"An alternative to a traditional turn sequence" Topic

Hi everybody.

I am working on a set of rules that has the player actting as a Brigade or Regimental Commander in World War Two.

I would like to use random activation with something other than a traditional turn sequence.

I don't claim to have invented this. I just can't remember where I got this from….

I have chosen Companies as the force level to get activated.
Each Company gets a chit in a colour specific for their side. Therefore a Brigade could have up to a dozen or so chits.
Both players place their chits (red and blue are the colours I use) into a dice cup.
During the activation phase, the dice cup is shaken and someone draws the first chit. If it's blue, the blue player can activate any one of his Companies. If red, the red player goes.
After each chit is played, it is placed into a done pile.
This continues until all the chits have been drawn, ending the activation phase.
If a player wants to coordinate a bigger attack, he has the option of holding on to a chit that he has drawn for "Staff Planning" purposes. He states that he is holding onto the chit and another chit is drawn. The player planning the big "push" has to wait until he can draw the number of chits he wants. That could happen quickly or slowly but it will happen. I limit this to one single battalion at a time.
If a company arrives as reinforcements, it adds its chit to the dice cup. If a company is destroyed, its chit is removed from the dice cup.

Random acts can be easily triggered by placing a white and/or black chit in the dice cup. When one of these is drawn some special occurrence happens. (I use the white chit to activate airstrikes.)

This appeals to me because it's simple, flexible, and somewhat chaotic but everyone will still get to go. (Nothing worse than being in a random activation game with teams and being told you don't get to go this turn.)

This works with differing force levels i.e. sections or platoons.
I suspect that with a little tweaking it could plug into other games as well.

There are other smaller nuances (reconnaissance patrols and independent platoons) but this is the basic concept.

Thoughts?

Thanks for looking.

Regards, Michael in Cloverdale.

There are lots of ways to achieve this, I think the TooFatLardies-style card deck probably works better than this method purely for being easier to implement.

It's similar to Bolt Action's (well, identical on the one unit has one chit) activation system. However the holding on to chits till you get a certain amount for a 'big push' is a nice idea. You could have a whole system for command and control whereby you would have certain commanders and sub-commanders able to use their C&C abilities in a different way.

So, you Brigade/regimental commander could save up to 5 chits, battalion commmanders up to 3, and company commanders up to 1 extra chit. However as the lower down the command tree you go the better the personal knowledge a commander has of the troops under him, that means he is more likely to allocate and distribute the right guys in the right place. For example the divisional commander may know he has great troops, but only actually knows the officers down to battalion level. By contrast the company commmander will know down to platoon and section leader level and will hone the force of men to the task at hand, as it is the guys on the ground that get the job done.

So once per game you could, when using a battalion commander's chits to conduct an attack all units get a +1 to their command/morale type rolls. Company commanders would get this too, but would get get +1 to all shooting or combat rolls. Just a thought on how you could represent the varying levels of command.

Do you at present have to specify how many chits you are trying to get before hand, or is it just use them when you want? I'm just thinking if you just choose to use them when you want that seems very fiexible (ie you react to the moment to your opponent's actions) considering the comms available and passing on of orders it would be unlikely that a commander at the top could effect such an 'on the spot' execution of orders. The alternative would be to specify the number of chits you want, but then your opponent will play to that knowledge. The best way would be to write down how many chits you want but hide the result until you get that many, with the obligation to show your number to your opponent as proof (as a gentleman would of course…)

That would then throw up a difference between nations day, most notably between Russian and German, and the Germans could have any number of chits to pull that they want, but the Russians must choose maybe 3 minimum each time to represent their sledgehammer tactics, it could be great fun. Either way it kinda reminds ke of the Battlegroup series for unit activation whereby you roll dice for the amount of units to use per turn. This is an IGOUGO system but the random number of units breaks up the standard 'I move all mine, you mice all yours' situation.

Hope that load of waffle helps, cheers!

True – if you factor in formation commanders with their own ratings you can adapt the I Ain't Been Shot Mum! activation sequence to Brigade/regiment. May be worth contacting the Lardies to get further insight.

I'm not sure I would like the feel of how the random activation interacts with the free choice of which unit to activate.

