"Would ECW generals have a flag?" Topic

Or a personal standard, banner, command penant, etc, so that they could be found on the battlefield? Talking about above the Regiment level, someone who's commanding a group of regiments and is most likely away from his own regiment to command the brigade.

What about the 30YW?

I'd be quite certain of earlier generals having something.

Some might e.g. the King.

Probably…
Skippon and Fairfax are thought to have had them (and Rupert?)so it was probably common – makes sense-
"Where is the general? – oh there's his flag…"

Well, nearly all the generals were nobility of one level or another or well-established mercenaries who would have the trappings of nobility and perhaps a foreign ennoblement "for services rendered". But the ones that were at the brigade or higher level were often rich, powerful and high in the rankings. waller was descended from a Norman knight and had a coat of arms back to then. But with his puritan leanings I'm thinking he may have just used a plain flag of some sort.

Anyone encountered this in a reference from a battle?

Certainly the King had a banner (at Edgehill) and Rupert did too (at Marston Moor). These were big items, likely planted in the ground and marking HQ.

There's always been an idea that generals had 'personal standards'. I'm not so clear about these (in the ECW). Some are the cornets of their generals' Lifeguard cavalry troop, or the General's own troop of his regiment of horse.

yes, sorry for any confusion, I'm thinking of ANYTHING that a brigade or overall commander might use to note where he use, whether it's his coat of arms, a unique item, his personal regimental standard as the colonel, etc.

Basically, I'm thinking about marking my generals with a flag-bearer holding something, to aid me and the players in knowing "that figure there is the general" as opposed to just the regimental / battalion officer.

And since it's an historical game, I was wondering if there was precedent I could follow before I just go ahead and do it!

One idea could be to have the General's Lifeguard troop accompany him. So a single troop of say 40-100 carrying 'his' cornet. Depending on your figure:man scale this could be as few as 2 figures.

If cav, I could see a cornet. If the general had his own regiment of foot, I think the Colonel's color was somewhat his property and might go along with him were he detached to command a larger formation.

IIRC, in the George Gush WRG rules, the general's figure represented a bodyguard etc as well, for fighting purposes.

I'm not so sure about a general borrowing a foot ensign. Even Sergeant Major Generals of foot could have their own troops of horse, eg Lord Astley & Phillip Skippon.

i AM fairly convinced that the General would have a personal colour, carried by a cornet whevere he went- it may have alwso extendd to the commandders of Foot & Horse

and have come to the conclusion that it may well have been a plain colour but on a patterned fabric, possibly with acanthus leaves

Dave,
Any pics of flags similar to what you're thinking?
Also, any particular reasons WHY you think so aside from "it seems obvious and commons sense" which are my reasons at the moment?
Thanks,

Monro had one at Benburb as it is specifically mentioned as being captured

Yeah, couple of flags in Turmile. I was never convinced that CRomwell's had been left blank.

DId youi get my email about te cheap 40mm S&S I've gpt?

He did like the simpler things in life

so what I'm seeing here is that we should assume that any general will have a personal standard of some sort to ID him on the field.

I'm unclear about the type, or perhaps there wouldn't be a single type. Perhaps someone would drag out their old family standard from the War of the Roses or something?

It was considered bad form to have your coat of arms on your colour/s in the English Civil War, but sum still did.
As mentioned the description are fairly limited,what dose exist are a number on descriptions and sketches of captured
colours, it is unknown if they belong to the General or his troop of horse,but there is one belonging to Sir Ralph Hopton as General of Ordnance, would he have a troop of horse ?
All of them are cavalry size (about 2ft x 2ft square)and carried by a Cornet.
I will try and dig out sources

According to Eddie Izzard, a flag is essential:-

YouTube link

Okay, going to be contrary here (so what's new I hear)…

If you look at the surviving ECW manuscripts of cornets, and there are far more than you might imagine 6 or so but some are copies/part copies of others, there is absolutely no evidence for any sort of "personal cornet". And it is worth mentioning that such an item didn't exist earlier or later so why would it during the ERW. NB I said "cornet" NOT "standard" – will cover that one below.

Skippon is often quoted as having a personal cornet simply because he didn't have a Regt of Horse and he has a cornet recorded in the Mss in Dr Williams' Library. The soi-disant "Turmile Mss" (in the above library) is in the most part a copy of the earlier British Library Add Mss 5247 (the relative dates can be confirmed by the ranks given to the bearers). Skippon appears as a Captain in 5247 with the cornet and he WAS a Captain of Horse in 1642 of an independent Troop of London Horse and from 1642-1645 as a Captain of a Troop in Essex's Army.

Without exception every cornet that can be identified to a general officer can be equally that of his Troop or Lifeguard of Horse. IF some of these were personal cornets then we are somehow missing the individual's Troop or Lifeguard cornet – a highly unlikely state of affairs.

Fairfax's (Tom not Ferdinando) cornet is in The Turmile Mss (and is one of those NOT in 5247, which is one of the things that tends to show that Turmile Mss is at least contemporary) as are the other troops of his Regt. IF this cornet were to be a personal one rather than a Lifeguard one then somehow, Turmile would have recorded the troop' cornets of the Regt but omitted the Colonel's/Lifeguard Troop – again unlikely.

IF someone can point to a contemporary illustration of a purely personal, or even a mention of such an item (even Blount doesn't mention them) I would like to hear about it…

Now STANDARDS are a different matter. Both Rupert and the King had personal STANDARDS, and the King, of course, also had the Royal Banner (although it is not mentioned after Edgehill it was certainly the same size as an infantry colour). A STANDARD in the mid-17th C was a massive guidon shaped item, the same sort of thing that may have been carried during the Wars of the Roses – which is confirmed by the description of Rupert's when it was taken after Marston Moor (reprinted in PY's Marston Moor) and an herald's workbook in the British Library which shows the standards of James I and Charles I. These things, however, are HQ command flags and marked the position in camp, not on the field.

Now if you want to have a pretty flag by your General on the table then simply add the cornet and figure/s for the General's Lifeguard which would rarely be far from him anyway (not much point in a personal lifeguard that is half a battlefield away, after all).

Oh, last point (slightly off topic). The only recorded cornets with a full coat of arms (a la Medieval Banner) are probably actually trumpet banners. It was considered very bad form to carry Arms on a cornet but there is substantial evidence that officers in both armies had their Arms on Trumpet banners. (This also accounts for the Spencer 'cornet' taken in 1643 – the Arms are at 90 degrees to the horizontal but if it were a trumpet banner then it is the right way round).

Hope that all helps ?

Stephen Ede-Borrett

PS The cornet recorded for Sir Ralph Hopton as "General of the Ordnance" is from Symonds Diary and is recorded as being for "his Troop of Guard", so belongs to his Lifeguard Troop.

Thanks for the information and your perspective on this, Stephen.

I just bought a copy of your "Ensignes of the English Civil Wars" – very good to have along with the Peachey and Prince volume.

Cheers,

David
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