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"Norman Ship 1100" Topic


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Louie N Supporting Member of TMP20 Jun 2013 10:10 p.m. PST

Hello

I found a nice model ships exhibit while visiting the Museum of Science in Boston.

One model that caught my attention was Norman Ship circa 1100.

I thought it would make a useful reference for all those scratch builders who wanted to create a "SAGA at Sea" game.

Now that I think of it; that would make a great supplement for the game.

Enjoy the model


picture

Cerdic Supporting Member of TMP20 Jun 2013 10:24 p.m. PST

That's interesting. I thought the 'castles' were a slightly later development!

Aidan Campbell20 Jun 2013 11:16 p.m. PST

That's interesting. I thought the 'castles' were a slightly later development!

I was going to say exactly the same, if unprompted I'd have guessed 12th 13th century, is any reference given as to what it's based upon? Without wishing to appear overly xenophobic, I tend to treat American museum's interpretations of early European history with a large degree of caution having seen some real howlers in my time.

As an archaeologist who's worked for various Viking museums and been involved in a project to build a full sized replica Viking boat, I'm always fascinated if any new reference material or finds that add to our knowledge of early medieval boats turn up.

GildasFacit Sponsoring Member of TMP21 Jun 2013 3:17 a.m. PST

There is very little 'real' evidence for the appearance and construction of the 'castles' on ships. There are illustrations and mentions before 1000AD but none are enough to know what exactly is meant. About the only thing that most authorities agree on is that the larger varieties were not permanent until after 1100 (probably well after).

To my eye this is more like a vessel of 1250 but, if so, then the hull is not really right for that date – it should be deeper and more bluff.

It could be a mediterranean hull though, Normans were in Sicily too, though 2 masts – both square rigged in the northern fashion – would be wrong.

My guess is that it is an attempt to recreate a ship of about 1060-1140 based on crude sketches and what later castles looked like. I'd say they got it wrong but would have serious difficulty proving that !!!

Yesthatphil21 Jun 2013 3:29 a.m. PST

Of course the Bayeux 'tapestry' still shows basic longships for the Normans, and is generally accepted as 1070s

link

In the mediterranean, galleys of this sort are standard well into the 13th Cent. (by which time round ships are the norm in Northern waters of course) …

The White Ship Disaster was 1120, and I'd always assumed that the ship involved was pretty much the same sort of vessel as used in William's fleet. However, the sources are not many, so assumptions I have made in the past may be false

Interesting

Phil

Aidan Campbell21 Jun 2013 5:24 a.m. PST

The White Ship Disaster was 1120, and I'd always assumed that the ship involved was pretty much the same sort of vessel as used in William's fleet. However, the sources are not many, so assumptions I have made in the past may be false

I'd not come across this disaster before (post conquest tends not to interest me quite as much) but having taken a little while to look into it there's a "period" manuscript illustration recounting this event which shows a ship similar to the model above. However I can't find a date for the manuscript but the fashions depicted in the illustration (mi-parti clothing) suggest the manuscript was probably drawn up 14th-15th century using contemporary designs and fashions to enliven an account of historic events.

However there's no doubting the model is a curiosity including features spanning about 300 years of history.

Great War Ace23 Jun 2013 5:14 p.m. PST

The White Ship Disaster has zero pictorial evidence from the period of the event, early 12th century. If anyone can prove otherwise, have at it, I will be as giddy as the next person to see an actual picture of such a vessel, instead of a centuries-later illo.

This boat, while very pretty (and I want one in 28mm), is not an early 12th century one, but, as already surmised, 13th century at the earliest. So the "kite" shields are anachronistic….

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