"Bolt Action special rules. Historically grounded?" Topic

"I hope that you really mean that ;)"

I always say what I mean, dude!

Hi Quadratus, I don't play Bolt Action, but I'm not sure why you appear to be so intent on trying to downplay the apparent Gurkhas' historical prowess. I can't point to a specific written source, but my reading over the years seems to leave me with an impression that these guys were very good.

Not trying to downplay the Gurkhas at all. But you can read about many units that excelled at close combat fighting. And nobody has produced anything more than anecdotal evidence to prove the superior skill of the Gurkha (maybe tallied successful close combat encounters vs. failed assaults)

My beef is assigning a special rule that 1/2's the combat abilities of anyone fighting the Gurkhas.

I am pretty sure I recall him mentioning about a fear of the Gurkhas with stories or possibly first hand experience with finding sentries that had been quietly beheaded.

Again these type of stories are ubiquitous. I knew a dish washer who fought in the Canadian army during WW2 and used to tell me about the guys he killed with his knife. The French Foreign Legion has a pretty strong reputation for brutality and ruthlessness too. The stories are endless.

I play Crossfire and have never use Ghurkas, but I imagine I'd give them a +1 in close combat resolution.

I have no problem with games systems giving unit the edge in combat due to reputation or status, but the Gurkhas get to halve enemy dice in combat as well as taking other British national rules that make them demonic supermen in close quarters fighting.

" And nobody has produced anything more than anecdotal evidence to prove the superior skill of the Gurkha (maybe tallied successful close combat encounters vs. failed assaults)"

If I can be bothered I will trawl through the relevant chapters in David Rowlands 'The Stress of Battle' which does do quantitiative analysis of combat effectiveness and does indeed discuss the Ghurkas.

NOOO! Not evidence to disprove my theories ;)

I was an 18 year old officer cadet from RMC and was a guest in his house. I wasn't about to call him a liar or even suspect it. It's easier to do so when you don't know the person, I guess.

Not calling ANYONE a liar. I am stating that EVERY major branch has the same story about their abilities. It is not specific to the Gurkha to be good at close combat.

Ok, it is in chapter 6, Heroism and combat degradation. Amongst much other quantitative data there is a comparison of gallantry awards per Kia, and Ghurka regiments aggregate to around 1.6 more than British regiments. There is a commentary on various writings about the Ghurkas including those of Lionel Caplan whose thesis is that western perceptions have created a favourable bias towards their martial skill.

Finally there is a useful table of attacker defender loss rates in both world wars for British vs ghurka units, and a table of kill rates per contact and kills per battalion per year in malaya. In the world wars ghurka combat superiority was around 1.62, and in Malaya, around 1.59, all compared to British units.

Not quite twice as good as in BA, but a somewhat greater margin than dupuys 1.2 combat superiority for ww2 Germans.

Martin,

Thanks for your post. Led me to interesting articles based off of Caplan's book.

link

Seems like the British themselves touted the Gurkha as a martial race, but at the same time treated them as "less than European"

Does a higher medal ratio prove anything though? :)

Does a higher medal ratio prove anything though?

Proves a greater willingness to do the crazy stuff required to earn said medals, assuming the same damnfool officers saying "they just did their job" and not wanting to award medals.

As far as the SMLE rate of fire goes, I've handled several Mausers, a Moisin, and the SMLE. The SMLE is faster to shoot than any of the others, the bolt handle is in a much better location for fast shooting. I haven't acquired a Garand for my collection yet, so I don't have a personal comparison to make. But Gunny Ermy does. He shot a Garand head-to-head with another gent with an SMLE, and they're pretty close. The 5-round chargers really slow down the reload, compared to the 8-round enblock clip.

But when the minimum standard for the Mad Minute drill is 20 rounds ON TARGET (12" target at 300yds, at that!) in one minute, well, that's one heck of a rate of fire that a group of trained riflemen can put down. Makes sense that the WW1 Krauts reported contact with a machinegun when it was only a section of riflemen.

If one man with a SMLE can put down one shot every other second, a section of 7-8 punt that rate of fire up to 120 rounds a minute. More importantly, that's an evil initial burst of fire, which is what did most of the initial killing.

Almost forgot. In a unit where all troops are aggressive, it makes a possibility for raising the bar for awards. What would rate a Bronze Star in a normal unit might not earn it in a unit with a reputation for fierce fighters.

My question about medals was more global. Are the criteria for awards the same between all nations during WW2?

I suspect my copy of "Try not to laugh, Sergeant-Major" has fulfilled one of the qualifying criteria for a good book by being lent and never returned. However, ISTR that there was somewhere in that book an anecdote definitively proving the superiority of Johnny Gurhka in close combat. The incident occurred in a bar somewhere in Germany, during the days of BAOR. The bar is being wrecked by a terrific running fight between a group of Royal Marines and a group of Paras; the authors are trying to stay out of the way, and a group of Gurkhas are also present, watching and smiling, but showing no inclination to join in the mayhem. Briefly gaining the attention of a Marine between the Marine's being knocked to the floor and getting back into the fight, one of the authors asked him "Why aren't the Gurkhas in this fight?", to which the reply was something like "We're not stupid -- Paras is one thing, but get into a scrap with those lads and you'll find yourself 38p a slice at Sainsbury's the next day".

I also recall that the bloke who taught me how to keep a bar had been a PTI in 3 Para, and he reckoned he would happily take on anyone in the world, except, specifically, Gurkhas.

If you're not prepared to believe half-remembered stories from lost books, and what a man in a pub told me, then your requirements for evidence are more demanding than most people's.

