"Have "true 25mm" gamers been thrown under the bus?" Topic

I started out my Colonial armies with Ral Partha. To which I added Minifigs, RAFM SOTQ, Hinchliffe, Frontier, Falcon, Iron Brigade, etc.
All "true 25mm". I might even say that early Wargames Foundry are "true 25mm", since they fit in well with SOTQ and even Ral Partha if you squint at them a little.

It seems that all of the Cool Kids today have switched to "heroic 28mm" (in reality 30mm or larger) for this period. I will not buy any of the new stuff because they would simply look giant next to my older stuff. Technically they are "the same" in scale gaming terms. But, they just do not work. Despite my lax attitude towards figure scale.

I would LOVE to see companies like Perry and Empress, etc make "true 25mm", but we have not only been kicked to the curb, we have been thrown under the bus.

The only hope we have is that some of the 20-30 year old ranges show up again at flea markets, or through TVAG's heroic rescue of old ranges.
There are also the persistent rumors of some widow holding out "for what the molds are REALLY worth" for a few other late lamented ranges. I will not name these ranges, but you know what I am talking about.
But, old stuff that we can dig up or which get miraculously resurrected are all we can hope for.

We can't even see the bus from here.

My minis "die" with me. I have no desire to increase my collection. But if I did it would be stuff that looks good with Old Glory, the smaller of the bigger scaled ranges.

Yes, Scruby and the like were replaced by true 25s, and the trend to bigger has continued. Where will it end? Somebody will resurrect the true 25s, but we'll probably be dead by then….

From what I understand, Frontier Miniatures is being resurrected and starting to produce 25mm figures again. (no web-site as of yet?)

Like John, all my Victorian Colonial forces are the smaller "true" 25mm figures. But between my wargaming buddy, Lord Sterling, and I, we have more than enough colonials for actions in North Africa, South Africa, and the North West Frontier.

By the by, Ral Partha Colonials are still being produced and have even added new figures.

link

Although the URL is a dot UK site, there is a US distributor's link there.

Jim

In a couple of more years 20mm will be 25mm tall and you will be able to collect, again.

I have given away or sold most of my 25s--I like the bigger 28s.I still have some of the better painted 25s--my Sikh Wars army is a mix of Foundry and Minifig. My Egypt,1801 army is a mix as well. I even have a unit of Minifig British fusiliers in bearskin--something they never wore in the field. I found an unpainted unit of Ral Partha Pathans the other day. They are much smaller than my Old Glory,Castaway and Foundry but they are fine sculpts and deserve a good coat of paint. I won't notice the size difference on the table top.

Would anyone really say the hobby has been ill-served by the current crop of 28mm figures? Not that I know of any reason why figures have grown larger.

And there are certainly enough options out there if you don't like heroic figures. Perry Miniatures and Empress Miniatures, or for that matter, anything done by Paul Hicks, are detailed, realistically proportioned figures.

Aesthetics vary. For me, some periods work with a simpler style, some don't. I often admire simpler figures. I love the 54mm figures from All the Kings Men. Nice, clean, old-school toy soldiers for 18th-19th century battles.

In the end, though, why deny ourselves the excellent work of current sculptors and manufacturers? If it's an economic reason, I have no argument against it. But if you just can't bring yourself to replace those four 20 man units of Ral Partha Colonials, and thereby gain compatibility with the amazing and expansive ranges available today, may I ask, where is your passion for the hobby?

May I submit that you haven't been thrown under the bus, but simply missed it? Not trying to insult anyone. I just don't see any reason to lament a general movement to more detailed, better sculpted toys. Not suggesting you replace your collections, but accept the limitations of maintaining something the market, and the hobby it serves, has essentially left behind.

Now, let's talk about books. And I'll take it all back and steadfastly maintain the opposite point of view. Kindle-toting miscreants, I say! :-)

For me there was no choice in switching my 15 and 25s went up in flames so when I got back in the hobby 28 was the new 25 but
I've always thought Frontier was one of the best ranges ever.
looked and felt like toy soldiers, which I like

Even the bus was 28mm….

And people ask me what the "Scale Creep" name means….

Mark "Extra Crispy" Severin
ScaleCreep.com
FlagshipGames.com
DeepFriedHappyMice.com

28mm manufacturers seem to be transitioning to 30mm and 32mm…

I started my serious armies back in the 1970's with Surens and Stadden. If you think the 28mm today are heroic, the largest of them is dwarved by the Willies. Anyway, I game in the 18th century. My figures are Staddens, Surens, Scruby's, S.A.E's, DPC, Greenwood and Ball, Spencer Smith, Hinchcliffe and-- yes-- even Ral Partha (for the Turks and other such wild and wooly people. Match them up one on one and you notice the difference. Put them, as I do, on one big stand with 36 figures (2 color, 2 musicians, 2 NCO, 2 officers and 28 other ranks and it doesn't matter what maker they are, they all look good and you don't notice the difference in size. Slap a good looking flag on them and paint them in nice bright colors and you'' never notice.

