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"Valeur et Discipline" Topic

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1,026 hits since 21 Jun 2013
©1994-2016 Bill Armintrout
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pushing tin21 Jun 2013 1:40 a.m. PST

Have just posted my home brew Napoleonic rules on my blog if anyone is interested. Now I'm sure you could use another Napoleonic ruleset ! and this one is free!


together with details of the Battle of Vitoria we will be enacting tommorrow



arthur181521 Jun 2013 3:28 a.m. PST

I'm very interested in seeing your rules, but have found no way to access them! When I click on your link I see the pushing tin homepage, but if I click on one of your Vitoria topics I just get a black screen…
Help a computer ignoramus, please.

pushing tin21 Jun 2013 3:38 a.m. PST


might be the browser you are using…

try this direct link to the rules, if it works I'll post up some of the other stuff


arthur181521 Jun 2013 4:27 a.m. PST

Thank you very much! Downloaded safely and I'm looking forward to reading them – when work and family permit!
I confess, I was anticipating/hoping for something a bit shorter…
But thanks again for your help – much appreciated.

pushing tin21 Jun 2013 4:38 a.m. PST

Glad you have managed to download them and apologies for the length !

I am working on a more concise version that will work at a more general level than these, which may see the light of day eventually…(so much to do so little time…)

pushing tin21 Jun 2013 6:04 a.m. PST

I have added a quick reference guide


ColonelToffeeApple Inactive Member21 Jun 2013 4:44 p.m. PST

Excellent downloads, no problem here, need to take time to digest the rule set, all very professionally presented, thanks for your hard work.

Bandolier Supporting Member of TMP21 Jun 2013 6:52 p.m. PST

Downloaded. Thanks.

stoneman1810 Supporting Member of TMP22 Jun 2013 1:15 p.m. PST

What size miniatures are you using? And, where did you get the wagons??


pushing tin22 Jun 2013 1:52 p.m. PST

Hi John,

I use 6mm. The wagons are mostly Baccus with one or two Irregular.

ddon123422 Jun 2013 2:18 p.m. PST

You give a +2 for being in line so I assume this is to represent closing fire. I take it that you believe that both attacker and defender would use closing fire dependant on them being in line. Attack columns have been shown to be incorrect and that the French attacked with their battalions in line but supported from the rear by other battalions in line (making a column) the same as everyone else. There are a number of discussions on the miniatures page debating this and it is now a twenty year old mistake.

I am so pleased you use centimetres for movement. Once you get used to them it is a far better system of measurement than Inches. Just look at the funny numbers for your base sizes. I take it that they are in inches to fit in with your previous basing system. When De Agostini launched Napoleon at war there were a mass of questions on their forum asking for the size of bases in millimetres so they could order the correct size bases to be made.

I'll give them a try but the attack column thing may put me off.

pushing tin23 Jun 2013 3:23 a.m. PST

Thanks for your interest, yes +2 for both attacker and defender using line.

I am not really interested in a long debate about tactics, which, as you say, are covered elsewhere both on this forum and in the literature, and by better heads than me. As I say on my blog these rules won't be everyone's cup of tea and I just put them up in case anyone was interested. They are free so you can use them or not as you wish at no cost.

However, I suggest you have misinterpreted the rules if you think I am following outdated concepts on what you call 'attack columns' (not a term I use anywhere in the rules). As a unit is a Brigade there may indeed be a mixture of lines and columns within a single unit, the key is what I call 'tactical posture' and use 'column' and 'line' as shorthand for this (something I perhaps don't make clear in the rules). A 'column' in this sense (and the sense used in the rules) may indeed be what I think you mean by 'column of lines' within a brigade supporting each other, equally it could represent purely battalion 'attack columns' (which I would suggest, although it may be heresy, actually did happen, particularly with troops not as well drilled) or battalion columns intending to deploy but leaving it too late, or a deployed front line with supporting columns in the rear. A 'line' in the sense meant in the rules is a more careful and measured formation which is emphasising one or two volleys and controlled charges over use of the bayonet and elan, but requires well drilled troops and more intensive command control to use successfully. There is a bonus for being in 'column', but only if you manage to break through your opponent. So it is more likely to work against an already shaky opponent. This gives some incentive to risk using a 'column' to break through your opponent where as otherwise everyone would simply opt for 'line'.

There is no penalty in the rules for French using 'line' in my rules so they can use it along with everyone else, who can equally use 'column' (even the British!) if they wish. What I am trying to recreate is the tactical flexibility of well drilled troops compared to less well trained ones or those with officers with less tactical flair etc.

I would suggest that 'everyone' may mostly have used line (or a 'column of lines' if you prefer) but not always, and for varying reasons. My rules attempt to reflect this and make it a viable option to use column, of course you are welcome to disagree whether it does so effectively or with my interpretation, I don't claim to be an expert but the rules work for me (as I wrote them this is only to be expected !)…

If this doesn't make sense, then I am probably not explaining it very well ! It makes sense in my head and I can only suggest you try it on the table and it might make sense then !

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