"Did the troops of Holland c1807 fight anyone ?" Topic

Following on from my easy to paint thread, having now found my Blandford napoleonic uniform guides I see that in Holland they very sensible wore matching jackets and trousers, with maybe a pretty colour as the bib on white uniforms.

But, did they actually fight anyone dressed like this ? When Napoleon stole the Kingdom of Holland they had to wear French uniforms – for variety I'd rather not just paint up French troops as the troops of Holland.

"The Kingdom of Holland (1806–1810)

During Louis' reign an expeditionary force took part in the French campaigns in Germany during the War of the Fourth Coalition and the War of the Fifth Coalition, and a Dutch brigade was involved in the Peninsular War."

More links:
link and
link

Ah, that's good ! Thanks.

Were the Dutch soldiers unionized yet?

The Dutch line regiments faced dark green, and black, boxed the "renegade" Prussian VonSchill into Stralsund in 1809, and killed him. Westphalian troops were involved as well. The original Brunswick "black horde" managed to fight its way through them and escape to England, then were sent to Spain in different uniforms.

The second battalion of the 4 Dutch, and the first battaliom of the second Dutch formed a regiment in the German Division of the IVthe Corps for Spain. On with sky blue, the other rose.

The uniforms are not well represented in 28mm, having an odd square-bottomed lapel, and turnbacks cut away from the center of the bottom edge. Also, the shakos were narrower than the French, and had pompoms and plume on the left top side. The front of the shako bore the regimntal number, not a "plate."

GdeP

The army of the Kingdom of Holland took part in the 1806/1807 campaign where they were the left flank of the grande armee: siege of Hameln against Prussian troops, siege of Stralsund (against Sweden.The kurassiers and horse artillery took part at the battle of Freidland (as part of Marshall Mortiers' korps).
In 1809 they fought against Schill and against the British (invasion of Walcheren).
Of course a Dutch brigade was part of the German division in Spain

I believe in did get a bit rough down the Canal & Tulip on a Saturday night :-)

@Garde de Paris – thanks, that's really useful.

I'm aiming to paint up several small skirmish units mfor Drums & Shakos – but it'd be nice to have historically matched pairs of forces rather than complete fantasy.

I'll be using 20mm plastics – and am aiming for a "close enough for jazz" paint job & sculpt !

20th – any pics? Blog etc?

A particular battle you might look at is the Battle of Blaauwberg in South Africa circa 1806. Its Dutch regulars, militia, French Sailors/marines and some natives versus an invading British amphibious force. The Brits have Highlanders, foot, marines and sailors. Without looking at the obs both sides even have some small light cavalry forces. There are two accounts in back issues of Wargames Illustrated from the 80's. Also doing a web search will get some resulting info.

Regards,
Dale Wood

"The Dutch line regiments faced dark green, and black, boxed the "renegade" Prussian VonSchill into Stralsund in 1809, and killed him. Westphalian troops were involved as well. The original Brunswick "black horde" managed to fight its way through them and escape to England, then were sent to Spain in different uniforms."

I don't think any Dutch units saw action in the Schill revolt, although they were along for part of the ride.

The Dutch were part of Gratien's force that pursued Schill, and they stood outside the Stralsund fortifications while the Danes under Ewald actually broke in, and killed Schill and defeated the rebels on 31 May. (Subsequent images showing Schill battling it out, mano-a-mano with Dutch grenadiers (who weren't even present in that division) are a fiction.)

The Westphalians weren't involved in that action at all. The only Westphalian units to oppose Schill did so at the little "battle" of Dodendorf on 5 May, in which Schill's hussars broke them with their initial charge. The Westphalians disintegrated, with several hundred switching sides and joining Schill's rebels, and the rest making a run for it.

according to "Van de Weser tot de Weichsel" by MvdHoeven (Bataafse Leeuw 1994) the 9th RI attacked and took the Kiper gate of Stralsund and then, followed by the 6th RI went further into the town and fought troops of Schill. If they killed him is doubtfull.

I don't know what you mean that Dutch grenadiers weren't with the division; each dutch battalion had their grenadiers.

""Van de Weser tot de Weichsel" by MvdHoeven (Bataafse Leeuw 1994) the 9th RI attacked and took the Kiper gate of Stralsund and then, followed by the 6th RI went further into the town and fought troops of Schill. If they killed him is doubtfull."

