"Who skirmishes in your French Ligne/Legere?" Topic

When your French infantry units need some models to skirmish in front of the unit, do you generally use:

1) the unit's voltigeurs
2) the unit's elites (so both voltigeurs and grenadiers/carabiniers)
3) just the fusiliers/chasseurs

?

Thanks.

My figures are based for In The Grand Manner so there are dedicated skirmisher figures representing the unit's light company.

1) the unit's voltigeurs
That's what they were trained for.

Depending on the period your forces are built to represent (or the theatre in which you are fighting), the grenadier company was very often absent having been used to form a converged grenadier formation.

Certainly the voltigeur company was intended to perform this role, and customarily could do so quite well without additional reinforcements on the skirmish line, though during the campaigns after the great training period on the channel coast, any of the line companies could perform this role, but the French, being invariably on the attack, were relying on the ligne formations fighting formed

Mark

I use a mix if I can find the right figures. Yes the voltigeurs were trained specifically for skirmishing but in reality all French companies in a battalion were used for skirmishing. With the exception of the grenadier companies, it seems like a waste to use those guys as skirmishers but I bet it was done on occasion.

Voltigeurs only, or them and the grenadiers. For two reasons:

1) Pulling out fusiliers or chasseurs would disorder the line or column, on the tabletop as much as in reral life, while the flank companies come from the, err, flanks of a line, resp. the rear of a column

2) Since the grenadiers tended to be the more experienced soldiers, it would make sense to use them to reinforce or replace the voltigeurs if required, while keeping the centre companies with their share of new recruits in close order (i.e. under close supervision).

I seem to recall reading that this was also the practice in the French army prior to the Revolution.

So to answer the OP's implied question, figures in skirmishing poses should probably be produced first and foremost with voltigeur details, then with grenadier details for periods where these differ (though an "advancing" pose will cover most uses for grenadiers), and only then, if at all, in fusilier uniforms.

I would use skirmishing voltigeurs for the legere battalions, that is models in skirmish mode whilst leaving the marching models as part of the battalion.

Model Grenadier and Carabiniers in skirmish mode would be useful to provide skirmish figures for combined grenadier battalions.

all could skirmish, as for line infantry as well

The third rank was sometimes used as skirmishers, Davout apparently gave this order in 1812 for units in his corps. This solved some problems of taking away a company in certain drill evolutions. Also, don't forget that although there were voltuguers in each company it wa also possible that the brigade or divisional commander would chose a single battalion to break up and act as skirmishers for the entire brigade or division. Soult at Austerlitz is an example if memory serves. He had a single battalion of light infantry serve as an entire divisions skirmisher screen.

I'm with Musketier. My ligne voltiguers are mounted separately just so I can use them to skirmish. So are the ligne grenadiers, and if needed they will help out.

I mount all of the legere figures for skirmish so I can switch back and forth from tirailleur en bataille to tirailleur de combat. And use sabots when they go to attack columns.

I agree with von Winterfeldt & forwardmarchstudios. Even in the Allied armies random line troops did skirmish, the Russians sent men from musketeer battalions forward at Friedland to combat Lannes' left. It wasn't that the French were the only ones who sent line troops forward as skirmishers, it was how much better they were at it.

Cheers,

The Bandit

Dear Members of the Forum

There must be a slight misunderstanding…Davout put a stop to the Battalion Commanders who attempted to use the third rank as skirmishers…not enough mass for a battalion of six pelotons when formed in a column.

Using the third rank from a battalion with eight pelotons has enough mass…

Just as a battalion that formed a colonne par compagnies which had skirmishers on the flanks, was also better suited with eight pelotons…if it detached the two elements from the third rank.

A Battalion composed of six pelotons would detach an entire peloton to be used as skirmishers when in a column formation. This way it was still able to form three divisions.

The first two divisions were formed with two pelotons, and the third division was formed with a single peloton centered behind the second division. But in accordance to the French military system…it has enough mass to qualify as a column.

Best Regards
Art

How were French Legere troops used on a battlefield?

Should they fight the same as any regiment de Ligne (my assumption) or could a whole battalion of them be employed as voltageurs?

