Viper guy  | 05 Sep 2013 10:30 p.m. PST |
I used to know this but….how many tanks in a soviet armor company and how many companies in a battalion. Same for US. If I remember correctly the US had bigger battalions. But I am not sure. |
| Martin Rapier | 05 Sep 2013 11:07 p.m. PST |
It depended, but in general Sov tank battalions were small, three companies of ten tanks each plus a BHQ tank. US and UK battalions were almost twice the size, but Russians went around in big regimental size blocks to make up for it:) |
| Gennorm | 05 Sep 2013 11:34 p.m. PST |
For Soviet it depends on whether the tanks were part of a tank or motor rifle regiment. In a tank regiment platoons were 3 tanks but 4 in a MR regiment. 3 platoons plus a command tank made a company, and 3 companies made a battalion. |
| Martin Rapier | 06 Sep 2013 3:38 a.m. PST |
There is some fgood stuff on NATO TO&Es on the TO&E yahoo group, but yahoo seem to have managed to break the links to any subdirectory with an ampersand in the title, which isn't very good for a group with lots of directories called 'TO&E'. If/when it works again, have a look in there. I'm very glad I printed off all the BAOR stuff! |
| mwnciboo | 06 Sep 2013 4:14 a.m. PST |
Martin any chance you could share that BAOR stuff? mwnciboo@gmail.com I'm working on Book 3 of my New look FOW stuff and it is BAOR, Bunderswehr and Canada. You know one of us needs to build a Super TO&E Wiki Site. (I might even consider it myself – It's alot of work but the benefit is huge – I love CAMOPEDIA and others!). |
| Major Mike | 06 Sep 2013 6:02 a.m. PST |
US had changed their structure in the early 1980's to the J series, 4 tanks to a platoon, 3 platoons plus two HQ tanks for a company and 4 companies plus two HQ tanks (for some reason I keep thinking three) for a battalion, 58 tanks.
The H series has three platoons with 5 tanks each plus two Company HQ tanks, three companies to a battalion plus three more HQ tanks, total 54 tanks. |
| VND 1AA | 06 Sep 2013 6:50 a.m. PST |
Did US armor units switch to the J Series organization before they transitioned to the Abrams? I've gotten the impression in the past that units using the M60 series tanks continued to use the H series organization until they upgraded. I don't know how accurate that is, though. |
| deleted222222222 | 06 Sep 2013 7:01 a.m. PST |
As units transitioned to the Abrams they adopted the J series organization. My battalion was the 2nd battalion in Europe to transition. The first bn to do so was 3/64 AR. We went from M60A1 Rise/Passive to the Abrams. |
 Murphy  | 06 Sep 2013 7:07 a.m. PST |
USAREUR… Tank Battalion (DIVISION 86): HHC 2 tanks (BN CO, BN XO), (this doesn't include bridge layers, CEV's, etc..)…just tanks… 4 tank companies: Each company had 4 platoons.
HQ platoon: 2 tanks, jeeps, truck.
1st, 2nd, 3rd Platoons: 4 tanks each… Support company: No tanks
Pre Division 86:
HQ company:
CSC (combat support company)
3 companies Each company having 4 platoons. (HQ, 1, 2, 3) Each of 1, 2, 3 platoon having five tanks…
HQ platoon having 2. total of 17 tanks per company….based on the "light/heavy section" composition… Total of fourteen tanks per company. |
| Jemima Fawr | 06 Sep 2013 7:26 a.m. PST |
As Gennorm says, It depends if the Soviet tanks came from a Tank Regiment or Motor Rifle Regiment: Soviet Tank Regiments used the three-tank platoon, with three platoons per company, plus a command tank, for ten tanks in total. Three companies per battalion. Soviet Motor Rifle Regiments used the four-tank platoon, again with three platoons per company, plus a command tank, for thirteen tanks in total. Again, there were three companies per battalion. Some Motor Rifle Divisions also had an Independent Tank Battalion – this was organised as a Tank Battalion belonging to a Motor Rifle Regiment, though the number of companies was often increased to four or even five. Soviet Independent Tank Brigades had battalions organised along the lines of Independent Tank Battalions; i.e. with four-tank platoons and extra companies. |