This goes double for the Cavalry. I love the Suren and Stadden horses. They are the best and the best proportioned , and they have absolutely realistic poses. They look like their real horses running. But that's not the point. They are huge compared to the other makers and even there I use the magnificent Turkish Heavy Cavalry with lots of other makers and you hardly notice.

Well, when I am rich I will personally (as in hire some gifted sculptor) make a new 25mm line for colonial gaming.

I've sold off all of my old 25s except for my colomials, which is mostly RP with some Minifigs, Frontier and Soldiers of the Queen. I don't think we've been thrown under the bus as much as the bus has just passed us by. I have no intention of buying and painting another 600 figures because they are "more detailed." Being more detailed is actually a reason for me not to buy the "new" figures.

John, why not ask Chevy to bring the 57' Impala. Times change and people's taste change. The car companies that tried to introduce new cars based on the "old" never had the success necessary to keep those lines going.

Sculpting styles, materials, consumer likes and dislikes, manufacturers looking for new markets, have all changed. What it would cost to have someone sculpt "true 25's" (and even there you will never get a consensus as to what is TRUE 25), as well as manufacturer the figures, would not be economical, especially given the race now between new lines and the scale going up beyond 28mm.

When I owned Conniosseur, I did well for the first three years, and then the figure war between Old Glory and Foundry cut into the interest of older lines. Now with kickstarter, and the ability for anybody to start a new line of figures, the figure war is now ten times what is was between Old Glory and Foundry,, it is more like a world war.

I have a huge army of Ral Partha Italian Wars – still use them on occasion

maybe "heroic" 20mm figures are now close enough to the older 25's?

TMP link

I share your pain. I have hundreds of unpainted true 25mm Napoleonic Minifigs, Hinchliffe, Warrior etc collected in the 70s and 80s. All of them are neatly packed in small boxes by nationalities and type.

However, about six years I made the decision to go with 28mm and focus on the War of 1812. Now I have developed another set of boxes (metal mountain) by country, regular or militia and type.

I am never going to have time to paint these true 25mm figures, so, if you are seriously interested in buying them at a reasonable price send me a PM.

Yes, in the 1990s

The new generation of manufacturers inflated scale to lessen competition. They learned that strategy from GW which found that very effective in their dominance of the fantasy figure market.

This isn't about quality of sculpts it is all about market share.

Figure sizes back in the old, old days were 20mm and 30mm. The new scales became 15mm and 25mm. Now they are heroic 18mm (i.e. 20mm) and heroic 28mm (i.e. 30mm). What was old is new again.

I have lots of "30mm" SAE figures smaller than my new 28mm figs. I have "15mm" that are really "18mm." I have 20mm that match those 18mm. I have small 6mm. What the heck, I will just buy what I like. Get all I need at one time and not worry about scale creep later.

I have 10,000 25mm Napoleonics of various heights, mostly MiniFig. Did MiniFig ever keep to one size for 25mm? I never got 25mm Hinchliffe or Essex Nappys because they were always taller than the MiniFigs. I need no more Napoleonics now anyway, even though there are many beautiful 28mm figs available.

I have multi thousand Victorian Colonial from Scruby to Ral to MiniFigs to Frontier (indeed great figs) – up to Old Glory who just barely fit in, if you squint. Many newer figs available but not needed. I do, however, have, for inter-war projects, many great Pulp, Copplestone, Brigade, Artizan, Musketeer, Foundry, Perry, Empress, Bolt Action, and Old Glory (that just barely fit if you open your eyes wide). Many others too in the new 28mm scale that I do like.

Older players who need more of the old size figs should scour eBay or check estate sales. Or play games that need fewer figures. Use the new figures for new projects.

No need to complain. Enjoy yourself, the hobby has never been so fruitful!

MY post seems to have disappeared???? Took the laptop on vacation and my grandson pushed all sorts of buttons. Wish I was computer literate.

For VSV and colonial I have my 25mm Ral Partha and some RAFM and Eureka which work with them. For SF it does not matter since aliens and humanoids from beyond the stars can be any size but my first love in that genre are my old SpaceLords. I complained about scale creep when the first 28s hit the market and was shouted down.

Good bye bus.

Many of the old figures are still available. With Garrison, we sell original 20mm Ancients – really slimline 'true' 25mm – as well as many of the later 25mm Ancients to ACW ranges.

I for one am true 25mm as I would find mixing new figures with my old collection difficult.

Garrison, Minifigs, Ral Partha, pre-slotta Citadel and Heritage, are true and can be bought.Heritage from classic miniatures at a good price.

Hinchcliffe, Dixons, Essex,are slightly bigger but hold true to old traditions and again can be bought.

Modern figures simply tower over them and I cannot get used to them, lovely as they are. Having said that if I started a new period I would go for modern sized figures.They are excellent.

I tend to use larger figures for skirmish and smaller for big battle.

Don't you get a +1 for every mm your' figures are taller than the others ?

I don't think 25mm gamers have been purposefully thrown under the bus, but have certainly been hit by a 28mm one, when they weren't looking.

A shame really.

I still like various 25mm figures, and wish companies would produce more of them.

