"Captain Grabner's attack at Arnhem...numbers?" Topic

I seen some different numbers for the amount of vehicles participating in Grabners fatal attack at the Arnhem bridge. I was hoping some of the experts here could chime in with some info.

The most common number I've seen listed is "22" armored vehicles and sandbagged trucks.

One source however (It never snows in September) stated that Grabners recon battalion had between 30-40 vehicles at the start of the Arnhem campaign.

Thanks for any help.

There's also a debate about whether Grabners unit was equipped with Pumas. "It never snows…" states that several of the vehicles leading the attack were Pumas.

Cheers.

My main source is It Never Snows too – I seem to remember that that the Pumas had dashed through the ambush, and took no part in the fighting.

I also don't know if some of the Recon battalion were left at Nijmegan.

One interesting snippet is that Grabner was using a captured Humber as his command vehicle – this perhaps suggest they were rather short of vehicles.

Yes, Graebner left some vehicles at Nijmegen. Reportedly that included short 75mm armed SPWs.

Half of Graebner's battalion also went west to investigate the landings at Oosterbeek before he took the remainder to Nijmegen. Once you subtract the small force left behind at Nijmegen, that means that less than half of the battalion was present when he rushed Arnhem Bridge, so 20 vehicles seems about right.

9th SS Recce never received any 234-series vehicles before Arnhem, though they did have some 232 8-wheelers in Normandy, so it seems far more likely that the 8-wheelers (if they existed at all) were 232s. Hopefully Andy Parkes will see this, as he's the man for detail.

I cannot recall the name of the book I read a few years back, but it had to do with German armored divisions going out of line for rest, refit, etc. It may have been specific to SS divisions since I recall the 2nd, 9th and 10th being mentioned. Anyhow, according to the book, by this stage of the war, commanders would fudge inventories of operational vehicles heading into a refit. It stated that they would disable the gun(?) or engine(?) so it would be classified as not operational. If a vehicle was listed as not operational, you had a better chance of hanging on to it and not having it replaced by another vehicle. The commanders were not sure what and how many vehicles they would come out with on the other side of a refit. This resulted in paper inventories being different than actual vehicles on hand.

Since the 9th was stopped in transit to a refit, a difference in numbers in different sources could be explained by such a practice. Then you add in the fact that the recce unit was one of the first units of the division to be available when pulled off the trains and portions of it were used in several spots at the same time.

With the possibility of fudged numbers and being "broken down" into various battle groups, it would be easy for some confusion of actual inventory to happen. And don't forget that heavy fighting and losses in Normandy lead to some units being combined before leaving for the Arnhem area. That is a recipe for confused paperwork.

In this picture it looks like at least 20 destroyed vehicles on the bridge. If anyone has an enlarger you may be able to determine what they are?

According to this history only 12 vehicles were destroyed. Seems to differ from the photo above.

At 09:30, British lookouts reported that armoured cars were approaching the Bridge from the south. The initial reaction was that the vanguard of the Guards Armoured Division had put in an unexpectedly early appearance, but these hopes were soon dashed when the vehicles were identified as German. This was the 9 S.S. Reconnaissance Battalion, returning from their scouting mission to Nijmegen on the previous day.

What their exact intention was remains a mystery, but they either hoped to challenge the defenders or race through them to assist the 9th S.S. Panzer Division's defence of Arnhem against the remainder of the 1st Airborne. Either way it was a complete disaster. The Airborne men were alert and waiting, and they allowed the first four vehicles to pass by unhindered, but those behind were badly shot up by anti-tank weapons and small arms fire. The supporting German infantry were unable to advance more than half way across the Bridge, so dense was the fire levelled at them, while reinforcements, some mounted in extremely vulnerable half-tracks, made equally little progress as they attempted to help. The fighting lasted for two hours before the heavily mauled Germans withdrew to safety, leaving the Bridge littered with their dead and the burning wreckage of twelve of the Battalion's twenty-two vehicles. It is estimated that seventy of their four hundred men were killed during the attack, included amongst which was their commander, Hauptsturmführer Viktor Graebner, who only the previous day had been awarded the Knight's Cross for his bravery in Normandy.

The photo was not taken right after Graebners attack.

Personally I don't have any issue with it being 22 vehicles, and that is what I used when running it as a game.

You will be hard pressed to find a better source than It Never Snows, and I'd be interested if anyone does come across such a thing.

the friends of the hartenstein museum produced a booklet which i have a copy that mentions how many vehicles were in Both 9th and 10th SS recon Bn's. It also goes on to discuss which vehicles were destroyed and where and how if known.

Scotts website "defending arnhem" also mentions the vehicles destroyed and who they belonged to..

The only one still in contention is did Graebner use a Humber scout car or Armoured car, as it is mentioned "he leaned over and banged on hull" bit difficult in turret of A/C??

I can dig out sopurces and give an exact number later today.

He had definately x6 armoured cars (1x Humber, 2x 231, 3x 222,one of the 231's had a wheel blown off by a Hawkins mine laid by the assault platoon of 2 Para. Following on behind were x3 Sdkfz 250/1's of which the lead was stopped by a 6Pdr of B troop, the rest crashed into rear of hulk and the occupants were shotdown either inside the vehicle or as they tried to escape. A half hour later the rest of 3rd Coy arrived in a mix of the rest of the 250's and the Citroen Trucks plus x2 Sdkfz 10 one of which was brought to a halt against the wall of the Von Limburs Stirum School using grenades and small arms.
Other vehicles included Schwimmwagons and M/C's

Fred,
The second Coy 250/9 was left in Nijmegen and these were the ones who ended up at the Brickworks on the South bank and subsequently stopped the advance of 1 and 3 Para along the low road near the Museum.

Thanks BF Andy! Great info! Does your info state what types of 250's he had at Arnhem.

He had both alte and neu versions of the 250/1 if thats what you are after

Thanks Bf!

will be playing the BF Scenario tomorrow night.

OK here goes here are the numbers i have by Company.

STABs Kp.
x4 M/C Combo
x3 Sdkfz 251
x1 Humber Mk IV
x2 Schwimwagon

1. Kp (PzSpah)
x2 M/C
x3 M/C Combo
x3 Schwimwagon
x3 Sdkfz 222
x2 Sdkfz 231
x5 Sdkfz 250/9

3. Kp (aufkl)
x1 M/C Combo
x1 Kubelwagon
x1 Schwimwagon
x2 Sdkfz 10
x4 3ton Lorry (Citroen)
x10 Sdkfz 250/1
x1 Sdkfz 250/7
x1 Sdkfz 250/11

5. Kp (Schwere)

x3 Sdkfz 251/9
x3 Sdkfz 251/1
x2 4.5 T truck
x1 Kubelwagon
x1 M/C

1. (PzSpah)10th SS

x4 M/C Combo
x2 Kubel
x6 Sdkfz 222
x2 Sdkfz 250/9
x3 Sdkfz 231