"Assistant LMG gunners for Bolt Action" Topic

I was very fortunate recently. I managed to acquire some 83 Soviet figures at a very good price. I haven't bought a copy of the rules yet. I will do so as soon as I can.
I'm assembling the figs. and I'd like to know if I should make up assistant gunners for my LMGs.
Thanks,
Robby

Yes, loaders are in the rules.

Thanks, I thought they might be. I'll assemble some.

Bear in mind the duty of assistant/ammo loader is exactly that, a DUTY, and not a specific model. So your NCO with SMG could bs assistant until they close the gap, then just say another model is the loader. A loader may not fire.

Why would your NCO be the loader, surely they have much better things to do?

Why would your NCO be the loader

Most often the NCO has a SMG which can't shoot at long ranges. By having the NCO be the loader you don't lose the firepower from a rifleman.

At short ranges you can switch and have NCO shoot and drop the rifle shot.

If you use an otherwise idle model, the 20 points is just about right.

Talk about gaming the rules. Is there any penalty for your NCO not providing any leadership to the squad?

Yeah, really. Do the rules encourage that sort of play?

yes the rules actively encourage you to use the smg guy as the loader when beyond 10 inch range.

remember a game problem is that lmg's are very expensive and almost useless, anything that gives them any value is a good thing.

Personally i would just alow them to fire 1 person but that's me :)

Is there any penalty for your NCO not providing any leadership to the squad?

If the squad lacks an NCO there is a -1 penalty but that wouldn't apply here.

Overall it seems perfectly reasonable for an NCO to show leadership by manning the LMG when he can't shoot. OR…perhaps this is a game manifestation of the NCO grabbing the loader's rifle for a few shots. The net output of firepower is the same.

In our games we just decide which model isn't shooting.

No, it is completely unreasonable for an NCO to be a loader and it does show leadership; it shows a flaw in the rules.

The main issue with the MG rules in BA, and players of Bolt Action would agree with you, is that to use an MG one other model sacrifices their ability to shoot as they act as the loader. The issue should be that nobody needs to act as the loader, UNLESS it is a belt fed MG. Then you need one other to act as loader as a dedicated model, nit any model. In that case however the MG RoF should be increased by a reasonable amount to reflect their assisting of the gunner.

In BA the death of the NCO imposes a -1 to the leadership value of the unit, but there's no real command and control in the game, which is a pity. Its a fun system, but everyone knows its at the lighter end of the historical representation scale.

I agree the MG rules in Bolt Action, when looked at in isolation are slightly flawed. Can't say it's anything to get worked up about but another few dice of firepower would be more 'realistic'.

Personally I like games of manoeuvre and so can appreciate the game design to limit MG's. I also like the fact that the issue has been acknowledged by the designers and is currently under consideration.

I think the MG rules work fine in BA. We have played a lot of games down at Penarth now and they balance out. Where the problem comes is if you are gaming the rules too much.

No way would we go for NCO as loader. We just use squad member (Often rifle armed) to act as loader and ammo carrier. Seems more realistic and they revert to simple rifle man back in squad if MG bites the dust and they survive.

Overall I like the feel of the rules. There are some gaps and ananomalies but no rules are perfect and no rules have I found something i didn't like about them. Its all about balance and at this scale they are fast, desicive, quick and easy to get into for beginners and non WW2 addicts

Stew

The MG 42 was a fearsome thing, most of the section were there to carry its ammunition they didn't really need to do much more than that most of the time . Even the British infantry carried bren mags in their pouches and their rifle ammunition in bandoliers. The only people exempt from being servants to the section LMG were the NCOs
the number 2 was a pretty important member of the team, changing barrels of the LMG was vital, and in action common.The sub section NCO, equivalent of the lance corporal spotted and covered the other two members.and would act as a number 2 or even the gunner if they were casualties. The section leader, a corporal or the equivalent , ran the section.His command , efficiency and experience were crucial features in a section's success..His SMG may be regarded as a badge of rank. as much as being an active weapon..viscous things section LMGs and the Germans had a habit of issuing two to a section.It has been said that after artillery the MG42 killed and wounded more people than any other weapon on the battlefield in WWII.
truly fearsome.

MG rules in Bolt Action, when looked at in isolation are slightly flawed

I once thought that too, but it didn't really turn out that way, especially since the NCO can be the loader.

The only time the +20 for the LMG is a bad "deal" is if you add two men (12 total) but not all lists allow that.

It's the Assault Rifle that needs to cost +10.

At the end of the day, when you've bought the rules then you and your mates can play them however you want. Personally, the only time I can see the squad NCO acting as a number 2 would be when he no longer had a squad to control. Until then he commanded the squad. I don't suppose it's any worse than a medic jumping into a halftrack to use its MMG! We don't allow such occurrences at our club but that's our decision.

Just because the rules don't specifically forbid it, to say they actively encourage the use of the NCO as a loader is mischievous at best and quite misleading. The rulewriters may well have assumed that players would be more familiar with the duties of a squad NCO.

remember a game problem is that lmg's are very expensive and almost useless, anything that gives them any value is a good thing.

That's why the Germans tried to put two in each squad as the war progressed!

(I was actually thinking of buying the rules, but now it doesn't seem likely!)

I totally disagree about LMG's being 'almost useless' in BA. In my experience (over some 40-50 games)they are almost always the first thing taken out by the opposing player if he gets an 'exceptional hit' on the squad. That's not the action you would take against a weapon that was almost useless.
Also there is no compulsion to take an LMG so if you don't think it's worth paying the points for then leave it behind and take a couple of riflemen (or whatever) instead. Personally, I've not seen any squad start the game without one as all the players I know want that extra firepower and range.
I can understand players getting frustrated after poor dice throws in some games – been there myself – and cursing their LMG BUT for every one of those situations I've had 3 or 4 where my LMG has performed solidly, frustrating the enemy with Pins and casualties.

In TW&T the gun group for, say, the British is the L/Cp, Gunner and loader. They act as a group- you don't fire them seperately. If one of the crew dies we let the NCO step up, but the idea that the lance jack would go "I'll load so you can use your rifle" is silly.

Okay I know this is an old thread but I came across it and ill give my two cents for anyone else that ends up reading this like I did.

First of all I'm a former US Marine Infantry NCO and a combat veteran. I can tell you from experience that the LMG in a squad is the primary base if fire and least mobile asset of a squad. As an NCO in a squad leader billet it is your job to direct the fire and maneuver of your squad and more often than not that involves directly adjusting you squads fire and observing the effect on the enemy. Infantry squads spread load the heavy belt ammunition between the whole squad including the squad leader and at any time you can find yourself running ammunition or assisting in a barrel change with the LMG gunner. LMG gunners are trained to operate the entire weapon system by themselves and a dedicated A-Gunner is not required.

So in conclusion it is entirely plausible and likely that an NCO would assist and LMG gunner throughout a firefight since he will be directly engaging the enemy less often with his weapon than the rifleman in the squad.

Also the shot difference between the LMG and the MMG is not representative of the weapons rate of fire but of the ability to fire the weapon effective on a bi pod vs locked down on a tri pod. I have fired the M-240 MMG on both the bi pod and the tripod and I garantee the weapon has the same rate of fire but is far more accurate while mounted on the bi pod and no easier or harder to load either way.

More accurate while mounted on a tripod vs deployed on bipod*