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"Chain of Command with Force on Force scenarios?" Topic


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Comments or corrections?

Zelekendel05 Sep 2013 3:35 p.m. PST

How well do you think FoF scenarios would roll with CoC rules?
Troop quality from green to veteran (d6-d10) works, D12s would need special rules, but are really rare.

The number of phases and activations you get is much different, so would the turn limits (from FoF scenarios) change ?

Would insurgents (with possibly quite many teams) work with the activation system? The natural response would of course be to clump up but the way the reinforcements work this might not be possible.

Discuss!

Mr Pumblechook05 Sep 2013 4:37 p.m. PST

Without having played either and without any knowledge of the FoF rules or scenarios, I think it'd be worth a try.

You'd need to assign the number of command dice :say 6 in line with the british airborne for the vets and 4 for the insurgants, and number of junior and senior leaders.

You'd also need to decide on suitable national characteristics. Not sure what to do there.

You might also want to take into account better communications for command distances (borrowing from Q13, extra command initiatives to order someone outside your normal radius) and sensors for the patrol phase.

Maybe allow the insurgants to pop multiple units with a single Chain of Command die as an ambush

The random 'turn' length combined with the ability to use a Chain of Command dice to arbitrarily end the turn would be particularly nerve wracking for limited time scenarios.

whoa Mohamed05 Sep 2013 6:54 p.m. PST

I don't see any prob in using the scenarios with either set.
As stated you just need to compare the way the different rules define troop quality. COC uses the number of dice a unit can throw to conduct operations and obtain COC dice.One thing I would ask you to remember and that I believe will make things easier . Remember the context of the scenario what forces and objectives are being used to demonstrate the decisions and tactics needed to obtain your objectives,Do this from both sides and you find the scenarios alot more fun to play…
Perhaps alow insurgents more junior leaders. Don't sweat the D12 equivilent it is trully to rare. I also don't think the activation is an issue just think of cells as squads or teams of course weapons are treated the same way as in a normal COC game. A die of 1 would alow a RPG or other weapons teams to activate, with a 2 a cell and a 3 a cell leader ….Mikey

Mr Pumblechook05 Sep 2013 9:42 p.m. PST

A further thought, if the scenario is supposed to last a certain number of turns, make it that you cannot use a chain of command die to end a turn to give you victory. You have to win the scenario fair and square.

Zelekendel06 Sep 2013 5:12 a.m. PST

Thanks guys, especially Mikey who I know is all about FoF.

I like how in CoC leaders are important (even for the regulars), the fire combat, the turn structure and in FoF the action / reaction system and the idea of troop qualities as different dice are the best. But mostly I like FoF's scenario books.

Good points all.

Zelekendel06 Sep 2013 5:05 p.m. PST

Having most models with assault rifle rules really makes for an interesting and realistic dynamic where you need to get close to be effective. It's unknown yet how well 4 regulars fare against 8-ish green irregulars as that's the core of the game, I'll probably have to have some extra rules to even things out as in the base version training level doesn't affect your shooting effectiveness – just receiving fire (ala FoW).

At the very least I'd give regulars with modern rifles and sights the semi-auto bonus of re-rolling 1s at effective range at least.

Zelekendel14 Sep 2013 4:33 p.m. PST

I've wondered about the leaders, as Mikey said, as it isn't important in FoF, many of the scenarios leave out the platoon HQ staff and other "senior" leaders – but in CoC it's good to have them.

I checked through Donogh's scenarios and they seem to usually have platoon HQs and opfor senior leaders marked, so I should probably should add those to the scenarios. Two squads in the field (like in Crown Jewel in RtB) should probably be already commanded by a platoon HQ. Thoughts?

Oh, and any other rules ideas for insurgents (useful for WW2 too) are appreciated.

Zelekendel16 Sep 2013 3:08 p.m. PST

I've been chipping away at the house rules, and would like to ask anyone who knows (vets or otherwise) whether you think the fireteam leader has such an important position that he warrants having some sort of command initiative for his own fireteam- effectively allowing regular troops to perform "improved actions" (like in the national characteristics in CoC lists, for example extra firepower or ability to move and fire better) and teams without their normal fireteam leader perform worse?

Would this be a good differentiation for regular and irregular forces (among others)?

