"Inchiquin's Regiment of Foot" Topic

Somewhere, someone has done a drawing/diagram of Inchiquin's Regiment of Munster Foot, but, for the life of me, I can't remember where I have seen it. I can't find it in any of the Partizan flag booklets or in any of the ECWN+Q I have lying around. It might be in "A History of Irish Flags" but I can't lay my hanhds on that either. I know its described in Calendar Of State Papers (Ireland) but it would take forever to go thru all them again in the local Uni library.

Can anyone direct me to where it might be? I recall them as a set of red(?) flags with various numbers of gold harps and the usual crossed canton of the ECW period.

This photo of of a reenactment confirms your memory.

There might be more on the site.

link

Hi 1ngram,

I've tracked down Inchiquin's cavalry cornet in the Index Emblematicus (no44): gules fringed or and sable, a red cross in a white canton, gold harp, motto at bottom "Concordes resonem da deus alme sonos", sources Add MS 5247 fols 119b-120b (1-7); Blount 1655, sig N1b.

One of several cornets designed for Inchiquin's campaign in Ireland in 1642 and elsewhere the book mentions Inchiquin's whole regiment of horse having similar cornets, same design with different numbers of harps for each troop.

No idea on his foot, would imagine similar but fascinated to hear any more!

On pages 55 and 56 of "Irish Flags" there are illustrations and descriptions of Inchiquin's Munster's flags. The illustrations show 8 but in the text Hayes-McCoy describes "nine in number" all red and "each with the motto Concordes resonem da Deus alme sonos." The 1st: red field, gold harp, cross of St George in the canton. 2nd: no canton, but a "yellow pile wavy" towards the harp. 3rd: red field, gold harp alone. 4th: 2 harps. 5th: three harps etc. etc. All the harps have a "grotesque animal head in profile" upon the pillar in place of the 19th century harp maiden.

…and heres to more Irish Confederate war gaming!

Three really helpful posts. I knew I had seen these flags somewhere but I've been racking my brains

NY Irish, is there any chance you could scan the relevant two pages and send them to me? On Abebooks the Hayes-McCoy is going for £60.00 GBP to £100.00 GBP – way beyond my budget. My email address is kennclark@btinternet.com

Timbo W, really interested to find his cavalry troop/regiment cornet is known – and is so like his infantry standard. Can you give me the full title of the book – looking it up on Abebooks is confusing as there seems to be more than one book with that title – or more than one volume anyway.

Inchiquin is a very interesting character. The O'Briens' method of surviving the Protestant Ascendancy was to declare themselves as protestants. Inchuiquin himself returned to fight in Ireland against the Confederacy (he was a professional soldier with a Dutch puritan wife), won a variety of battles (he became known as Murrough of the Burnings for his ferocity), sent his regiment over to help Charles at the Cessation, saw it captured by Parliament, was disgusted by Charles when refused command in Munster, changed sides to Parliament who then released his regiment and sent it back to Munster, then, fearful of the rise of the radical independents he changed sides again against Cromwell. He went into exile and converted to Catholicism (to the considerable chagrin of his wife!) I believe he got all his lands back at the Restoration and died quietly in ireland. I can find references to three biographies of him but have yet to lay my hands on any of them.

Regarding Ireland in general do we know of any flag information for any other regiment on either side? I know about the list of possible Confederation Flags in the Partizan pamphlets (even if I think the Confederation used a 'maltese' cross not a St George one, )but what about Ormonde's forces etc. Is there any further info in Hayes McCoy or indeed anywhere else?

I scanned and sent the images. Hayes McCoy has a whole chapter on the flags of the Confederates and the forces against them. The chapter is 10 pages in all- I'll see what I can do for you. The prices for the book are insane, but it combines two of my loves: Ireland and flags.

That's tremendous, Andrew. I see that the original information on the Inchiquin flags came from the British Library. Hayes-McCoy references it as "BM Additional MS 5247". I wonder if there is any information on any other regiments there? Can one get copies of such things?

I note that only the first flag has the Canton with the usual cross in it with all the other flags merely having the Harps. I suspect the ninth flag – not illustrated – would have been the plain red colonel's colour.

O Dear. I've just realised that the Add Ms 5247 used by Hayes McCoy for Inchiquin's Regiment of foot is the same as the reference Timbo W gives for his horse regiment. In fact the flags depicted there fit exactly, down to the fringes and the motto, the decriptions of the horse. So Hayes McCoy may have wrongly described these flags as foot standards when in fact they are cornets of Inchiquin's Horse regiment.

