.

The Imperials should be more generic in terms of equipment and a basic training standard.

How about Stormtroopers must always be the attackers?

From what I remember, the stormtroopers never really used cover in the way the rebels did. Just pushed forward. Kind of a modern WWII Soviet human wave?

If you read the two (slightly long) post I made above, you will see that I have tried to sum basically all we can tell from the movies – with a few assumptions.

I would like to know if anyone can poke holes in what I have written, based on what I have seen from the only historical documents that are allegedly true "iv – vi imperial era"

I did approach it with the same rigorous historical eye that I would have approached any historical topic… such as the riding styles of Assyrian horseman (!)

"stormtroopers…do not rout" Nope, can't go with this. In the very first film, a clearly superior squad of stormtroopers routed at the charge of a single, unarmored fugitive, while inside an Imperial fortress. So, they'll break on a whim.

Good point � but did that short rout have more to do with the fact that the stormtrooper squad in question was *badly surprised* � i.e. the circumstances of the rout were very unusual?

Essentially, a shrieking lunatic (accompanied at least at first by a huge, growling walking carpet "thing") came careening totally unexpectedly round the corner of a corridor in what was supposed to be the most impregnable military base in the galaxy, and blasted the officer at the head of the shocked squad (if I remember the incident correctly). What soldiers in history might not similarly have panicked, if only temporarily?

I think Ghurkhas would have been eating roasted wookie if they had been there.

One too many h's there.

Regarding the *loyalty* issue, are stormtroopers supposed to be *invasively 'brainwashed'* in some way (I remember a disturbing image � in a West End volume? � of Vader passing a rank of stormtroopers at attention, shown from behind, with their helmets removed and with visible scars along their hairless heads); or *pre-programmed* (i.e., as the clones were programmed with Order 66); or merely *well indoctrinated* by imperial propaganda? Or is it a mix of all three, depending on the origins of the individuals � whether clones or conscripts?

Anyone noticed how Stormtroopers *sound* relatively 'normal' individuals in SW, in terms of voices and dialogue. In the few times they speak in TESB and RotJ their voices are distinctly 'harsher'.

That is a big question mark in the SWU. The recent FFG RPG implies that although they all started as clones, by the time of the classic trilogy they had been supplemented by 'normal' humans.

I would say they're not surgically altered, but are 'hooked in' to the dark side (at its peak during the Empire), even if they don't know it (a point made in the Zahn books).

Anyone noticed how Stormtroopers *sound* relatively 'normal' individuals in SW, in terms of voices and dialogue. In the few times they speak in TESB and RotJ their voices are distinctly 'harsher'.

There's probably a mix of sources. Cloned troopers are the front line troops. The Stormtroopers are all front line members of a dedicated rebel hunting task force.

The Stormtroopers we see on the Death Star likely aren't front liners and thus aren't clones. The Death Star is built to intimidate or blow up planets, so the hoard of Troopers we see really are just garrison troops intended to be dropped on a planet if it submits. Well trained, but not clones. In fact, many may actually be in initial training. (there's your reason why a group gets chased by a single man pretending to be many).

Same for the troopers that board the Tantive IV and perform the search on Tatooine. The ISDs were likely not carrying elite clones, just normal humans.

Clones were gone by the time of the Empire. They had a shortened lifespan due to the speed of cloning.

In the end, it's mainly about figuring out the key to balancing the game for a playable experience.

Sounds like a lot of ideas floating around out there, some completely different, some very similar.

For me, it's also easier to come up with "fluff" rules(read exceptions) when I know what set of rules is in use…although I may have missed that in a prior post, apologies if that's the case.

If you really want to play to the Stormtroopers' strength, your system would have to have morale rules:

A Stormtrooper on his own might be an 'above-average' soldier, personally fearless (except when a handsome smuggler yells at them), and decently protected against shrapnel-NBC-and the like.

But an army of stormtroopers landing on a planet – that's the way the Empire says 'That's it – you're done!'

Any group of local farmers, or a even a small private army, is going to rethink their life decisions when they realize the Empire has now decided play time is over. Living under the Empire isn't all bad, after all…

The Rebel Alliance is the exception in that it is comprised of beings who have pretty much left home to fight a galaxy-spanning war, no matter the personal cost.