Game wise, I mean that on a result of 1 (maybe even 2?) fireteams with leaders could, for example, utilize a version of "Marching Fire" or "Hand Grenades!", whereas 3 and 4 would be reserved for more senior officers. They'd effectively have a command initiative of 2, but with the first one expended on the team activation as usual.

Zelekendel16 Sep 2013 7:13 p.m. PST

After much work and thought, here is my draft for the CoC Modern House Rules:

Chain of Command Modern House Rules

- Firing is based on the difference in Troop levels in FoF scenarios. If the shooter is 1 grade better, shoot as against "green", if even, use "regular", if the target is 1 better, use "veteran". If the shooter is 2 grades or more higher, they hit on 2+ at close and 3+ at effective, and if the target is 2 grades or more higher, they're hit on 6 at close and "7" (6 followed by a 4+) at effective range. An extreme difference of 3 grades means always hitting on 2+ or being hit on "7" regardless of range.
- A single 6 on the Chain of Command dice can be converted to a 5, it is no longer a wasted die. This is only possible when there is only one 6 rolled you cannot choose to not end a turn f.ex.
- Targets clearly enfiladed / exposed suffer a kill result on a 4+ instead of 5+, shock still on 3 only.
- A team may react to being fired (at any range) and movement (within Close range of their weapon(s) by firing even if not in Overwatch. Roll a D6 per unit reacting as well as the acting unit, and add +1 if regular, +2 if veteran, and +3 if Elite. Add a further +2 if on Overwatch. The highest scores go first (acting unit wins ties), but if a reacting unit rolls below 4, they are not able to react in time (also possible if a moving unit they reacted to moved out of LOS before their reaction). Units that successfully reacted without Overwatch are "out of ammo" and may not fire before they spend an action to reload.
- Modern Assault Rifles / SAWs with combat optics re-roll 1s to hit.
- Modern Body Armour grants a 5+ save to convert "kills" to "shock". Outdated (Vietnam-era) and light body armour has a 6+ save instead.
- When moving and firing, any modern team may either move 1d6 and fire at full effect or move 2d6 and fire at half effect.
- Modern Grenadiers may use their Grenade Launchers without specific orders when firing.

Regular Troops with fireteam leaders (roll to see if they are hit when their team takes a kill, but with a -1 penalty, and they don't roll on the leader hit table, they are just taken out of action as regular troops) can perform the following activations in addition to the normal ones whenever they're activated (even by use of command initiative):
- Maneuver!: Move with 2D6 and assume a Tactical stance at the end of their move. If activated by a junior or senior leader, may split into new teams, only one of the new teams moves.
- Tactical Fire! Fire with half their dice and move 1D6 inches in any order and then assume a Tactical stance.
- Fire and Movement!: Move with 2D6 and fire at full effect in that order.
- Assault!: Move with 3D6 and then fire with half the normal dice.
- Fire for effect!: Not move and fire with +2 dice.
- Focus Fire!: Not move and focus their fire against one enemy Team, even when other Teams are present within 4" of the target.
- Frags Out!: Attack against any enemy within 12" by a hail of grenades. Roll 1D6, subtracting 1 if the enemy is in light cover, 2 if in hard cover. On a roll of 1 or 2, one hand grenade has hit the target unit; on 3 or 4, two grenades hit; on 5 or 6, three grenades hit the target. Roll for the effect of these and the Team MAY then move with up to 3D6 to try to initiate Close Combat.


A regular junior or senior officer using command initiative to activate a team can choose to spend an extra point of command initiative to enable any of the above for a team without a leader, and in addition may:
- Add +1 Firepower (before possible halving) to a team's firepower per extra initiative spent.
- Activate a single Team and place it on Overwatch!. He may spend an extra initiative point to place the team in a Tactical Stance in addition to Overwatch.
- Activate one Team to put down Covering Fire! into an area of terrain. This requires at least 4 FP for a 4" section and 9 FP for a 9" section. Roll to hit with half dice and a -1 penalty to hit (this may push a required effect to "7", a 6 followed by a 4, if the hit roll would require more, do not roll to hit at all.) After this, troops in the covered terrain fire with a -1 penalty themselves until the end of the next phase. If they move, they are subjected to a half firepower attack with no hit penalty from the covering team(s). A covering team may do nothing until the end of the next phase, not even react to fire.
- Rally or use a single hand grenade / rifle grenade / anti-tank weapon as usual.

