"The Doom That Came To Atlantic City: Project Terminated" Topic

Because KickStarter is not a store.

I think it should be pretty obvious, but don't back projects from creators that don't already have business experience. Even those who do aren't a guarantee you'll get your reward.

Also, for boardgames, check the discount. Most of them aren't much better than OLGS. Might as well wait until they hit the stores so you know you will get the product!

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Also see Keith Baker, the designer, comments on his blog:
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That's sad to hear. But what you say about board games is true -- you're paying nearly the same price as you would in a store, and you have a guarantee you get what you're paying for. Guess I'll never understand crowdfunding.

Pretty much all board game pre-orders have prices that are roughly what you can get if you wait and order from an online store. The thing is if everyone does that, the game will never get produced.

So … he asks for $35 USDK, gets $122 USDK … and then "can't complete the project?" Seriously? I will never understand crowd sourcing.

"Eventually, I hope to refund everyone."

You've gotta be kidding. If nothing was produced, and you're nearly $100 USDK over what you asked for, then where is the cash?

Hate to think the worst of people, but many of these "projects" seems a racket to me.

Your mileage may vary. Backed Sedition Wars and all was well.

Am backing All Quite on the Martian Front and Empress Minis modern KS. All look good so far (fingers crossed)

That's the problem with Kickstarter. If you want to scam, you only have to make it "look good". There's no way to really know, to audit, etc.

There are very good KSs, but the spending behavior caused by KS is like sitting duck to professional scammers.

If you choose to not do any research into the people you are backing and just throw money at a concept then you are really rolling the dice.

The best chance of success is to back people who have a solid background in doing what they are proposing or who have demonstrated they have gotten pretty far down the path to produce the item already. Or at least give frequent updates on the progress they are making while the funding is being solicited. You can always back out if you don't feel comfortable with what you are seeing during the funding period.

The other thing to do is to make sure you understand the character of those people. The UpFront KS project is a great example of that.

I only back people with a strong past history and industry background or that I know personally and so far all has been well.

In relation to this failed attempt, people should have known better when he was showing pictures of a Monopoly board. He was just asking to get sued.

The problem is, that the designer of the game is actually has the industry background. It's the publisher who's the crook.

Your mileage may vary. Backed Sedition Wars and all was well.

So did I. Wave two was still delayed. If it arrives by the current August date then things went okay, but not really well. If it's delayed again, then I'm going to say it went flat-out badly.

Don't even get me started on Ogre.

Ogre is HUGE. And it also doesn't have the economy of plastic.

I'm actually surprised we don't see this sort of thing more often. There are certainly scammers out there, but there are many more who don't have the wherewithall to build and run a business.

Yeah, I'd be curious to see how other areas of KS do in terms of fulfilling rewards.

I'm still waiting for a 'big' one to crash, not that this example of $120 USDK isn't big but more in the $700 USDK and up range.

Ogre will get released, eventually, no doubt about that. SJ has his company and personal reputation riding on it. He also has Munchkin, and that's his ace up his sleeve.

So wait a second. This "Atlantic City" thing, whatever that is, took in $122,000 USD and people have already paid? And now there is nothing, and no one know if they get their money back? It only needed $35,000 USD and now it is cancelled?
I have not funded any Kickstarter projects so far and I think I will continue to be a non-funder.

Yep – KS is taking a punt. I'm in for one small one, and one big one, both due around the end of the year, but frankly I'd advise against KS if you're not (a) prepared to treat delays as par for the course and on-time delivery a bonus, and (b) aware that there is always a chance of it going belly-up and you walking away with nothing…. I'm pretty confident in both of the ones I've put money into, because the makers are known quantities with a track record, but backing a KS is inherently risky to some extent.

I've only stumped up for 1 KS project so far, and I'm confident that those involved will deliver, but …. I put my cash up knowing I could be waving it bye-bye.

This might be the biggest crash I've seen out of KS yet (crash as in total failure to deliver, not just delays). Personally I'm very enthusiastic about KS but I am pretty careful about what I back and how much I back it for (pretty small amounts generally); haven't been burned yet.

Sadly, a crash on a giant gaming project is inevitable, and then KS is going to be blackballed. Which is a shame, since there are plenty of great small projects that might not get made any other way. And a lot of the infamous delays are first-time projects that were far more successful than originally planned.