All the best,

John.

My old Para PT Sargeant mate used to love telling stories about training Ghurkas to jump out of planes.

Apparently they would only jump when the plane was 100ft off the ground, and when he replied "but your 'chutes wont open" they of course replied "Oh… we get parachutes!".

Or the one from a Falklands veteran I know who swears blind he was having a brew in a slit trench when an approaching officer toff asked him if he'd seen any ghurkas. Off course they hadnt, but later heard the Ghurkas were found trying to find a boat to get to Argentina in…

Both tales were not jibs at them, but told to show the sheer devotion and bravery that Ghurkas are reknowned for.

Both are of course apocraphal tales, but show the regard in which others in the British Army hold the Ghurkas.

"When we were engaged in the many wars in India, the Gurkha proved themselves our most formidable enemies, as since they have proved themselves most invaluable allies. Brave as lions, active as monkeys, and fierce as tigers, the lithe wiry little men came leaping over the ground to attack moving so quickly, and keeping so far apart from each other, the musketry was no use against them. When they came near the soldiers, they suddenly crouched to the ground, dive under the bayonets, struck upwards at the men with their Khukuris or Kukris, ripping them open with a single blow, and then, after having done all the mischief in their power, darting off as rapidly as they had come. Until our men learned this mode of attack they were greatly discomfited by their little opponents, who got under their weapons, cutting or slashing with knives as sharp as razors, and often escaping unhurt from the midst of bayonets. They would also dash under the bellies of the officers' horses, rip them open with one blow of the Khukuris or Kukris, and aim another at the leg of the officer as he and his horse fell together."

(From Travels in India and Nepal by the Rev Wood, 1896)

"

Near Torcillino on the Asriatic front ex-mess orderly Jitbahadur Rai under going his first experience of battle, a smallish man even for a Gurkha, charged through the smoke of buring grass into a wood and cut down two Germans with his kukri. Unluckily they collapsed on top of him. As he lay under 350 pounds of German, a third gunner came on. Freeing his sword arm, Jiabahadur slashed at the German as he bent down and almost severed the arm above the elbow. Later, the ex-mess orderly was seen walking beside the stretcher bearing his third victim, his bloodstained kukri in one hand, patting the German's shoulder with the other and explaining in fluent Gurkhali that he had no intention of completing job."

"There was fierce fighting around Imphal. Rai and his men, who had already taken heavy casualties, were ordered to capture an area covered by the murderous fire of two machinegun posts, 200 yards apart, and an artillery position.

As every minute passed, Gurkhas were being cut down and Rai knew he had to attack fast. The first machine-gun post could only be approached by going up a hill in full view of the enemy. With men dying all around him, Rai stormed the post single-handed, killing three of the four crew.

Then Rai led his men towards the artillery position. Half of the Gurkhas were killed but he charged on, silencing the gun. With a tommy gun in one hand and a grenade in the other, he took on the second machine-gun position, killing all the enemies."

The story of the Parachures is in a book by a British officer who commanded Ghurkas, but I cant remember the author of the book. Outstanding read though by ine whowas there with them.

owen

Quadratus, medals are sometimes almost given out by lottery. it depends on who saw what. And the relationship between those two. I have both seen medals given that where emphaticly not deserved, aND PEOPLE NOT RECOMMENDED WHO SHOULD HAVE BEEN. aND THAT WQAS IN THE SAME UNIT.

Interesting stories about the Gurkha.

Does the unwillingness of the Royal Marines & Para's imply they are afraid the Gurkhas will pull out knives and escalate the fight to fatal levels? If not it seems strange that elite units would willingly acknowledge that some one is better than them at anything. Seems like the wrong mindset for elite units.

Wait until they come out with special characters.

The kukri wouldn't come out for such a minor disturbance. The Gurkhas are too well disciplined to get into a bar-room brawl anyway. That discipline is just one of the reasons why they're such formidable soldiers.

Don't forget that the Gurkhas are probably the closest thing to born warriors that exist in reality. They come from a background that breeds tough, hardy, resilient people with a high level of physical fitness. The British Army then gets to select the cream of the applicants (only the top 10% or so of applicants get in), a lot of the rest join the Indian Army. There are a lot of 'Gurkha families' where several generations serve & it's regarded as a great honour to do so. They're the best light infantry in the world, bar none.

And if you think these stories are made up: link
link

Don't forget that the Gurkhas are probably the closest thing to born warriors that exist in reality. They come from a background that breeds tough, hardy, resilient people with a high level of physical fitness.

Couldn't this be said of many people growing up in harsh climes?

The British Army then gets to select the cream of the applicants (only the top 10% or so of applicants get in.

Isn't this the case with most army's special forces?

There are a lot of 'Gurkha families' where several generations serve & it's regarded as a great honour to do so. They're the best light infantry in the world, bar none.

I am sure the Gurkha are excellent soldiers, but I think giving them the crown is basically an opinion, not a fact

And if you think these stories are made up

I don't think the stories are made up at all. But for every article of extreme bravery you post. I could post similar ones for different units from different countries. I can also talk about the rigorous training for those same units.

link

link

And if you think these stories are made up

You've never met a Gurkha have you? BTW the Gurkhas AREN'T special forces!

Shame really that the well-intentioned Ms Lumley and her campaign for equal pay, pensions and conditions will probably mean fewer Ghurka btns in the long term.
If they cost the same as UK units then they will be closer to the top of the list for potential cuts.
I doubt they will still exist in 30 years time.