Irregulars:
- Insurgents may make out of contact movement and "return to reserves" with jump-off points.
- Whenever attempting to adopt a Tactical stance or move in Tactical stance, Irregulars roll a D6 and add +1 per rank above Green. On 3 or less, they fail to adopt Tactical Stance.
- Units can be "Courageous" (6+ save against Shock), "Zealous" (5+ save) or "Fanatical" (4+ save).
- Note that units of 1-4 are usually counted as "Teams" and activate on 1s, 5+ are "Cells" and activate on 2s, and can be split into teams. A cell remains a cell if it has detached 4 or less members and has 5 or more remaining. Otherwise it operates as two teams within a section.

Irregular leaders may activate their own Cells or teams normally, Rally! them or use a single hand grenade, RPG or other such weapon for 1 Command initiative and may use Maneuver!, Fire and Movement!, Assault!, Fire for effect!, Focus Fire! and Frags Out! ( not Tactical Fire!, Overwatch! or Covering Fire! as those are quite beyond their tactical skill) with 2 command initiatives and in addition may shout:
- Allahu Akbar!: Use all his Command Initiatives to order all the cells or teams under his authority and within his Command Distance that haven't been activated yet in that Phase to assault the enemy. Any troops so activated will move with 4D6 straight towards their chosen enemy, each squad dicing for its own movement. They halve their Shock for the Movement purposes (rounding up). Any Cells or Teams which get within 4" from enemy initiate Close Combat.

FOF Scenario notes:
- Force Morale is based on Confidence, not a die roll. Low Confidence means a roll of 1, Confident means a roll of 4, High Confidence means a roll of 5. Adjust for veterancy as per CoC, but note that this is based on the average Morale of the troops, not TQ.
- Supply level is as normal (poor has -1 FP, Abundant has +2 FP), and in addition this determines the availability of "limited" ordnance (like AT team rounds): Poor has 2/ team and has a chance for 2 more when at the jump point only on a roll of 5+, Normal is 3 as normal, and Abundant has 4 / team and gets 4 more from the jump point on a 2+.
- In Regular vs. Irregular, there is no patrol phase, the jump-off points are marked on the map, and the regulars usually deploy on the table in addition to a single jump-off point.
- Game length is in phases / player. When one side is at the number of phases indicated for the game to end, the next time his opponent hands the activation over to him, the game ends.

Common small arms of the modern age:
WEAPON FIREPOWER CLOSE EFFECTIVE NOTES
Assault Rifle 3/1 0‐18" 18‐48" Firepower is range dependent.
Squad Automatic Weapon 4/2 0‐18" 18‐48" Firepower is halved when moving.
Rifle Grenade Launcher 2 ‐ 18‐60" Cover counts as one lower.
RPG-7 7AP / 2HE - 48"

Dynaman878917 Sep 2013 4:33 a.m. PST

Thanks Zelekendel, those look like a great adaptation!

Zelekendel17 Sep 2013 4:02 p.m. PST

New Firing Table based on difference in TQ between troops:

Range +3 to +2 +1 to 0 -1 to -2 -3
Close ….3-6…..4-6…..5-6…….6
Effective 4-6…..5-6…..6………7 (6 and 4+)

The old one didn't work so good.

Zelekendel17 Nov 2013 12:12 p.m. PST

I redid the whole shebang, much improved now. Here it is:

Chain of Command / FoF Hybrid House Rules
- Uses CoC unless otherwise noted.
- A squad with three teams still counts as a squad if two teams stay within 4".
- Phasing works like FoF: both players roll their command dice, and the phasing player activates his units first. However, the non-phasing player may both react to the phasing player's activations with his command dice and perform activations with his remaining dice after the phasing player's activations for the phase are done. 6s on the command dice determine who has the initiative next phase as normal (in case both roll 2+, the one who rolled more wins, in case of a tie the initiative changes hands), with the initiative alternating if not double 6s are rolled.
- A single 6 on the Chain of Command dice can be converted to a 5, it is no longer a wasted die. This is only possible when there is only one 6 rolled you cannot choose to not end a turn f.ex.
- A unit (team or squad) on the non-phasing side may react to enemy actions just like in FoF by expending the correct command dice., even if not in Overwatch. A reaction may be either a normal firepower attack, moving up to d6" and adopting a tactical stance, or moving up to 2d6 without firing. Pinned or broken units may not react.
o Roll a a quality die per unit reacting as well as the acting unit as in Force on Force. The highest scores go first (acting unit wins ties), but if a reacting unit rolls below 4, they are not able to react in time (also possible if a moving unit they reacted to moved out of LOS before their reaction). If on overwatch, rolling below 3 means they fire after the opponent's fire or movement.
o Leaders may spend command initiative to have their subordinates in command range react. You can spend only a portion of a leader's initiative at one time, mark down the remainder for the phase with a die or tokens or just remember.
o The phasing player may also perform opportunity fire in a similar manner to FoF.
o Units that reacted with Overwatch may spend an appropriate Command die or Command Initiative from a nearby leader to remain in Overwatch.
o Any unit, even a pinned or already activated one, may attempt to react to an enemy unit moving to close assault them by spending a die or command initiative by firing.
o If reacting with a squad, all teams must react the same way.

- Modern Assault Rifles / SAWs with combat optics re-roll 1s to hit at effective range.
- When moving and firing, any team may either move 1d6 and fire at full effect or move 2d6 and fire at half effect.
- Modern Grenadiers may use their Grenade Launchers without specific orders when firing.
- Units in tactical stance may remain in Tactical Stance when firing, if they halve their firepower.

Firing is conducted with the firing unit's TQ Dice type. The Firing Table is based on the target's TQ:
Range d6 d8 d10 d12
Close 3-6 4-6 5-6 6
Effective 4-6 5-6 6 7 (6 and 4+ on a d6)


New Fire Effect Table (d10)
Cover No effect Shock Casualty
Open 1-3 4-6 7-10
Concealment 1-5 6-8 9-10
Cover 1-6 7-9 10
- Targets clearly enfiladed (taking cover, with the attacker behind the line described by the cover) or caught moving out in the open (2" from cover / concealment) suffer a +1 modifier for the fire effect table.

Casualty table for effective body armour against the casualty causing weapon. (D10).
1-2 Dead (2 Serious w medic or ALS) 3-6 Serious 7-8 Light 9-10 Ok

Casualty table for no effective body armour against the casualty causing weapon. (D10).
1-4 Dead (3-4 Serious w, medic) 5-7 Serious 8-9 Light 10 Ok

Caveman Casevac: (d10)
1-8 Out of Action 9 Light 10 Ok

Dead: Morale check or only responds to fire next phase. Model OOA.

Serious Injury: TQ check or only responds to fire next phase. Need to pass TQ check to move at the double. 1 point of Shock that cannot be rallied. Model OOA.

Light Injury: Need to pass TQ check to move at the double. 1 point of Shock that cannot be rallied. Model OK.

OK: One point of shock. Model OK.

Regular Troops with fireteam leaders (roll to see if they are hit when their team takes a kill, but with a -1 penalty, and they don't roll on the leader hit table, they are just taken out of action as regular troops) can perform the following activations in addition to the normal ones whenever they're activated (even by use of command initiative):
- Maneuver!: Move with 2D6 and assume a Tactical stance at the end of their move. If activated by a junior or senior leader, may split into new teams, only one of the new teams moves.
- Tactical Fire! Fire with half their dice and move 1D6 inches in any order and then assume a Tactical stance.
- Fire and Movement!: Move with 2D6 and fire at full effect in that order.
- Assault!: Move with 3D6 and then fire with half the normal dice.
- Fire for effect!: Not move and fire with +2 dice.
- Focus Fire!: Not move and focus their fire against one enemy Team, even when other Teams are present within 4" of the target.
- Frags Out!: Attack against any enemy within 12" by a hail of grenades. Roll 1D6, subtracting 1 if the enemy is in light cover, 2 if in hard cover. On a roll of 1 or 2, one hand grenade has hit the target unit; on 3 or 4, two grenades hit; on 5 or 6, three grenades hit the target. Roll for the effect of these and the Team MAY then move with up to 3D6 to try to initiate Close Combat.