Yeah, that book is problematic, though, because it makes a number of claims that don't add up. It was drawn from Col. Trip's memoirs, which he inflated because he was making a claim for the 10,000-franc reward for Schill's head, which Trip felt he'd been cheated on. So he exaggerated (that's the polite word for it) the role of his troops, and claimed that he and his cavalry had killed Schill. Trip's account then became the "official" Dutch version.

But it's full of holes. Most basically: the Dutch weren't even at the Knieper Gate. Gratien held them in front of the Tribsee Gate, as a diversion (which worked.)

The real attack came at the Knieper Gate, because Ewald's Danes were able to approach under cover of some woods, and thus weren't seen by the defenders until it was too late.

(In Stralsund today, there's a little memorial plaque at the Knieper Gate, marking the point where the "battle" happened.) Gratien officially recognized Ewald and the Danes for the action in his report.

When I did my book on this subject, I concluded that Schill was most likely shot in the back of the head by a Danish jäger. The last credible witness (Wm. A. von Mosch) recalled seeing Schill, apparently wounded, riding through the Johannisstraße (what is now the Schillstraße), pursued by the Danes.

Aside from that bullet in the back of his head, his body also had a stab wound, but it was very small and clean, suggesting that somebody poked him after he was dead, to make sure he was indeed dead. (Four surgeons participated in the autopsy, and two of their accounts still survive.)

I don't often get the chance to flog this book, so what the hell, here goes:

link

Also Löben Sels ( link ), historie of the dutch horse artillery link ,
and the memoires of JW vd Wetering ( link ) speak of dutch attacks.
As I can only rely on this kind of sources, I will rest the case

I'm afraid that the Dutch accounts of this action have a lot of problems with basic facts. For example, one of the ones that you cited (Wetering) claims:

"the King of Holland had issued a reward of 10,000 francs for the capture or killing of Schill."

But of course it wasn't the King of Holland who'd offered the reward; it was Jerome, the king of Westphalia.

It's possible that some Dutch troops saw action in the city. Once the defenses crumbled at the Knieper Gate, there was some scattered and confused fighting in the city. A number of wild stories and claims emerged later, mainly because Jerome had placed the 10,000-franc reward on Schill's head, so everybody wanted to claim that they'd been the ones who killed him.

But it was the Danes who broke through the rebel defenses and stormed Stralsund.

After Schill was killed, the surviving Schill'schen (commanded by Brünnow and Quistorp) broke out through the Frankish Gate, pushing aside a force of four Dutch cavalry SQNs and a battery of artillery, who were surprised by them, and fell back.

So some Dutch soldiers may have briefly seen a little action, but none of them were involved in the breakthrough at the Knieper Gate. Rather, theirs was a slightly embarrassing role, in which they failed to prevent the breakout of several hundred rebels, who then escaped into Prussia, and eventually to the fortress of Stargard.

@I did it all for the Lukhum

Could you please cite your sources. I'd love to read both sides of the story and form my own opinion.

Thanks.

"Could you please cite your sources."

Certainly. The Stadtarchiv Stralsund, and the Stralsund Historical Museum both have permanent Schill collections, in which I worked during 2007-8.

Many of the Westphalian papers (regarding Gratien's force, which was theoretically under Westphalian command) ended up in the Prussian State Archive in Berlin-Dahlem. Most of them are in HA.V. Königreich Westphalen. This includes a copy of Gratien's after-action report. Files regarding the fate of the various Prussian rebels in Schill's force are in HA.III, and the subsequent arrests and interrogations (which include a lot of de-briefing about the fighting) are in HA.I. (For example: HA, I, Nr.523/1 & 2: Volks-Unruhen im Königreich Westphalen.)

If you want precise Signatur #s for the files, I can provide some, but they number over a hundred, so this isn't the ideal place to list them all.

Memoirs of participants in the fighting at Stralsund include:

[anon] "Schill und dessen Charakter: War die Augenblick richtig gewählt, wo er versuchte, eine Insurrektion zu bewirken?" Zeitschrift für Kunst, Wissenschaft und Geschichte (Berlin: Ernst Siegfried Mittler, 1829. (1)

Bärsch, Georg. Ferdinand von Schill's Zug und Tod im Jahre 1809. Leipzig: Brockhaus, 1860.

