"Hinomaru and Kimigayo" Topic

I have a hunch that this thread may trigger political rants, and so should go on the Current Affairs board. But I also suspect that the CA regulars can't answer my questions, and that the folks who know the answers don't usually read CA. So I will post initially on General Discussion, and I will specify that I don't want to know what anyone _thinks_ of Japan, or militarism, or Japanese militarism, or, well, anything, actually. I just hope someone can answer a few questions with the facts. If Bill The Editor feels the thread must be quarentined on CA, march it over there and Dawghaus me if you must.

I recently read that in 1999, Japan re-adopted the Hinomaru as the national flag, and Kimigayo as the national anthem. Is this true?

I've never known of any other Japanese national flag than the red rising sun on a white ground - the Hinomaru. Between 1945 and 1999, did Japan officially use some other national flag? If so, what was it? Or did Japan do without any national flag for 54 years?

I think I remember the national anthem Kimigayo from the memoirs of several Japanese WWII soldiers. If I recall correctly, Kimigayo is fairly blood-curdling in its patriotism. There was a 'poetic' translation that appeared in several books: "If I go away to sea, I shall return a corpse, awash./ If duty calls me to the mountain, the verdant sward shall be my pall. / Thus for the sake of the Emperor, / I shall not die peacefully at home." There was also a more blunt translation: "Across the sea, corpses in the water. / Across the mountains, corpses in the grass. / Die for the Emperor. / Never come home." Uh, is this the national anthem Japanese school children are now being taught to sing?

I know of no other anthem that Japan has used. When I lived there (86-91) it was kimigayo, and it has been all along. Kimigayo played every morning on the radio, and Hinomaru (disk of the sun) is the flag that flew everywhere then, and has been the official flag of Japan since 1870, including during WWII. People often confuse the military flag (rising sun) as the national flag during WWII.

FYI, The music of the original anthem (1869) was written by a Brit, John Fenton, but the current musical score was created later along with the vocal harmony written by a German.

incidentaly the words in Japanese are:

Kimigayo wa,
Chiyo ni yachiyo ni,
Sazare-ishi no,
Iwao to narite,
Koke no musu made,

:)

-Jack

OOPS, I forgot the English translation it is:

May the reign of the Emperor continue for a thousand, nay, eight thousand generations and for the eternity that it takes for small pebbles to grow into a great rock and become covered with moss.

damn hit enter too soon again :(

zippyfusenet- the translation that you believed was kimigayo is from another poem, known as the warriors song, or the song of the warrior I believe.

:)

oh and one more post, since I missed answering your question;

In 1999 the Japanese Diet LEGALLY adopted the flag and anthem, up until then they were used by custom and Imperial decree. Also, in the case of the flag they changed the proportions and centered the red disk on the field of white (it was actually slightly off center vertically).

Diverging off topic for a brief minute. If you want a "blood curdling" anthem, try "La Marseillaise" - the French National Anthem:

Let's go children of the fatherland,/The day of glory has arrived!/ Against us tyranny's /Bloody flag is raised! (repeat)/ In the countryside, do you hear /The roaring of these fierce soldiers? / They come right to our arms /To slit the throats of our sons, our friends!

Or, "Allouette", the children's song:

Lark, nice Lark (or Lark, lovely Lark) / Lark, I am going to pluck you / I am going to pluck your head, /I am going to pluck your head, /And the head, and the head, / O-o-o-o-oh

Ok, you have to admit, it sounds much better in French.

But, veering back into topic, Japan's collective psyche is a bit schizophrenic regarding war. There are numerous politicians who have caught flack from Korea or China for praising the military's successes of the past century. And every Prime Minister has to deal with official protests from those same country whenever he visits the military shrine that honors the war dead. But, their constitution specifically prohibited military deployment overseas - the current situation in Iraq caused a change so that humanitarian missions are excepted (troops in Iraq are engineers.)

Wyatt

Mexico's national anthem is a tad on the martial side also:

Mexicans, at the cry of battle

lend your swords and bridle;

and let the earth tremble at its centre

upon the roar of the cannon.

