"The interesting history of the L'Indomptable." Topic

The interesting history of the L'Indomptable.

"On 11 April 1940, L'Indomptable was stationed in Trondheim with orders to attack Kriegsmarine convoys; on 28 April she hit a mine, and was purposely beached to avoid her destruction. L'Indomptable returned to Brest, France on 5 May, and was in that port when France surrendered. After France's surrender, Indomptable sailed to Casablanca with a mission to neutralize the naval activity of Free France in the South Atlantic. However, in February 1941 she was attacked by aircraft from British aircraft carrier HMS Hermes and returned to Toulon for repairs. Following repairs L'Indomptable operated in the North Atlantic, attacking Russian convoys destined for Murmansk; on several occasions she attempted to attack the convoys with torpedoes, but failed. In mid-August 1941, she hit several British mines and was forced to return to Toulon for repairs. After being repaired L'Indomptable returned to service, this time in the Mediterranean escorting Italian and German convoys. After more patrol missions, she suffered a boiler accident near Crete on 17 February 1942. The ship returned to Toulon on 8 March; while still under repair, Germany invaded Vichy France and the ship was scuttled to avoid her capture. However, following the activation of demolition charges and the opening of sea valves, L'Indomptable burned for several hours before explosive charges ignited the torpedoes and caused the ship to explode.

The bow of the wreck was raised in 1945 to repair her sister ship Malin; the stern was broken up in situ in 1950.[1]"

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Talk about a bad luck ship! But then again she was French built.

"she was French built."

Which accounts for the reason she was able to live up to her name. ;)

I wasn't aware that it and it's crew were involved in the attacks on the Russian convoys. Robert

Robert,

I was just thinking to myself that Vichy was officially neutral. This history makes it seem as if this ship engaged in acts of war against the Allies.

Possible, I suppose but has anyone any additional information on this or other French vessels actively aiding the Axis?

I find this article HIGHLY suspect. First, the only continental naval base that the French had was Toulon, and that's in the Med. Second, there is NO evidence that the French and Germans EVER acted in concert. SO, this author is saying that a DD is going to make its way out of the Med into the North Atlantic as far north as Norway? Really? (I might add that L'Indomptable was in Toulon as of Nov 1940). I need a whole lot more evidence than an doubtful article in (God help us) Wikipedia…

"I was just thinking to myself that Vichy was officially neutral. This history makes it seem as if this ship engaged in acts of war against the Allies."

Many. In defense of Vichy interests in the Eastern Med (Syria), Madagascar (both were under French control), the Western Med (French North Africa) and, of course, the Torch landings.

"Possible, I suppose but has anyone any additional information on this or other French vessels actively aiding the Axis?"

None that I've ever come across. Their treaty forbade it.

It is from Wiki so take with a grain of salt of course. I'll be adding the L'Indomptable to my plans on gaming some Russian convoy attack. . Robert

And have German flying saucers fly CAP. Would be just as realistic…. and silly…

Seems to be various stories about it,

"1935 to 1942 – L'INDOMPTABLE – Fantasque Class Destroyer – 2570 tons – 132.4 x 12.00 – 1935 Chantiers de la Mediterranee, La Seyne – 5x5.5in., 4x37mm, 9TT – 40 knots – 09/36 Indochina, 05/40 to Vichy France, 02/41 damaged by aircrasft from HMS Hermes, 08/41 badly damaged by British mines, 03/42 scuttled at Toulon to avoid German capture, 02/43 commisioned into Italian Navy as FR23, 09/43 captured by Allies, gunnery training ship, 01/44 commisioned into Polish Navy as OF2, based in Murmansk, 27/03/45 torpedoed U-Boat, beached northwest of Murmansk, abandoned, 1956 to Soviet Navy for spares."
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I did find this about a Vichy sub attacking the Allied invasion fleet sailing for Libreville, French Equitorial Africa anleiher.

"7 Nov 1940 Vichy French submarine Poncelet fired a torpedo at the Allied invasion fleet sailing for Libreville, French Equitorial Africa 50 miles southwest of Libreville, hitting sloop HMS Milford, but the torpedo failed to explode. Poncelet was forced to surface by Milford's depth charges, and then was damaged by bombs from two Walrus biplanes of HMS Devonshire. All but one of Poncelet's complement of 61 surrendered after scuttling the ship; commanding officer Commander de Saussine decided to go down with the ship."
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It is from Wiki so take with a grain of salt of course. I'll be adding the L'Indomptable to my plans on gaming some Russian convoy attack. . Robert

While you're at it you can add the Iowa to the attack, as I'm planning a Wikipedia article about her defection to the Axis shortly after commmisioning.

Seriously, Robert, those Internet sources you have quoted are not accurate. For example, FR23 was the ex-French DD Tigre, not L'Indomptable. After salvage, FR23 was manned by the Italian navy while in Axis service, not by the French. Source: "Les C.T. de 2400 tonnes du type Jaguar" by Jean Lassaque, plus numerous other reputable reference books.