A commander at the brigade or regimental level would have to deal with the challenge of synchronizing the battle rhythms of his troops. If the companies had designators (numbers), then you could use numbered chits. Draw Blue-2, the Blue player activates Company 2.

I would probably double it up, too. Two chits per company per side.

Holding chits, then, adds some additional drama. I know he held 2 and 4, so he's probably waiting for 3 to do a push on the left flank. Should I wait until I get the best unit to counter or should I take a riskier option now, so I am sure I have foiled his plan?

You can still have your random event chits. And you might even have one "pick a unit" chit for commander's prerogative.

If you went with cards instead of chits, you could add some extra of the randomness you seek. Before you shuffle the turn deck, separate the four "specials" shuffle them, then only take three of them (or whatever, one less than you have). Now shuffle the regulars (two per company) and remove one. Then shuffle the three specials and the regular units, missing one, for the turn deck.

Michael – I've been toying with similar at a higher level for over a year now, based on a kriegspiel I ran.

Reading the British Army 1956 'rules' to teach Staff, the emphasis is on the planning, the actual combat rules are really simple, simplistic even.

The problem I've encountered is the 'holding on to plan' aspect. I feel the chit should be allocated to a specific unit or HQ, to show the planning in sector 'x' can't be shifted suddenly to deal with an attack in sector 'a', but without making it obvious to the opponent where the build up is by piling chits by the HQ. I've wondered if keeping some sort of 'box' system, 1 per Bde HQ would be too annoying for players.

The '56 rules assume planning at the Bde/Bn level for the most part, so thats what I went for – 1 unit on table was a bn. For a miniatures game I am thinking 1 chit is planning for 1 Bn, and is allocated to a Bde HQ. If the attack is to be supported by other Bdes, then an extra chit for each Bn in a different Bde, and another chit if in another Div.

Likewise for stuff held up chain of command: a Bde can use Div assets for 1 chit, Corps 2 chits, or another Divs for 2, and so on – 1 chit, plus 1 for every 'cousin' connection if you like!

This represents the Div Commander (or above) having to deal with the co-ordination, and the negotiations/message time/etc that has to take place.

The black/white chits are a great idea.

John Salt and Martin Rapier are your chaps here. It was John (I think) that made the '56 rules accessible to us mere laymen

I've been using this method for a while now…except for the random events. One card (chit, etc)/one activation meant only one unit activates at a time. Couldn't do simultaneous attacks or combined arms or concentrate firepower. Simply being able to hold an activation (or 2 or 3) enables this.

Last Hussar wrote:

John Salt and Martin Rapier are your chaps here. It was John (I think) that made the '56 rules accessible to us mere laymen

Wrong John -- the credit here, as with so many other fine things from the "History of Wargaming" project, belongs to John Curry.

All the best,

John.

I have done this with cards – you kind of built a hand, but if you waited too long to use cards – there was an end of turn card that your opponent could draw -you then dumped your hand – reshuffled your force deck and drew a number of cards –

I stole the Idea from a boardgame – better sub commanders could activate two or three nearby units under their command, and without interrupt cards from your opponent you could potentially make double mega moves that swept away your opponents flank –

I saw it in at least one boardgame and refined the idea… the game had a tempo number on the cards, and you could only play higher tempo numbers than what your opponent had played already this turn… it was eastern front, and your rubbish Russians had tempo numbers that ran from 1 to about four, with some sub commanders with values of 3 and 4. most of the Germans had 3 to 6 as the value, so germans got to shut off most of the soviet move if they got to play the first card, and could usually stop Russians dead if they just played their odd 6 tempo card, and went for a reshuffle and hoped to retain initiative. (in your system everyone gets a turn – it might be fairer but it might be less like real life…)

It is one I have played with in some sci-fi rules for 6mm. I like the chits better (I use plastic counters) because "shuffling" is just stirring, and you can add one or pull one out without having to shuffle a deck.

In sci-fi, I had big stompy robots, and wondered about whether they provided 2 chits, and required both to activate.

Edit: Oh, and I'd tried something similar about allowing the player to save some for later. Allowing some coordination, without giving them the chance to make the other unit go and get in range first, was some of the tricky parts. Were you requiring the player to say how many counters they were trying to pull?

andy

Salt, Curry. All stuff I like with chips, easy to confuse…

However you were helpful when writing my K/S. I'll see if I can dig up the copy for the OP.