Everyone required to by the battalion commander.

My French skirmishers are those Voltigeur chappies, why buy the figures otherwise?

All

I've got masses of voltiguers based in ones/twos or threes independent of my main units, which deploy as required.

I just remove the voltiguer companies from the main body of men when these figures are on the table

F

How were French Legere troops used on a battlefield?

Should they fight the same as any regiment de Ligne (my assumption) or could a whole battalion of them be employed as voltageurs?

Which Legere units and when? In general, Legere units led a division and corps in an advance, such as during Jena and Austerlitz campaigns.

In most cases the French would first deploy the light infantry specialists, whether ligne or legere. These would be supported by the center companies as needed. And it was often needed to some extent.

As Art mentions, in Davout's 1811 instrctions, he rejects the use of the third rank. Yet, before the creation of the voltigeur companies in 1804, Ney, the year before, avocated the use of the third rank as skirmishers, arguing that two ranks are enough and still maintain the same frontage. It wasn't all that uniform during the 1792-1815 period, even among the French. It evolved.

For instance, until 1809, and even later in the Peninsula, it was common to have 'elite' battalions made up of grenadier companies of the line battalion AND the carabiniers of the leger battalions. And the French could combine all the voltigeur companies in with that composite battalion as they did at Vimeiro. Most books will assume that elite companies are just grenadiers…

Which means until 1809, if there are elite battalions present, any skirmishers mentioned with the center companies of the battalion have to be from the center companies.

Even in 1815, you see the Legere being used in the traditional role of a light unit. At Waterloo, the Legere are heavily engaged at the Hougoumont and surrounding woods, while the British send their light companies to defend it.

As far as I can see, limiting a Napoleonic force to just skirmishing with their specialist companies isn't what happened in most all cases.

"limiting a Napoleonic force to just skirmishing with their specialist companies isn't what happened in most all cases"

The original question was "some models to skirmish in front of the unit" in a wargame, and my reply referred to that situation.

Turning to history, combined skirmish battalions fronting the brigade or division would obviate the need for battalions behind to deploy skirmishers, while shaking out entire Légère battalions (if indeed it ever happened as such), is something else again.

The fight for Hougoumont, once the wood was cleared of Allied defenders early on, can hardly be equated with skirmishing. 1st Légère led the way because it was facing that sector of the French front, not because it was sent there as skirmish specialists. Just like the line units following it, it opened ranks to move through the wood (which had very little undergrowth), then attempted to reform in the killing ground before the garden wall in order to attack the position.

in that case – the voltigeur comapny (some models to skirmish in front of the unit)

The original question was "some models to skirmish in front of the unit" in a wargame, and my reply referred to that situation.

Musketier:
I was responding to Augie's questions, which I quoted, not your posts.

So to answer the OP's implied question, figures in skirmishing poses should probably be produced first and foremost with voltigeur details, then with grenadier details for periods where these differ (though an "advancing" pose will cover most uses for grenadiers), and only then, if at all, in fusilier uniforms.

If that is all the rules allow, voltigeurs and then maybe grenadiers for skirmishers, then yes, that certainly is the way I'd do it.

Turning to history, combined skirmish battalions fronting the brigade or division would obviate the need for battalions behind to deploy skirmishers, while shaking out entire Légère battalions (if indeed it ever happened as such), is something else again.

Actually, both of those situations happened…far more than you would think. However, for all nations it was often sending out multiple center companies instead of entire battalions dispersing, though that happened too.

Here are a few of many examples:
1. According to its colonel, the two battalions of the Prussian Hohenlohe regiment at Jena 1807 deployed their schutzen, 80-100 men, as skirmishers, then reinforced them several times with volunteers [minimum of 120 men] and then deployed two flank platoons [equivilent to a company] as skirmishers to fill the gap between them and the Hahn grenadier battalion. That is easily 25% of the regiment, all line troops from center companies, except the schutzen, who could be considered the equiviant of voltigeurs in principle.