The RPG side of things is already going through the early stages of this; LOTS of badly delayed or canceled projects; you're definitely seeing something of a re-entrenchment there.

-Will

Reading a bit more information on this, it looks like Eric, the publisher (as opposed to the game designer or artist), basically decided the haul was so good he was going to launch a game company instead of just getting the game published. And then Eric managed to all of the money away. Even if establishing a game company was really the plan, it's still fraud; publishing the game was the goal of the KS project, not creating a new company. Basically a worst case scenario; take the money, run off and do something other than you told the backers you were going to do with it, and then fail at that too.

-Will

Read back in the kickstarter comments (page 2), the publisher has pulled the same scam before, when given $20,000 USD to develop a computer game he spent the majority of his cash on amazon orders then folded… Some folks never change do they?

I'm confused…
And I am not trolling here, just wondering…

Isn't KS an 'investment', just like you would at investing at a stock market? Or putting some money on your lucky number at a roulette table? Its a gamble, right? It may or may not happen.
You just have to hope that it will all work out?
Or MUST the items be produced?

I thought that KS terms of service said that you must either produce your product, or give a full refund. And since this guy is saying that he will 'try' seems like the BBB outta be involved.

I know that Indiegogo is different. Depending on how the creator sets it up, you may or may not get the funding back if it does not 'fund'.

Some existing companies seem to use KS as a 'pre-order', as they already have the models/molds/game made, and now they want some 'pre-cash' before it hits the stores. I have no issues with this, BTW…

But some are just a neat idea from an unknown person/group/company and that they need funding to 'get off the ground'. It seems like that is what KS should really be about, IMO.

Or am I just totally off base on this?

Again, not trolling. I just really don't know.

And yea… This guy seems to be scamming the investors on this one. He did it before, and he did it again…

> Or MUST the items be produced?

They do not have to be produced. However, there are other rules in place, to take some money to attempt to do project X and instead using it for project Y is almost certainly fraud (if not it should be! if it is fraud for kickstarters, I have no idea).

The KS terms of service for projects state that backer rewards must be shipped or refunds must be given; otherwise there is a breach of contract and the backers are entitled to sue, report you to the BBB, etc. The terms of service were written specifically to create a legal breach if rewards are not met.

That's the risk of using KS for a gaming project where the rewards are the end product; if your project folds up, like this one did, you are still legally on the hook to your backers. Yes, one of them actually has to start a legal process against you, but per what you sign off on when you start a KS project they do have a valid case (ie, there was a contract, you broke it). It's not a drop everything and walk away with no consequences scenario, despite what some have implied in the past.

-Will

What he said….

"Is a creator legally obligated to fulfill the promises of their project?

Yes. Kickstarter's Terms of Use require creators to fulfill all rewards of their project or refund any backer whose reward they do not or cannot fulfill. (This is what creators see before they launch.) We crafted these terms to create a legal requirement for creators to follow through on their projects, and to give backers a recourse if they don't. We hope that backers will consider using this provision only in cases where they feel that a creator has not made a good faith effort to complete the project and fulfill."

From: link

So there's a contract in place if you want to go down the litigation road, although obviously that's a whole heap of hassle, and well, if they've really spent the money….

Another interesting bit in the comments on the KS page is that the creator was charging for shipping – so where did that money go if nothing was produced to be shipped (i.e. why wasn't it reserved for actual shipping).

From what I am reading on the comments section this KS campaign was actually run to completion before Kickstarter changed their terms of service to the produce or refund model. No clue what that means for anything?

God, the comments section paints a pretty grim picture. If even half of them are true, the phone at the Oregon State Attorney General's office must be ringing off the hook with calls from disgruntled backers.

Mostly video games, but TotalBiscuit comments on KS and mentions Doom, all with a lovely British accent!

YouTube link

I'd rather pay retail…I can't believe I said that….

Further news on this… and a big shout-out to the fantastic guys at Cryptozoic!

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I have never before seen an internet related gimmick that has so much potential for risk, thievery, convulted reasoning, abuse. MOstly though people are not using the concept as it was intended. Its being used as a form of commerce more than anything.

You realize the entire Internet isn't being used as intended and has much potential for risk, thievery, etc?

As in most things, it mostly works with a few exceptions. People shouldn't get so caught up in those exceptions and participate or not as you see fit. But keep in mind, a lot of things don't get made if everyone waits for the other guy to pony up the initial money.