Hey Madaz111, is that game Normandy '44?

Saving up chits addresses a problem I came across. Blow the trumpet, and all the Vikings charge at once. This unit charging, then an enemy unit moving then two more Viking units charging was silly. You might want to incorporate a mechanism that makes it more difficult to save up chits after the first turn when you kick off your attack (this would reflect problems with command and control, radio guy shot, unit timid, that sort of thing).

Grelber

The Raptor
I agree. There are a lot of ways to achieve this. I think that I'm biased against cards systems just because I'm biased against cards in games.

Duncan
Interesting.
Tracking chits at different command levels isn't something I had thought about. My first thought is that it would add more complexity to what I had hoped would be a very simple mechanism. I will consider this further.
How the reserved "Staff Planning" chits get used is something that I hadn't thought about either. I can see that this might give the reserving player great flexibility to respond to their opponents actions. I like your idea of writing down the number of chits to be reserved. Pardon me while I steal this idea….
Tasty waffles, indeed. This is exactly why I'm posting here. Thanks for the input.

Etotheipi
Yeah, I hear what you are saying about too much freedom of choice. I've tried it both ways (random vs specific unit activation) and it's a judgement call.
I don't see the point of having two chits (cards, whatever) per company per side. Can you expand on that?
(Interesting website by the way and I will check out QILS.)

Last Hussar
I see what you are concerned about. I will adjust this so that when "Staff Planning", the player will have to commit to a specific Battalion HQ for the chits involved. There should be a simple way of masking this as well. Thanks.

Darren
To me that is the nub of the problem for some players. It is more realistic that the time and effort invested in planning could be wasted by changing situations (the turn ends before your plan is acted on) but it's a judgement call to allow everyone a chance to "go". The eternal debate: fun verses worshipping at the altar of perceived realism. I'm aiming for the mythical middle ground compromise where everyone is equally annoyed with the results….
The system could easily be adapted by the players themselves. If you want a chance that the game will end randomly, just add a black chit (a joker card?) to the mix and when it is drawn, the turn is over.

Thank you everyone for the food for thought.

Regards, Michael in Cloverdale.

Planetfall by Studio Sparta has some interesting mechanics!

PDF link

I don't see the point of having two chits (cards, whatever) per company per side. Can you expand on that?

Having two chits per unit in a turn gives a little more variability (not really randomness) to the game.

You still get the same number of activations over two turns, but they can be distributed differently. A few of your opponent's units will activate twice before you get to activate all of your units once. And you will get a couple "doubles" on your opponent. Just a little more of the unknown.

Also, the first two or three units you use aren't "idling" until all the rest of the units (both sides) have moved. This is more important if you have more than 10-12 units per player. F'r'ex, if the first three units you activate are on your left flank, your opponent can discount any activity on his right flank for the rest of the turn.

You could also (and easily) randomly remove one card for one unit (or one per side) from the double deck to represent a unit (or the commander) being "confused". This could also be a penalty – something bad happens (or a player does something risky?) and a unit has one of their two activations removed from the next turn.

Another effect is it gives you a little more latitude with the distribution of your specials. F'r'ex, let's say there is one "activate any" card for each player. It only comes up every other "turn" (every two activations of all units). Or you could randomly select one of the two to go in the deck. Now only one player will get it in two "turns" (with the other card automatically going in the next shuffle).

It's not a "better" idea than one activation per round, just different. It creates a different flow. At the strategic or tactical level of command, I don't think I would like this. At the operational level you discuss, I think it has a good "feel".

Hi Etotheipi.

That's interesting. I hadn't considered this before. I think this would be useful at the operational level. I will think on this for a while. Thanks for the idea.

Regards, Michael in Cloverdale.

One problem with saving chips is that going last is almost always an huge advantage somewhere on the table. It might allow you to advance without being shot, for example, since your opponents have already moved. So people will save chips just to ensure this advantage, not just to co-ordinate their moves.

What happens when a player wants to co-ordinate two attacks? Can they start saving two piles?