Hi all,

just back home after my stag weekend, so please forgive any typos or fuzziness!

OK so here's the link for the Index Emblematicus vol 3 link on Google Books. It used to be snippet view but doesn't play ball for me at the moment.

It seems to me that the flags described are indeed the same as they all reference the BL Add Ms 5247. Though their design seems to fit an infantry colour better (the St George canton and numbers of devices) they do have fringes and are in a cmanuscript of other cornets so are likely cavalry cornets. On the other hand 9 troops is a very unusually large regiment of horse. (Though occasional horse regiments were bigger eg the 14 troops of Cromwell's Ironsides).

I'd love to hear more of any other Irish flags as well1

As for getting hold of a copy of the manuscript, I don't think its available. I imagine you could pop in to the BL for a look at the orginal, the Index Emblematicus lists 13 main source manuscripts plus a bunch of printed sources. Though interstingly it mentions that what might be a Confederate flag has survived at a Dominican Priory in Tallaght Co. Dublin – this is shaped like a guidon and 5ft 1 inch by 3ft 7 blue silk with gold arabesques with figures of the Virgin and Child within a rosary. But the provenance is a little uncertain apparently.

So we have Hayes McCoy saying they are foot standards and Index saying they are cavalry cornets. You pays your money and you . . . . . Without a look at the relevant pages of the original Ad Ms 5427 we don't know what the source material says. Can't these things be scanned on request?

As for other irish flags there are at least two wargames flag producers with the following on offer: link and

link

I don't know where they got the information from but its interesting that the only other definite Irish foot regiment – Duke of York's regiment (St Leger's) also had a Gyrony pattern so maybe this was the norm/prevalent among the protestant forces in Ireland(?) I don't know if there is any other info on any of the protestant english armies, the Munster force of Inchiquin, Ormonde's Dublin force or the Laggan army of West Ulster. Over the past twenty years there have been a shed load of books etc publishd in Ireland and elsewhere on the war there, even a book on the Laggan army, but I've seen nothing on the armies (though I believe there is a two volume PhD on "The History of the Military Forces operating in Ireland 1641-9" from as long ago as 1938)

More generally has there been anything on Civil War flags (apart from the Index) since Peachey and Prince, published now 20 odd years ago, or since the demise of ECW N+Q?

Hi 1ngram, agree it'd be rather nice to have everything scanned in and up online no idea if that's the sort of thing they do!

On the 'British' army in Ireland about 1642 iirc there's a mention in Peachey & Prince of 'x and y' coloured flags for various regiments (my books are in a huge pile due to decorating so will check when I find it!) so they might be from there?

Nice, don't suppose you know if the Irish Wars PhD is up online anywhere like Ethos etc? I have 'Confederate Catholics at War' by Padraig Lenihan and 'The Battle of Benburb' by Clive Hollick, but haven't got around to 'datamining' them yet. There's a huge amount of info around online in the Ormond Manuscripts but haven't done more than dipped my toe in those.

On ECW flags I hear the Pike & Shot Soc are planning something soon, but as you say Peachey & Prince are still best after 20 years!

Some ECW discussions on the Warlord Games forum might interest you – link

Nice Foruum, even nicer flags. Since you are a member how about asking him to do Inchiquin's regiment with the canton and single harp?

Where do you get online access to Ormonde papers? Is Carte available online as well?

I would love to find out more info on all the "British" armies in Ireland. Inchiquin only had aboput three foot regiments (plus a lot of garrison companies) The Laggan army was about the same size, 3 or sometimes 4 regiments. While the former was intermittently clothed from England the latter went home in rota/shifts so probably had no uniform coats. But they would all have had flags and maybe, just maybe, there is some info somewhere that no one has bothered to look out so far. But if there is a pile of material now available online its look into-able.

Pike and Shot Society? Where do I find out what they are up to?

Hi 1ngram,

OK, passed on the request, join up if you fancy – its free!

For Ormonde, same forum, see link in this thread, 1st post link

For Carte, I think the whole collection is unfeasibly enormous but you might find some interesting bits here link

Pike & Shot Soc website here link but not sure its massively informative.

Pike & Shot Soc info right here on TMP from Stephen Ede-Borrett TMP link (last but one post)

Phew! I'm linked out, how does Tango1 do it?

Meanwhile you might like a useful little book "An English Army For Ireland 1641-42" by Ryder, available from Caliver books.

Prelim image up on the flags thread, now that's what I call quick work by Cuchulann!