| Viper guy | 06 Sep 2013 10:35 a.m. PST |
Awesome, thank you gentlemen. How would you compare fire power ( or assign a combat value either in points or dice of firepower) of a Soviet vs US scrap in '86-90 at battalion vs battalion level and the company vs company level? |
| (Jake Collins of NZ 2) | 06 Sep 2013 12:21 p.m. PST |
Were the companies in the Independent Tank Battalions really 13 tanks strong? I must admit that I'd always thought they were just ten tanks. |
| Jemima Fawr | 06 Sep 2013 3:13 p.m. PST |
I've seen some wargames army lists that suggest 10 tank companies, but no sources mentioned. British Army and US Army guides to Soviet Army small unit tactics state four-tank platoons for the independent tank battalions. The subject of Independent Tank Brigades is much more open to disagreement though. |
| Jemima Fawr | 06 Sep 2013 3:19 p.m. PST |
Viper Guy, I've no idea how you'd ever even begin to calculating that, though it might be worth having a look at some high-level boardgames to see what factors they give the chits. Something worth considering though (and often overlooked), is that the majority of ammunition in the standard load-out for Soviet tanks was HE-Frag, whereas NATO tank ammo loads were geared towards anti-tank, with the only HE ammunition being HEAT (or HESH for British tanks). |
| Murphy | 06 Sep 2013 3:19 p.m. PST |
Company vs Company?….1986-1990…almost definately US armor would come out on top. M60A3TTS gave us a great advantage in night fighting. Even the old TIS on the M1's were advance than what Ivan had. But in the long run it depended on the mission…is this standard soviet attack US defense?…are we talking meeting engagemetn? US Hasty attack/Sov hasty defense? Same with battalions. If I am correct a Sov. tank bn had less organic support than a US battalion did. Although I think that US tank battalions had a mortar platoon. I know that an Armored Cav Sqdn had it all..tanks, brads, mortars, and a battery of 155's…. |
| Martin Rapier | 07 Sep 2013 12:01 a.m. PST |
Dupuy worked all this stuff out at divisional level, I can't be bothered to retrofit it to companies. Rough rule of thumb is that one Sov of regiment is equivalent to 1.5 NATO battalions, see e.g. the unit ratings in SPIs central front series, VGs NATO etc. A certain degree of variability around that mean, a Cat 3 regiment is going to be rather worse than a Cat 1, and a bunch of hastily mobilised heimatschutzen aren't going be quite the same as the Dragoon Guards. |
| Viper guy | 07 Sep 2013 4:24 a.m. PST |
Martin,
Ah yes, I still have that book somewhere. Thanks for the rule of thumb. |
| LORDGHEE | 07 Sep 2013 9:53 a.m. PST |
link
here you go
PDF link
The independent tank here dose not have the AA section or mortars that I seen on other TOE or the Inf company.
Lord Ghee |
| (Jake Collins of NZ 2) | 07 Sep 2013 1:24 p.m. PST |
Yes, FM-100-2-3 of 1991 says 10-tank companies in the Independent Tank Battalion. |
| Viper guy | 07 Sep 2013 6:57 p.m. PST |
Lord ghee Thank you very much. |
| nickinsomerset | 12 Sep 2013 1:27 p.m. PST |
Agree with above ref Tank Bn sizes, the only image I have of an ITB shows 1 x T-80, 1 x T-55T1 ARV, 1 x BATM and an MT-55! Another image of a Barracks in 3 Shock Army, good in that it is not an opinion etc it is read from what was there in a BMP MRR, 2 BMP-1 Bns and one BMP-2 Bn: Shed one – Arty Bn
16 2S1
6 MTLB (Blade)
5 1V12 series
PRP3
PRP4
loads of SSVs Shed 2 A/Tk
8 9P148
5 MT12
4 MTLB Blade Shed 3 BMP-1 Bn
5 Gaz 66 (Mortar Pln)
1 BMP-1 Shed 4 BMP-2 Bn
3 Gaz 66
7 BMP-2 Shed 5 BMP-1 Bn
4 x Gaz-66
14 x BMP-1 Recce 3 x BRM-1
2 x BMP-1
3 x BMP-2 Shed 6 Tk Bn recently converted from T-64
9 x T-80 Shed 7 AD
8 x BMP-2
3 x 2S6
1 x Dog Ear Shed 8
Engr Kit Div Recce Vehicles Around camp
1 x T-80
12 x BMP (Under Tarp)
10 x BMP-1
2 x BTR-60
8 x BMP-1 + MTP odds and sods everywhere
Think this was about 1987 Tally Ho! |
finds bases at the dollar store!
