"Black Brunswick Standard Bearers" Topic

Not a repeat of my previous general question on standard bearers but specific to Brunswick.
The figures I have are Perry's and it seems to my untrained eye that these are officers.
Can someone clarify please?
Thanks

Since they were created with British support, I would presume they used ensigns as standard bearers as the British army did.

Jim

Your logic seems very sound.
Thank you.

I would guess the Perrys erred.

Ensigns were officers. So I guess the perry figures are ok.

Only if you guess Brunswick ensigns carried the flag.

I have spent a lot of time researching to find a statement, or picture, to confirm or deny that standard bearers were ensigns. I have not found anything at all.
I think all logic is that they were.

Not everything that the Brunswickers did was predicated on British practices – for example, the infantry battalions were composed of four large companies (each of four "zug"), rather than ten smaller ones.

I would not assume that they had junior officers carrying the flags; more likely they were senior NCOs.

Google: brunswick site=theminiaturespage.com .
Go to the "facings" thread.
Follow the links provided in that thread.

Hi there
Tried to follow your suggestion but, forgive an old codger, got a little lost with what was presented.
Perhaps you would be good enough to clarify.
Thanks

A bit more detective work has shown that that for men and NCO's the pompom was about 100mm high conical shaped, blue over yellow. For officer's the pompom was again about 100mm, again was blue over yellow, but was an inverted conical shape wider at the top tapering down. Perry's and AB Miniatures show the officers shape. Not saying it is conclusive but more of a leaning towards officer.
Please note I am only interested in the 3 No line regiments, not light or jager, who did not have a standard.
References were Etling and Osprey MAA Series "The Black Brunswickers" by von Pivka.

These are illustration for 1815 (showing a sergeant)

1st battalion
link
link

2nd battalion
link
link

3rd battalion
link
link

I think that is conclusive enough.
I appreciate the information

Disposalman,

In support of the Prince of Essling's post, the collection of the Braunschweigisches Landesmuseum indicates that standards were carried by sergeants.

Jurgen

Jurgen
Appreciate your addition to the evidence.
Tom

The tradition in Germany was to give the standard to senior NCO's and not – as in England – to very young officers.

Interesting! You learn something new everyday!

Not necessarily. The Prussians had a habit of giving them to a Frei-Korporal, who would often be a very young officer-candidate (much the same as a British Ensign in many respects).

There's a joke here somewhere.

@RMD – In terms of his status, the Frei-Kaporal was more in the nature of the "gentleman volunteer" who served in the ranks until a vacancy appeared; there was already a rank of ensign among the company officers.

@Disposalman – Bear in mind that if was not uncommon for the most senior NCOs (ie regimental and company sergeant majors) to have officer quality uniforms, so a "full" plume would not necessarily indicate an officer per se.

"There's a joke here somewhere." You mean:
"The Frei-Kaporal stood next to the batter-drummer so they could cook more quickly?"

@ Supercilius Maximus – I am aware there could be all sorts of possibilities as to actual rank for a standard bearer, hence my original question and seeing how evidence came to light.
Thanks for your comments

Just to add to the mix;-
Brunswick Troops 1809-1815 by Otto von Pivka [Osprey MAA 167] shows officer with standard.
Die Fahnen Von Waterloo Heere & Waffen No 12 shows a sergeant. Has only 3 stripes not the colour sergeant badge of centjours.

Well, that must be the reason I've only painted the Leib battalion, who carried no colours!

"No pain no gain" that way!!

I think the good people at Cent-Jours might be over interpreting the term 'Fahnen-Sergeant' into the actual standard bearer.
I think it's more likely to be just the colour sergeants- the NCOs charged with protecting the actual standard bearer from attack as in the British Army- think the rank badge is similar too.
FWIW, I would think that the actual person who carried the colour was either a very junior officer as per British/KGL, or a young officer-aspirant with nominal NCO rank as per the German tradition- a young gentlemen anyway.

seneffe
What has made this little study interesting is the 'possibilities'.
Not just for this topic but so many of the uniforms of the period.
Keeps the mind active I think.