Brandenburg, A. "Schills letzte Tage. Aus der Erinnerung erzählt" in: Ferdinand von Schill und die halbhundertjährige Gedächtnissfeier seines Todes am 31. des Maimonats 1859 in Stralsund. Stralsund: C. Hingst, 1859.

Grunow, August Ferdinand. Meine Drangsale als Schill'scher Gefangener auf der Galeere und in den Gefängnissen Frankreichs. Brandenburg, 1817. (2)

von Lilienkron. Schilliana: Züge und Thatsachen aus dem Leben und Charakter des Preußischen Major von Schill. 1810.

Möring, Gottfried. Kurzer Lebensabriß des von Schill'schen Invaliden Gottfried Möring aus Calvörde. Braunschweig: Friedrich Vieweg und Sohn, 1840.

Mosch, W.A. Zur Erinnerung an den ehemalien Schill'schen Officier Wilhelm August von Mosch, Major a. D. gestorben in Berlin 1861, 28 April. Stralsund: Abdruck aus der Stralsundischen Zeitung 1861.

Neugebauer, W. Schills Zug nach Stralsund und sein Ende. Tagebuch eines seiner Vertrauten. Leipzig: Basse, 1831.

von Rochow, A(dolf). Der Schill'sche Zug im Jahre 1809. Berlin: Rudolph Wagner, 1859.

von Scriba, Karl. Schills Kampf und Tod in Stralsund, 1809. Bericht des Augenzeugen Karl von Scriba. Karlsruhe: Moninger, 1932. (3)

von Voß, Felix. Zur Geschichte des Schillschen Zuges im Jahre 1809 : Aus den hinterlassenen Papieren seines Vaters mitgetheilt von F. G. V. (Manuscript, 1854.)

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(1) This anonymous author is believed to have been one of the Lützow brothers. If it was Leo, then he was at the fighting in Stralsund and was an eyewitness. If it was Adolf, then he was wounded at Dodendorf on 5 May, and thus wasn't at Stralsund.

(2) Only a bit about Stralsund; most of this memoir deals with the subsequent fate of the prisoners.

(3) Mostly reliable…. but he does include a fairly wild invention of Schill battling it out, sword-to-sword with General Carteret. (Carteret was instead killed by a jäger firing from a window.)

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Secondary sources are very numerous. I can provide a partial list if you like, but the full list would run about 12 pages.

@I did it all for the Lukhum
These are some other, secondary I admit, sources which say that the Dytch troops are more involved then you admit. But in your eyes I suppose they are all wrong.
But I think that the casualties, including a lot of officers, speak for themselves.

link

link page 680

link

link

link

link

link page 33

link : information of a reenactment society; dutch kill schill

link
This last source give a lot of information.
It also gives a different story about the fleeing of the last troops of Schill out of Stralsund as they were halted by the Dutch Danish troops (including 3 sq dutch cuirassiers not 4 as you mention (are your sources right??) but a truce was declared after which Gration granted them passage to Prussian.

Is it strange that one way or the other I get the feeling that you are biased against the dutch?

"Is it strange that one way or the other I get the feeling that you are biased against the dutch?"

Yes, actually, that is quite strange.

Unless you think that I spent 5 years of research to write a book specifically to slight the Dutch at the expense of the Danes. (Particularly when the book isn't even about the Battle of Stralsund, or the Dutch, or the Danes, and the whole incident described takes up about two pages.)

So yes, it is in fact quite strange that your response to my stating facts, is to assume that I have some obsessive dislike of your nationality.

Well, I'm very pro-Dutch and Imknow the Danes killed Schill, 'cause my Osprey told me so!

@ Yngtitan;
Blaauwberg in South Africa would probably not be in the Kingdom Of Holland uniforms because of the date. Probably still in the Batavian Republic blue uniforms.

Thanks I did it all for the Lukhum.

I was just wondering. Your sources all seem to be German sources. Isn't it possible they are as biased as the Dutch sources ?
I would love to see what the Danes have to say about Stralsund.

"Your sources all seem to be German sources. Isn't it possible they are as biased as the Dutch sources ?"

They're the recollections of the rebels in Schill's group. I was writing a book about Schill's revolt. I only cited the ones here, that gave some description of the fighting at Stralsund. There are many other German and French sources of that campaign.