In the final resort a gamey player might say he's going to co-ordinate all his troops, and save every chip to the end! An ideal mechanism wouldn't even allow the possibility of such gamesmanship, rather than having to rely on player honesty.

I would propose a slightly different mechanism: a player pulls chits and keeps on going until one of the other colour is drawn, whereupon he moves all the chits he has. If he gets three chits in a row, then he can move three units together. So co-ordination is still possible.

It would be a rare move that you would not get three chits in a row at any point, and most often you would get four. But it might be early in the turn, preventing you from hoarding your best attack moves to last.

And you could have a once per game Veteran leader ability that let's you re-pull one chit of your opponent's to have another go to try to get another of yours (like a re-roll, but a re-pull)

I like thd two chit idea too as the flow of the units is a bit different.

If you have a random chit in with all the others, and the idea is to pull them all until every unit has been activated, wouldn't that mean that 9/10 times you will pull the random chute before you get to the DBS if all thd rest? Therefore wouldn't that mean that you would get a random event most turns? I'm just thinking you wouldn't want more than 2-3 random events per game, as if they happen all the time they would get a bit boring maybe.

Please steal ideas as you see fit, I'm sure anyone that didn't want their ideas nicked wouldn't post on the TMP! hope all that helps :)

The below is a variation of a card-driven mechanic I've put into a game I'm working on. Feel free to steal or modify it if you like it. ;-)

(a) Draw a chit.
(b) Draw another chit. If it is the same color as (a), draw again. Keep drawing until a different color is drawn.
(c) If a different color, that chit can still be used for orders, but the player cannot draw any more for this activation.
(d) Use the chits drawn to activate units, etc. (If you don't use them, you lose them, i.e. no saving them for later…)
(e) The next player then takes his turn, as in (a) above.

This method gives a player a minimum of 2 actions, and more if a lucky streak of drawing occurs. Note that it doesn't matter if the player chooses to be 'red' or 'blue', it's what is drawn that matters. (It also allows you to have 3 or more players in a game. ;-) Instead of adding or removing chits as units are deployed or destroyed, it would probably be better to used a fixed amount (because as one side loses units, it would skew the drawing into lopsidedness.) The way my setup works is to allow you to use 1 pt to activate a single element, or use several to activate a unit's command element (which allows it to activate all other elements in the unit for 'free'.) Quite a lot of variation that can easily be experimented with, e.g You could give the chits to a higher level command unit and it can 'trickle' them down to lower level command units over several turns, hopefully just when you need them…. ;-)

I'm using a chits activation system like this for Moderns, but I'm using a variation of the Lock'nLoad boardgame 'World at War' system.

It uses a chit to activate a NATO Company or WP Battalion.

When drawn the drawn formation must activate.

If you want to group formation activations then there's a 'Battle Drill' chit that allows two Formations to activate simultaneously.

Each Formation gets a single chit, except if one side has a significant advantage over the other when they can get 2 chits.

I also use a chit for determining when an Air Strike turns up.

For a bit of variation and chaos I play a rule whereby you roll 2d6 on a chit draw: with a 2 or 12 you get to roll on a Chaos chart where all sorts of random things happen (extra arty arrives, random air support, Leader creation etc). On a 2 the chit goes back in the cup at the end of activation, hence gaining an extra activation. On a 12 the formation loses the drawn activation. I use 2d6 for the chaos as using a chit draw for the chaos almost guarantees it being drawn each turn and it has too big an effect on the game.

My design partner and I have been using and developing a game mechanic using the chit system for over 10 years now. So far we have implemented it for every major period and with everything from skirmish to large scale napoleonics.

The chit system just works. However I have yet to see anyone actually use the system for what it does best. It took us a while to realize just how great the system is. Let's just say the only the surface has been scratched where this system is concerned and I truly think that the chit system for not just activation but total game Managment is going to be the future in table top miniatures gaming.

We will release the WW2 version of our system in the he next couple of months for open play testing and I think you will see what I mean when I say that chits can represent so so so much more than just a way to activate units on a one to one level like Bolt Action does. In a very real sense the beauty/potential of the mechanic has been missed by every chit activation system I have seen so far.

I am not sure we have the perfect solution yet but over 10 years of work has really shown us much more potential than has been displayed yet in an available rules set.