I have a friend who's collecting as much old 25mm stuff as he can get his hands on. He's going for the cool RETRO angle with all his armies now, high gloss varnish etc.. madly collecting old minifig TYW gear at the moment……hahahaha love it !!!

I am aware of the Ral PArtha still being under production.

I also have NO problem with the current crop of "heroic 18mm" figures.
I just feel abandoned and unable to add to what I already have. Adding 3 or 4 Boxers to the Ral Partha range does not add up to "supporting the 25mm market with no product".

A huge lead mountain is the solution to scale creep.

Wouldn't it be NICE to see the quality of Perry or Empress being produced in "true 25mm"?
The problem is that NOBODY makes new "true 25mm" any more.
If it WERE being produced, we would not need the … resurrection of old ranges.

I would love to know WHY such a good range was declared obsolete. If not officially, at least in practice.

Age of Glory, I have been trying to contact you. Can you please PM me?

Thanks,

John

I think people demand more figure posses than the older rangers can offer…and so have fallen out of favour. Everyone's become more demanding and 1 option in march attack just don't cut the mustard anymore….it's a pity I know. I'm a big fan of Dixon… the Grand Alliance range in particular which I still buy bits and pieces from, but I suppose they don't get much of a look these days by new punters in the field either.

Wouldn't it be NICE to see the quality of Perry or Empress being produced in "true 25mm"?

Brother John, you miss the point. "Scale creep" occurs because sculptors want to exceed themselves (and others) in detail, so they "creep" the scale up a bit to fit more detail. The whole reason that 28mm figures exist is because you can't fit that kind of detail on a 25mm. If they could, they would have.

How is 28mm "technically the same" as 25mm??

Things move on. I loved my first car but I would struggle to get spares for it now.

Jaz
Http://revolutionaryroads.com

Wouldn't it be NICE to see the quality of Perry or Empress being produced in "true 25mm"?
Brother John, you miss the point. "Scale creep" occurs because sculptors want to exceed themselves (and others) in detail, so they "creep" the scale up a bit to fit more detail. The whole reason that 28mm figures exist is because you can't fit that kind of detail on a 25mm. If they could, they would have.

I don't buy that Mserafin:

Check Anthony Barton's work in 18mm, some of Tony Boustead's in 20mm, Franznap in 1/72,eValdemar's 1/72… these are better than most of the 28mm stuff out there…

Rich Smethurst and Dale Kemper will be at Colonial Barracks III as dealers this year with Ral Partha figures. In keeping with our "Hollywood Wargaming", they will run a "55 Days at Peking" game on Friday night featuring the new Partha Boxer line and starring "an improvised cannon with the good Father's prayers each time it's fired, with Charlton Heston and David Niven characters among others".

Check out convention details here:

link

A PEL is forthcoming as we get the games submitted.

It's not that the new stuff isn't nice, it is actually fabulous. But those of us with large collections of already painted miniatures would like to be able to add to and expand what we have instead of investing in entirely new stuff. We do not want to have hobbit British fighting Ogre sized Zulus. I also own plenty of 28's, just not in colonial 19th century.

I have never understood this new-fangled "28mm" nonsense.

Why not make things in that gloriously traditional wargaming scale, 30mm?

All the best,

John.

[To the first person who says "30mm isn't a scale, it's a size", I know that it's also not a gauge, and I don't care.]

Hear Hear for all the sensible talk on this thread.

We all seem to think that 28mm figures are good. We all want 25s to get a look-in.

Old Glory seem to be a good option as their range is massive and they are compatible with Dixon and Essex I believe.

I for one will look to buy second hand. My 25 collection is too huge to do otherwise.

Guess I'm saying my Tolkien collection could live with 28/30mm (Mithril, BTD,) but they would not fight together.

Oh yes I'll second that Kropotkin303…OG are heaven sent and have come to the rescue of many of my early armies.

The funny thing is that people who buy heroic 28-30mm put tanks in 1:56-60 next to them which looks stupid. With 28mm is 1:42 the right scale.

Rudi!

I respectfully disagree, but that would be hijacking John's thread.

But to put it simply, a 1" tall human figure described as "1:42" means the man is 3 feet, 6 inches tall.

Just the ticket for your SS Orcs!

TVAG

You haven't been thrown under a bus. People just decided to stop manufacturing what you wanted, and have suffered no fall out because of it.

Its called a free market.

Given all the "problem ,what problem?" responses, John's point is vindicated in spades.

I think the increasing popularity of 28mm plastics will see the end of 25mm metal. Sad, as most of us probably started in the late 70's when 25mm was in its heyday.
But that is progress. Who would swap a pc for a typewriter?

Trouble is John, most of us "old farts" don't buy enough figures – so it's the hip young dudes who get to call the tune.

I'm too slow a painter to scrap my 25mm and start all over again in 28mm. So it's hunt ebay and patronise the makers of old ranges (warrior, garrisson etc).

Thre are some new "non-heroic 25mm-ers" – Parkfield Miniatures seem to be actual 25mm (I like their Pirate & Smuggler ranges !).

And, for me, the answer is always the same – the future is bright, the future is 20mm plastic. That's what I intend to do everything new in.