It's not that the rebels are particularly good soldiers (I am sure they run the gamut from bad to elite), it's that they are the ONLY ones willing to make a concerted stand against the Empire.

If you wanted a comprehensive game (maybe a little more realistic than the movies), most battles would have the Empire vs some Rebel Alliance troops leading local populations.

Depending on the situation of why the battle is being fought (is the Empire there to exterminate the population, or are they threatening a 6% tax increase), the local troops might fight to the death with the Rebels, or break and surrender after they start to take casualties.

You do realize that the reference sited about new clones being used during the Galactic Civil War was based on the video game Battlefront II. I am not aware of any 'official' mentions of mass scale cloning for Stormtroopers during the Imperial period. I am aware of the books discussing a cloning site where the mad Emperor clone was created. But nothing else that I can recall. Personally, I'd just like better support than that given in a video game.

Thanks,

John

500 Storm-troopers vs. 1 real ed-off naked Ewok-Rebel-Commandoe with a sharp stick (TM). A fair fight and highly amusing. Plus all you need is a bunch of storm-trooper minis and one ewok, on a forest/jungle table-top (think 'Predator', but with an ewok…)

Rebels understand the use of cover and speed.

In the SWMB rules form West End, the real advantage of Stromtrooper armor was that it protected against environmental effects… and that meant gas.
Once you played with all the Advanced rules and brought chemical weapons into the game, Stormtroopers realy came into their own. Fex-M3 nerve gas is a personal favorite. It's expensive, but you don't need much.
There is also a case to be made that Stormtrooper armor includes built-in vision-enhancement gear, effetively negating the penalty for shooting through Smoke. This means Stormtroopers can reduce most Alliance forces' accuracy to an equal level with them.
in SWMB, Stormtroopers got thir armor for free; comparable ("Battle" or "Combat Armor" cost 10 Squad Generation Points per man; in an avergae Rebel squad of eight troops, that was the cost of one or two extra men… buy armor that might not be useful or take more men?
Either way, my Stormtroopers ALL had grenades of various types.

Same for the troopers that board the Tantive IV and perform the search on Tatooine. The ISDs were likely not carrying elite clones, just normal humans.

I wonder. I get the impression, especially after watching "The Clone Wars" TV show, that the Star Destroyers are part heavy cruiser/battleship and part LHD with the Galactic Empire's version of a MEU AND a wing of TIE fighters. The stormtroopers on-board aren't just fleet security types, after all doesn't the Imperial Navy actually have guys like that, and are more like US Marines in that they are well trained and instantly deployable expeditionary troops.

For example, when Vader hit Hoth he didn't have anything except his command ship and a task force of SDs. No troop transports at all. And he was able to launch a powerful strike from space (assault a defended beach) and sieze an enemy base. Sort of like what the USMC can do. I think that their poor performance in the movies are pure plot devices that allow the heros to be heroic. Think about it! If these guys shot like properly trained soldiers then the whole Star Wars epic would have ended at Mos Eisley with Han shot down at the Falcon and the rest killed or captured when they boared the ship.

But hey, it's your game. Stat them out how you want.

For a really good read on elite Storm Troopers in action, get thee a copy of Allegiance by Timothy Zahn link

All of Zahn's books are superb contributions to the Extended Universe!

So I watched "A New Hope" again for the first time in years and couldn't help noticing the Stormtroopers were pretty effective in storming the Tantive IV. They lost two men on entry and the floor was covered with dead rebels in a matter of seconds. Their performance on the Death Star is pretty understandable if they were given orders to "let them escape." I suppose at Endor there was the whole surprise element, the real culprit probably being Lucas didn't want a bunch of dead Ewoks lying around. Most of their perceived incompetence must come from all the comic books, video games and novels. It was a bit disappointing to see some previews of Star Wars Rebels and see them portrayed as buffoons again. The bad guys are so much more interesting when they are effective. I suppose it all comes down to kids again, although there were plenty of Clone troopers blown away in the Clone Wars television series, at least the episodes I saw with my kids. Some of the battle scenes were pretty intense.