I hope to post up a link in late January early February for download of the open play test rules of the WW 2 system. Followed shortly there after with Napoleonics, ACW and Ancients version of our chit mechanic.

The tyranny of the game turn is soon to be over.

Let me simplify this for you.

1) Assume each side has 10 units.

2) Put into the cup

10 red tokens,
10 blue tokens,
10 pink tokens,
10 light blue tokens.
5 white tokens
3 dark green tokens
3 light green tokens.
1 black token.

3) Draw one token a turn.

a. Red token- red moves one unit of his choice.
b. Pink token- rec choses one unit of his choice, gives it it's orders verbally and blue moves the unit according to his orders, or rather, his interpretation of red's orders. Umpire has yea or nay veto.
c. Blue token blue moves one unit of his choice.
d. light blue token- Blue choses one unit of his choice, gives it it's orders verbally and red moves the unit according to his orders, or rather, his interpretation of
blue's orders. Umpire has yea or nay veto.

e Green Token. Red moves from one to three units of his choice simultaneously in a coordinated attack.

f. Light Green Token- Blue moves from one to three units of his choice simultaneously in a coordinate attack.

g. White Token, Umpire moves one unit of red or blue, his choice, but he cannot chose the same side twice in a row, as he wishes. Thus if he chose red the last time a white token was drawn he must chose blue the next time a white token is drawn.

h. Black Token. All tokens are returned to the cup and resuggled. Doesn't matter if not every unit has been activated.

All units in movment must STOP when they come with firing range of an enemy unit.

All firing is simultaneous and deadly.

There you go.

Red Token -- red moves ONE unit of his choice.

I like some of those ideas and there are some cool things that chits allow you to do. However I think there is a much more straight forward and clean way of doing this.

OK, Think of it this way but first answer these questions in your head.

What exactly are you trying to simulate by using randomly drawn chits?

Is it just a alternate method to the UGOIGO system or is it trying to do something more?

What really makes one army or a unit better than another army or unit?

What ability is it that an elite unit has that makes it so dangerous on the battlefield? btw the answer to this holds true all the way from ancient times to modern combat today.

Here is how I answer those question. Think about how these answers can be realized in a game mechanic using chits.

By drawing chits you are randomly assigning the passage of time to one army or the other in favor of UGOIGO. However it is more than that. What if one army has more activation chits in the bag than the other army? There would be a slightly greater chance that on any given draw they would get activation over the other army right?

Well what exactly justifies this is the answer to question two. One army is better than another army because it is more elite or veteran than its opposition.

So how exactly is that experience manifested on the battlefield of real life? Veteran and experienced troops at any level of organization are more likely to respond quickly to changing and developing circumstances on the field of battle. Its not that they have better weapons, although that can help, its not that they shoot better, run faster or any thing like that. It is simply that they can position themselves quickly and almost automatically to changing circumstances in a chaotic environment where less experienced troops find themselves hesitating, being overwhelmed and in general have to take longer to respond.

This very pure boiled down reality concerning what gives one army an edge over the other is perfectly managed by chits if you think about it.

You should let the chits simply activate a unit to do anything it wants with in a span of potential actions or combinations of actions. Better command structure means additional officers or NCO who add chits to the pool, better troops not just add more chits to the pool but can activate more chits.

You use the chits as the core balancing system for the game as well. Elite armies have units that give more chits tot eh pool and can activate more chits but have fewer units to fight. The advantage is their ability to bring a lot of highly effective combat to the enemy during the game.

When units or officers are eliminated you remove their chits from the bag immediately. When one side or the other has filled all their chit allowance your immediately clear the board of all but reserved action chits and repopulate the chit bag and keep going. There are zero turns. The game just flows from beginning to end.

There are of course tons of other things chits can do, you can put in artillery strikes, random events, all sorts of potential things that will pop up in the game.

Games managed this way are not just fun but time flies because all players are constantly involved in the game and people also enjoy watching the games because there is a tension built into the random activation.

There are some other critical, very critical components we have worked out over the years to make this work that I am not mentioning of course but you probably get the idea.

I really like the idea you have come up with for tokens and it is indeed unique. After using this system for playing now for a long time I find it far more enjoyable than any system I have come across in 35 years of table top gaming.