(repeat previous two lines)

Your forehead shall be girded, oh fatherland, with olive garlands

by the divine archangel of peace,

For in heaven your eternal destiny

has been written by the hand of God.

But should a foreign enemy

Profane your land with his sole,

Think, beloved fatherland, that heaven

gave you a soldier in each son.

CHORUS

Fatherland, fatherland, your children swear

to exhale their breath in your cause,

If the bugle in its belligerent tone

should call upon them to struggle with bravery.

For you the olive garlands!

For them a memory of glory!

For you a laurel of victory!

For them a tomb of honour!

I kinda like the mexican one - it's "we will fight them, but not abuse them". :)

And here I, as a Dane have two songs, our national anthem and our royal anthem. The national one, "Det er et yndigt land" translatres about thusly:

It is a beutiful country

The beech trees stand broad

Near the salty eastern beach (repeat)

It rolls in hill and valley

It's name is old Denmark

And it is Freya's hall (repeat)

- now that's fairly peaceful if you ask me. :) As for the royal anthem, it translates something like this:

King Christian stood by the tall mast

In smoke and steam

His weapon hammered so hard

That the head and helmet of goths burst (note - goth means german, here!)

Then every enemy sail and mast sunk

in smoke and steam!

Flee, the screamed, flee those who can!

Who can stand for Denmark's Christian?

Who stands for Denamrks Christian in battle?

- which is a bit more blood curdling and warlike. :)

-A.

Pandinus, thanks for that information, especially for correcting my mistakes.

Interesting competition for the most blood-curdling national anthem. I realize that many national anthems promote military glory. The Japanese 'Warrior's Song' that I quoted is unusual in the singer's determination to die himself, rather than to gloriously defeat the loathsome foreign foe. This is in keeping with the Bushi-do ethic, but I'm relieved to learn that it's not the current Japanese national anthem. I might be alarmed if the Tokyo School Board resumed teaching Bushi-do in the primary schools.

Wyatt, 'Alouette' (and it's near relative, 'Mon merle') are not children's songs, they're voyageur paddling songs.

Autochton, if "Kong Kristian" is the royal, rather than the natiaonal anthem, why is it used by the Danish teams at the Olympics?

All three verses of the USA national anthem are overtly militaristic, especially the third ("Then conquer we must, for our cause it is just"). "O Canada" has its moments, albeit defensively ("We stand on guard for thee"). Please tell me there aren't any warlike verses to "God Save the Queen." And we need not mention Australia's almost-national anthem about a thief waiting for the posse to catch up with him, "Waltzing Matilda."

But we don't need to go to "Alouette" for bloodthirstiness in children's rhymes. Consider these cheery thoughts that we English-speakers sing our babies to sleep with, without thinking about what we're saying:

Ladybug, ladybug, fly away home
Your house is on fire, your children will burn

Rockabye baby, on the treetop
When the wind blows, the cradle will rock
When the bough breaks, the cradle will fall
And down will come baby, cradle and all

And "Ring around the rosie" is a celebration of the bubonic plague!

rmaker: Sometimes a host nation screws up and plays the wrong song. This is especially fun at football (soccer) games, where the Danish supporters (however few might be there) usually sing "Det er et Yndigt Land" loud enough to drown out the orchestra. :) The correct song is "Yndigt Land", not "Kong Christian". The latter is appropriate for various other matters, however, and I believe it is used in international military sports events. :)

-A.

Pandinus -- 'In 1999 the Japanese Diet LEGALLY adopted the flag and anthem, up until then they were used by custom and Imperial decree. Also, in the case of the flag they changed the proportions and centered the red disk on the field of white (it was actually slightly off center vertically)'.

If I recall correctly, it also used to be a different shape, 7:10 instead of the usual 2:3. Has that been changed too?

sirlancelot- yes you're correct, it's a different shape now that's what I meant by "changed the proportions", now it's 2:3 like most other national flags.