2.At Bussaco, Wellington had all the light companies from the supporting brigades in the rear send their skirmishers forward of the main battleline where they skirmished all day, whether their parent brigades and battalions were engaged or not. [In Verner's Chronicle of the Rifle Brigade]

3.At Bussaco, Ney's two brigades completely dispersed as tirailleurs during their attack and fought that way for most of the battle. This is described in Pelet's memiors, Ney's Chief of staff during the battle. Skirmish activities aren't well known and far too often overlooked. Oman writes that Ney's brigades attacked in two columns.

4. During the same battle, Craufurd's Light Division [actually a brigade of 3,000] deployed half of its strength as skirmishers. Loison's Division not only deployed all their light infantry, but dispursed three more battalions all as skirmishers during their attack on Craufurd. [Verner's book again.]

5. At Lutzen, all three of the battalions of the Pavlov Grenadiers dispersed and defended a wood the entire day.[Mentioned in "From Flintlock to Rifle" by Steven Ross.

The fight for Hougoumont, once the wood was cleared of Allied defenders early on, can hardly be equated with skirmishing. 1st Légère led the way because it was facing that sector of the French front, not because it was sent there as skirmish specialists. Just like the line units following it, it opened ranks to move through the wood (which had very little undergrowth), then attempted to reform in the killing ground before the garden wall in order to attack the position.

Legere always 'led the way' in attacking rough ground, woods, villages etc. That was a traditional role for light infantry, which is why it was the Allied light infantry that defended it. And the line troops did follow, which was my point too.

John Keegan called Waterloo a ten hour skirmish puncuated by four attacks by formed troops, and that is over the entire battlefield. Any number of accounts provide evidence that a good portion of the fighting for the Hougoumont and the surrounding wood was indeed skirmishing during the battle.

McLaddie,
I see what you mean, although I would note that not every breaking of ranks due to terrain conditions is skirmishing.

On your last point, maybe our definitions of "skirmishing" do indeed differ? Successive assaults by several thousand men formed in companies and battalions are rather off the skirmish scale in my book.

Keegan's description I won't dispute, but isn't it equally applicable to most other battles of the period, illustrated not least by your examples? Skirmishing all along the front lines being after all what happens by default, in-between major attacks and countermoves.

On your last point, maybe our definitions of "skirmishing" do indeed differ? Successive assaults by several thousand men formed in companies and battalions are rather off the skirmish scale in my book.

You believe that companies and battalions weren't in any formation while skirmishing?

And of course, when and why units went to loose files, extended line and then a chain was 'fungible' to say the least.

Yes, Keegan's description could and probably did apply to many battles. The question is how many infantrymen could be and usually were dedicated to that form of fighting during a battle.

To get back to the OP's original question, it doesn't require very many men deployed in the skirmish chain to cover the frontage of a unit. A voltigeur company has the strength to do this unaided, as well as providing the supporting reserve (which we don't usually bother to represent on the wargames table).

As a battle progressed though, these voltigeurs would get "burned up" (exhausted, weapons clogged, etc) , and so replacements would be needed from the other companies. In battles with prolonged skirmishing, like Quatre Bras or Waterloo my guess is that most of the men would have taken their turn in the skirmish line at some point.

While rule mechanisms should make some effort to reflect the fact that most of the men could be cycled into the skirmish line, so far as figures are concerned, just the voltigeur company is enough. That is all I do.

Matthewgreen:

It was quite common for the skirmish lines to quickly expend their ammo, even experienced units. The 17th Legere ran out of ammo at both Saalfeld and Jena, the entire regiment being pulled from the line.

The 'burned up' aspect was real and part of the reason for supports were necessary, to cycle troops through.

However, the real question for brigade and higher levels of command were how many men to commit to skirmishing, particularly if the enemy was pushing numbers at them, even as screen. That means that with those two factors, 'burn out' and matching the enemy's numbers, the real issue was how much a commander was willing to weaken the formed troops. It a primary trade-off and conundrum in battle, written about by many Allied and French officers, that is totally missing from most all wargames.

Just as skirmishing is a pain and feels 'fiddly' for little return for wargamers, it was much worse for contemporary commander.