The chit/token mechanic is very intuitive, easy to teach, fun to play and watch and incredibly flexible. Unfortunately games like Bolt Action were on the right track but did not fully get the vision and potential. They treat all units equally and limit what you can do. I shared an early version of my mechanic with a guy that helped in development of Bolt Action years ago. I have no idea if that caused any influence or not but there are some things in Bolt Action that were in our early mechanics but were dropped when we realized they did not fully incorporate the elegance the mechanic is capable of. We were playing around with order dice at the time but abandoned that as too limiting for the commander of the unit and not really grasping how time would flow.

In the end Bolt Action became more of a order Dice activation reaction game instead of really allowing the chits/dice/tokens to manage the flow of time and how active different troops are with in that flow of time.

Lord, Did any of that make any sense? I am sitting and re-writting the entire text of our rules this week and my mind is bleeding out of my ears right now. We have a large play test this weekend and I am trying to get things cleaned up and all the new diagram images inserted into the rules as well as changes made recently

Search bgg for wargames with chit-pull activation. Have fun for days looking at all the variations that exists you can borrow ideas from.

Thanks, I will. I have gone through them before but there may some new items there. So far no one I have found is approaching the mechanic in the same way. Its not just the conceptual leap of how the chits are functioning mechanically to simulate time and initiative but linking that with other successful concepts like the integration of cards, events, unit cards open wargear purchasing etc to create something new. I have found elements here and there but so far I have not seen a system putting all these individually popular mechanics and game management systems together in one package. Dust Warfare very much like Bolt Action came really close but did not close the gap all the way.

I could be wrong. It is a big giant world out there and no one would know what my group has been doing if they were not in with us or had played a pick up test game at a convention with us.

I realize none of these ideas are new. However, they have never really been put together in a single really comprehensive rules set that is presented in a really professional way.

Besides which, what we are trying to do, and why we have been working for over a decade on the system, is pulling together different mechanics and presentations that have proven successful in their own right and blend them together with something like the Chit system to create a really easy to learn but infinity complex game in terms of what it is simulating.

YOu can, and we have, taught this game to 12 year olds in 15 min. However it is a really complex system in what it is simulating. Right down to things like armor penetration angles and deflection. One thing it is doing well that surprised us is the full integration of vehicles and tanks handled realistically at a company level or even higher.

One thing that is still causing a lot of problems, although we are hoping we have a solution, is getting close combat handled correctly. Getting something that feels right, gives appropriate results, is not too cumbersome and is still fun to play is really tough with Close Combat in games at the company level and smaller.

Right now we are leaning toward an attack and parry system that essentially activates when units move with in a certain range of each other. The problem is keeping the whole thing from becoming a giant fur ball. It has to resolve itself quickly but in such a way that it does not violate the over arching concept of the time and initiative mechanic the chits provide.

There is a tendency to create a bubble on the table top where you have a game with in a game. Which is fine until you start trying to figure out how the units outside the bubble interact with the bubble or actually become part of that combat.

Ideas are welcome.

I should probably start a new thread.

Michael,

You could consider using a mechanic we are using. Let your commanders contribute chits but also let them do something we call "Reserved Activation" they can sit on the chit the way you are talking about and then as a group they could activate the tactical units under their command who have likewise reserved an action for a unified push. IN our system we call this a "Combat Event". None of the units could activate any other action until everything is ready to go. It would actually be a really accurate way of simulating exactly what goes on as a commander gets unit ready to make a co-ordinated attack.

Of course the enemy would see that something is afoot and could try to interrupt your organized attack. meaning that the larger the push the more time it takes to organize and the more likely it is the enemy can interrupt it.

Squad leader and advanced squad leader does this. They even give more chits to the side with a more flexible response. Personal I don't see the gain. In our own game it is relatively easy to get inside the opponents decision loop anyway, so this kind of artifice has little attraction to us. Seen lots of systems just drawing playing cards, either for a general go or allocated to the unit. Standard cards gives 26 different units each. It does have the advantage of evening out so every body gets the same number of activations by the end of the deck. In an attack/ defence game should the defender get more as he has less to command so he can be more flexible.