The rebels didn't care whether they were defeated by Dutch or by Danes. They had no reason to be "biased" in faulty memories regarding which French-allied troops defeated them.

Nor does the city of Stralsund have any reason to exclude the Dutch troops from some sort of glory, and to give all the glory to the Danes instead.

The original claim on this thread was that Dutch and Westphalian troops defeated Schill. You will note that I pointed out that Westphalian troops weren't involved in that combat at the Knieper Gate, either. (And that in their one major combat with Schill at Dodendorf, the Westphalains broke and ran.) Does that now mean that I am "biased" against the Westphalians? Or the Germans in general?

And nobody has yet mentioned that Schill's rebels fought against Mecklenburg and other Confederation troops, and even against a handful of Polish cavalry. Are we all biased against Mecklenbugers and Poles, too?

Hopefully it is possible to say that "Such-and-Such Troops were not involved in a specific attack," without being accused of hating their nationality?

- – -

PS:

In later years, Prussians and then later most Germans, recalled that Schill was defeated simply by "the French." The German secondary sources wanted to paint a picture of a valiant German folk hero who was brought down by the mighty French oppressor, etc, etc. The patriotic German writers of the mid-19th century just made all the imperial troops "French." (And reproduced many images of Schill being killed by French troops.) So you can find plenty of German sources that give you that error.

Then in 1864, as war with Denmark loomed again, some Prussian authors suddenly began producing memories and histories of the Schill revolt that reminded everybody that the enemies were Danes. (As if to show: "Ah-Ha! Those evil Danes have been oppressing North Germans for decades…) So you get a brief period of writing in which Schill is pursued and killed entirely by the Danes. (No Dutch, no French, no Mecklenburgers, Westphalian or Polish cavalry, etc.)

Around the time that I was working on the two chapters that covered the Stralsund incidents and their outcome, Jack Gill introduced me to Mark van Hattem, who at that time was working for the Netherlands Army Museum. I asked Mark for help with the Dutch sources, and to help me sort out which ones were reliable and which weren't. He was the one who told me about Colonel Trip's unreliable memoirs, and how the stories that Trip elaborated, became part of the official Dutch version of that battle.

So I did, in fact, consult a Dutch military historian regarding this part of the book. However, most of the book has nothing to do with Dutch history. It is about Schill's revolt, and its subsequent effect on German history and mythology.

There was no claim by anyone that said that Dutch or Westphalian troops defeated Schill, you should read again what is stated.
I reacted to the incorrect remark of you that "I don't think any Dutch units saw action in the Schill revolt, although they were along for part of the ride." and "grenadiers (who weren't even present in that division".
The first one you already corrected "It's possible that some Dutch troops saw action in the city"

Tradition Magazine in the last century had a color plate by Knoetel of the 6th and 9th Dutch at Stralsund, surrounding Von Schill himself as he fell from the saddle. I can't remember which was faced dark green, and which faced black. That is the only source I have ever seen about that action, as I am focused on actions in Spain. Rose and sky blue facings are much more appealing in this age of military color.

Looks like the great Knoetel the Elder had is wrong?

GdeP

"Looks like the great Knoetel the Elder had is wrong?"

It wasn't Knötel's original image. He was going from an image that was already common by then. By the time he did it, variations of Schill's death scene were in wide circulation. The first ones appeared in 1809, within a month of his death.

There's a famous one in which Schill is reeling back in his saddle, surrounded by Dutch infantry (including grenadiers, whose companies were apparently detached at Dömitz, and not present at Stralsund.) There were dozens of variations of that image, copied from artist to artist. Prints of that image were selling on the streets of Berlin by late Summer 1809, confiscated in large numbers by the Prussian police, and then selling on the sly after that. (I read a police report from one of the busts, in which they confiscated hundreds of copies of such "Schilliana" in the basement of an old widow.)

There's another famous one in which Schill dies on foot, grasping his breast very theatrically, shot by (apparently) French soldiers.

There are zillions of them. I have a collection. I got six of them into the book, seven if you count the cover.

Schill was killed over and over again, by a variety of enemies, for decades. And in this case, Knötel was redoing an already-famous image.

@I did it all for the Lukhum. Thanks for the information

Sorry if I offended you. That was not my purpose.

Barry