"HMS Macedonian and USS United States" Topic

Here is a pretty ambitious and very impressive diorama of the surrender of Macedonian to United States, in 1:180 scale, by Kenneth Britten. Wow!

More pictures here: link

A very nice model that seems to accurately reflect the results of the battle which was very one sided. The USS United States was a Napoleonic equivalent of a pocket battleship carrying a much heavier armament than was normally found in a frigate.

A comparison of the 2 ships shows the following

USS United States ; 56 guns Broadside 864 pounds Crew 428 Casualties 7 Killed 5 wounded
HMS Macedonian 38 guns 528 pound broadside 301 crew 43killed 71 wounded.

Very impressive models.

Yes, statistically the United States should win that engagement but the Royal Navy had made a habit of beating big frigates armed with 24 pounders previously else the Guerriere, Macedonian and Java would have not eagerly accepted action. Still, it is a testimate to Decatur's skill that casualties were so low.

Plus, although I can't find a specific reference I'm sure the Macedonian was over-gunned like all frigates. The Shannon and Cheasapeake for example, though both rated 38s, mounted 46 and 49 guns at the time of their engagement.

Both ships were "overgunned" since carronades were considered "extras". Mapleleaf's data above is close to what I have (from Andrew Lambert's recent book)

Macedonian:
46 guns, broadside weight 561lb, displacement 1081 tons, crew 377

United States:
54 guns, broadside weight 876lb, displacement 1533 tons, crew 478

The numbers of guns and the broadside weight include the carronades.

I am always impressed by the surprisingly low casualties in these sea battles, compared to the accounting used in our naval sail wargames. In this example it is true that the Macedonian had about 1/3 hurt, but in a lot of the naval battles the casualties were 10% or so when a ship struck.

1968billsfan

I always read casualties as crew effectiveness, not simply killed or wounded.

Billsfan, I've also been surprised sometimes by casualty rates. It's interesting to contemplate what it must have been like to be aboard one of those ships and imagine how the crews reach the point where they are no longer willing to fight.

I always have trouble imagining the force group morale must have, never having been a member of the military or found myself in a dangerous situation in a group. I don't imagine that 'team spirit' in a sports team or a work environment really comes close to approximating the situation.

For the crew of Macedonian, it must have been awfully frightening to see the effectiveness, especially the maneuverability of the ship, degrade as it was increasingly dismasted, while United States continued comparatively unharmed. They must have known that only greater carnage could lie ahead.

IIRC, it wasn't until after the capture of the Macedonian that the Royal Navy rethought their stance that any RN frigate was the better of any other nations, and was expected/required to offer battle if they caught another frigate alone. Failure to accept/offer battle would likely get the commanding officer relieved for cowardice!

The standing order was eventually changed to 'do NOT engage USN ships without a 4:1 advantage'!

Almost forgot: I think the USN's 44s were the only time in history that the 'battlecruiser' concept actually worked. They were fast enough to outrun anything that could seriously hurt them, and well enough armed that they could outshoot anything they could catch!

2:1 rather than 4:1, I think :-)

The battlecruiser concept was to sacrifice armour protection in favour of speed, the Humphreys frigates do not conform as that the difference in displacement (often overlooked) compared to Macedonian shows.

Their much heavier build standard compared to other 24 pdr frigates that the RN had already met and overcome (possible due to abundant excellent raw materials and the low numbers being constructed) gave them an ability to resist damage assuming the 18-pdr could close to effective range.

The US frigates were excellently handled during these engagements (in particular by Decatur who kept the battle in the zone where he held all the aces in a very modern manner).

Best regards,

Mark Barker
The Inshore Squadron

PS, standard RN practice over 200 years when faced with individually superior ships (like Bismarck) – when outclassed, engage in superior numbers. No point chucking your ship away on a point of honour …

American frigates were built of southern live oak which is twice as strong as the oak the RN could get. It is unique to the southern US and Central America.

It is a protected tree. Mystic CT restores old sailing ships and get their live oak from trees damaged from our recent spat of hurricanes. Otherwise it is not readily available today commercially

I also find the comparison between British and American frigates interesting. The US built its frigates mainly in response to the Barbary pirates. Not with concern for the RN. They were distant station flagships, serving a roll reserved by the older two decker 4th rates in established navies.

Ships are designed based on their perceived missions.

2:1 rather than 4:1, I think :-)

Coulda sworn it was 4:1, but it's been a while since I read through the naval war of 1812. Sadly, Real Life(tm) got in the way of my refighting the naval encounters of the War of 1812 for the 200th anniversary.

I still plan on putting the forces together, and building them for each major encounter. For example, the President will be low in the water and carrying every single scrap of canvas, as opposed to the Constitution running at 'battle sail'.

It was 2:1 – and that wasn't actually always enough as the USF Constitution proved just after the treaty was signed:

link

Now, technically, neither of the British ships were even close to the power of the Constitution and even combined they were outclassed. The action was considered an exceptional demonstration of seamanship by the captain and crew of the Constitution…

Actually neither of them were frigates at all, Cyane being a 6th rate (normally referred to as a corvette in most other navies) and Levant a ship sloop built to match the US Frolic class.

Quite why this hoovering up of two minnows is seen as such a victory for a ship the size of Constitution has always puzzled me, but then I am a Brit !

The 2:1 ratio was sound, as shown on 3rd April 1814 when Constitution encountered the 38-gun 18-pdr frigates Junon and Tenedos.

Low on stores and needing to make port she did not offer battle but simply ran for it, which suggests that the US Captains also did not fancy trying their luck at 1:2.

Now that is worth setting up and trying out on the mapboard :-)

Mark Barker
The Inshore Squadron

Discretion is always the better part of valor!