A regular junior or senior officer using command initiative to activate a team can choose to spend an extra point of command initiative to enable any of the above for a team without a leader, and in addition may:
- Add +1 Firepower (before possible halving) to a team's firepower per extra initiative spent.
- Activate a single Team and place it on Overwatch!. He may spend an extra initiative point to place the team in a Tactical Stance in addition to Overwatch.
- Activate one Team to put down Covering Fire! into an area of terrain. This requires at least 4 FP for a 4" section and 9 FP for a 9" section. After this, troops in the covered terrain fire with a -1 penalty themselves until the end of the next phase. If they move, they are subjected to a half firepower attack from the covering team(s). A covering team that acts or reacts ends the covering effect.
- Rally or use a single hand grenade / rifle grenade / anti-tank weapon as usual.
- Reload! Have a unit within command distance reload and remove "out of ammunition" as a non-action costing 1 command initiative.

Irregulars:
- In Regular vs. Irregular games, the initiative always shifts to the regulars unless the irregulars roll 2+ 6s on the Command Dice.
- Regulars that roll 2 or more 6s on the Command Dice against Irregulars gain 2 shifts to the CoC dice to represent their tactical superiority, unless the irregulars also rolled 2+ 6s.
- Insurgents may make out of contact movement and "return to reserves" with jump-off points.
- Whenever attempting to adopt a Tactical stance or move in Tactical stance, Irregulars roll TQ .On 3 or less, they fail to adopt Tactical Stance.
- Units can be "Courageous" (6+ save against Shock), "Zealous" (5+ save) or "Fanatical" (4+ save).
- Note that units of 1-4 are usually counted as "Teams" and activate on 1s, 5+ are "Cells" and activate on 2s, and can be split into teams. A cell remains a cell if it has detached 4 or less members and has 5 or more remaining. Otherwise it operates as two teams within a section.

Irregular leaders may activate their own Cells or teams normally, Rally! them or use a single hand grenade, RPG or other such weapon for 1 Command initiative and may use Maneuver!, Fire and Movement!, Assault!, Fire for effect!, Focus Fire!, Reload! and Frags Out! ( not Tactical Fire!, Overwatch! or Covering Fire! as those are quite beyond their tactical skill) with 2 command initiatives and in addition may shout:
- Allahu Akbar!: Use all his Command Initiatives to order all the cells or teams under his authority and within his Command Distance that haven't been activated yet in that Phase to assault the enemy. Any troops so activated will move with 4D6 straight towards their chosen enemy, each squad dicing for its own movement. They halve their Shock for the Movement purposes (rounding up). Any Cells or Teams which get within 4" from enemy initiate Close Combat.

FOF Scenario notes:
- Force Morale is based on Confidence, not a die roll. Low Confidence means a roll of 1, Confident means a roll of 4, High Confidence means a roll of 5. Adjust for veterancy as per CoC, but note that this is based on the average Morale of the troops, not TQ.
- Supply level is as normal (poor has -1 FP, Abundant has +2 FP), and in addition this determines the availability of "limited" ordnance (like AT team rounds): Poor has 2/ team and has a chance for 2 more when at the jump point only on a roll of 5+, Normal is 3 as normal, and Abundant has 4 / team and gets 4 more from the jump point on a 2+.
- In Regular vs. Irregular, there is no patrol phase, the jump-off points are marked on the map, and the regulars usually deploy on the table in addition to a single jump-off point.
- Game length is in phases / player. When one side is at the number of phases indicated for the game to end, the next time his opponent hands the activation over to him, the game ends.

Common small arms of the modern age:
WEAPON FIREPOWER CLOSE EFFECTIVE NOTES
Assault Rifle 3/1 0‐18" 18‐48" Firepower is range dependent.
Squad Automatic Weapon 4/2 0‐18" 18‐48" Firepower is halved when moving.
Rifle Grenade Launcher 2 ‐ 18‐60" Cover counts as one lower.
RPG-7 7AP / 2HE - 48"

Happy Wanderer31 Dec 2013 1:59 p.m. PST

HI Zelekendal,

Any further progress on your FoF adaptations?

How do you convert the FoF troop ratings into Chain of Command ratings? There are three key qualities for troops, rated by the type of dice they used…..

Initiative – rated D6, D8, D10, D12

Troop quality – rated D6, D8, D10, D12

Morale – rated D6, D8, D10, D12

Confident or Low in Confidence – which effect how they react in certain circumstances….?

Thoughts appreciated.

Cheers

Happy Wanderer

dwight shrute21 Nov 2015 6:43 a.m. PST

great stuff Z !!!

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