Once again many thanks Timbo W. I've joined the Warlord Forum too and I will email him the page I have from McCoy showing the flags that NY Irish sent me earlier. Its a pity we cant get the flag designer the Index as its a lot clearer.

I've got the Ryder – in fact back when I was young and carefree I bought almost everything that Partizan produced – most are now in rags from frequent reading.

But now Im retired I can spend time going thru things like Carte and Ormonde – though I suspect I will find nothing on coat colours or flags there. I have a hankering to augment my Renegade (manufacturer) Cornish with a unit of Inchiquin's foot and I recall the Calendar of State Papers sayinmg that most Irish units at the start of the war were still armed with the caliver so I thought a unit of Graven Image Border Reiver garrison men would do the trick – but the bu**ers never seem to reply to emails and the best other manufacturer is now in the US making the old Vendel figures.

Adding Inchiquin's to the Cornish certainly makes sense to me as they were shipped over to the West Country and fought at Cheriton. Not that there were huge numbers of the Old Cornish tertio left then but one or two units with Hopton iirc.

By the way, may I ask what you decided on as paint schemes for your Cornish? I realise there's no convincing historical answer but always nice to see what people have come up with!

No uniforms at all and I used the striped (supposed) trained bands flags for three of the foot units (black/yellow, red/white, blue/white)and Hoptons later flag for the fourth. I went on the assumption that these would have been the flags they already had and would have kept using them. The colours are of course my own imagination. Clarence made them for me when we started using his rules. We then moved onto Baroque – the free Impetus rules – and we have been using them (Basic Impetus) in ancients in a campaign based on Lost Battles for the past couple of years. We dont rate the full set of Impetus rules but the free basic ones for Ancients and ECW era are (with a few additions) excellent.

he became known as Murrough of the Burnings for his ferocity

He had a terrible rep because of Cashel and he changed sides so often, he was distrusted by everyone. He was hated so much locally, (Limerick) that after he died they dug him up and threw him in the river.

Timbo W In searching thru my notes of 25 or more years ago on Irish Confederates I've found reference and notes to a second list of Confederate flags from the p;apers of Fr Luke WSadding of 16743 or 1644. Same flags but with differences in description, mottos and reversed sides. I've emailed Cuchulain with this but thought you might want to see it as well. If you can send me an email address I will forward the email with the info to you.

kennclark@btinternet.com

Excellent, thanks for this 1ngram, email sent!

there's some inich flags here:

link

And theyre free, quite good!

great info guys!

cheers
Matt

Very useful – thanks for sharing

Nice flags

The original British Library Add Mss 5247 titles the flags as "Inchequin's Regiment of Horse for Ireland" so unequivocal – they are cavalry. I think Hayes-McCoy was playing fast and loose with the truth (or, perhaps more likely, he was working from someone else's incomplete notes). It's actually not too hard to get into the BL these days to see this mss – basically you have only to apply for a reader's ticket.

Add Mss 5247 seems to have been the original source for many of the cornets in the better-known "Turmile Mss" – which IS difficult to get at although the National Army Museum library does have a full photographic copy as does the Library of the Flag Institute.

Hope that helps ?

Stephen Ede-Borrett

Well, that solves that problem. I've spent some time now going through all the contemporary stuff on Ireland available on the net (and in some other places) on the wars in Ireland but there is precious little on uniforms (white coats and red coats in Munster regiments in 1647) or flags – in fact nothing at all on the latter apart from statements that they had them (usually notes that so many were captured in such and such a battle). Is there anything in material not yet available on the net? eg the second parts of each of the 3 vols of Carte Ormond appear not to be available on the net – the parts with all sorts of documents in them – nor the Ormonde manuscripts themselves. Calendar State Papers Ireland are here in the Uni library and I remember going through them thirty odd years ago but though there were such things as regimental lists from 1641/2 etc I don't recall info on dress or standards.

BTW, Stephen, do you have a further edition of your flag book coming out in the near future as I have heard rumoured?

Most of the contemporary accounts of the War in Ireland are available online – even though a few of them take some digging out and one at least (Carte's Ormonde) only appears with the document volumes missing. Because they are over 100n years old they are out of copyright.

One though was only published in the Catholc Bulletin Vols VI-X (1916-20) anmd is thus not available online. It is the text "My Irish Campaign" by D Massari who was the Papal Nuncio's secretary in Ireland.

Does anyone know any library which has this or even better does anyone have access to any library that has copies of this publication and who might be able to copy the parts for me? I would be more than happy to recompense anyone who could do this for me. His account is referenced in many of the most recent books on the war there and its annoying to be unable to read what he wrote myself