The quotation in your original post, in addition to being inaccurate and casting unfair aspersions on the Vichy Navy, doesn't even make sense taken by itself. If the French were attacking Russian convoys and escorting Italian convoys, why would they bother scuttling their fleet in Toulon? Might as well turn the whole thing over to the Germans intact.

MH

I hear ya there Mark. Alot of the sources I have found are conflicting.Thanks for the info. I appreciate it. But it might make a interesting "What If?" don't ya think? Robert

For a more plausible "what if", I used both the 8th and 10th DCTs (all 6 Fantasques) in the first version of my Norway 1940 mini-campaign. Also the Dunkerque and Strasbourg. The former was in on the sinking of the Scharnhorst along with HMS Renown. Very satisfying. :-)

I could email you the materials for the 2nd version of that campaign, if you want. It uses GQ-1 and GQ-2 plus a campaign system derived from the old SPI "Flight of the Goeben" game. I already sent them to Dale.

MH

Please do Mark. . Send it to anammcharaatyahoodotcom. Robert

Wouldn't surprise me if there was some truth to the story. After Mers el Kebir and Oran the French navy was very anti-British. I believe a Canadian corvette was sunk by Vichy aircraft. There's also a submarine wreck off Prince Edward Island that is off-limits to diving, reputedly because it's a Vichy French submarine that was sunk while landing agents in French areas of Canada.

Wouldn't surprise me if there was some truth to the story. After Mers el Kebir and Oran the French navy was very anti-British. I believe a Canadian corvette was sunk by Vichy aircraft. There's also a submarine wreck off Prince Edward Island that is off-limits to diving, reputedly because it's a Vichy French submarine that was sunk while landing agents in French areas of Canada.

Yes they were angry with the British after Mers el Kebir; wouldn't you be? However, in general, subsequent conflict revolved around their defending Vichy French territory from various British / Free French / American invasions.

Note that previous posts have already pointed out major errors in those Internet articles quoted by Robert. Given that, one would be well advised to take the rest with a grain of salt. More comments on the 2 Internet articles:

1) Wikipedia claims that "on 11 April 1940, L'Indomptable was stationed in Trondheim" Note that Trondheim was captured by the German Army on April 9th, and was thus unavailable to the Allies. Instead, L'Indomptable was part of the 8th DCT, based at that time in Rosyth, UK. From Warship International No.3, 1979, "Fantastic was the Word!", 2nd of 2-part article, by Jean Meirat.: "… The 8th D.C.T., then based at Rosyth, left there at 0500 on 23April, 1940, crossed the North Sea, entered the Skagerrak and reached the 10th meridian, the limit of the sweep, around 0100 on the 24th …" This sweep is also mentioned in "Naval Operations of the Campaign in Norway", edited by David Brown. The only damage to 8th DCT during the Norwegian campaign that I've heard of is to L'Audacieux, damaged by near-miss German bombs.

2) The second Internet article seems to have copied information from the first, introducing new errors in the process. For example, it claims that the Toulon Fleet was scuttled in March 1942 (8 months off). From the above WI article: "On 27 November at Toulon, the whole Mediterranean fleet was scuttled, and Indomptable went to the bottom along with her Division mates, Mogador and Volta. The Germans contemplated raising her for use as a fast escort vessel and designated her SG-9, but the project was never carried out." (Note that L'Indomptable was reassigned to 6th DCT with Mogador and Volta, after Mers el Kebir).

MH

I got em MH. Thanks . Robert

To correct an error in my post above: "The only damage to 8th DCT during the Norwegian campaign that I've heard of is to Le Triomphant, damaged by near-miss German bombs".

MH

That Wikipedia entry is so wrong on so many points that it resembles a piece of steaming dog "teurde"…

L'Indomptable was never, ever stationed in Indochina. In 1939, she was busy off war-torn Spain, not demonstrating for the Chinese.

L'Indomptable was never based in Trondheim (as mentioned above it was based in Rosyth under RN command for the Norwegian campaign). She never did hit a mine, as a matter of fact on 28 April she was berthed in Rosyth which she left on the 30th for Brest. On 6 May, she left Brest for Oran (in Algeria). She never sailed to Casablanca and was based in Toulon from 4 July 1940.

She was never hit by an aircraft from HMS Hermes and never, ever operated in the Atlantic, let alone in the North Atlantic. The funny thing is she is supposed to have attacked "Russian convoys destined for Murmansk" before hitting a mine in mid-August 1941 but the first British convoy to Russia (Dervish) left Iceland on 21 August and reached Arkhangelsk on 31 August. The first British convoy to Murmansk was PQ6 which sailed on 26 December.

The bit about escorting Italian and German convoys is a load of nonsensical crap (though French aircrews overflying British conoys in the Med made it a habit of broadcasting their position in clear).

Oh, and even the description of her scuttling is a flight of fancy: her torpedoes never exploded and she was in fact raised by the Italian Navy and sunk again in the same place by American bombers.

There is so much " alternate history' crap on the internet it would be easy for one to mix up fact and fiction! However, some French vessels were taken over by the Germans and re-used against the Allies.

Yes: four Sans-Souci class seaplane tenders, three Flower class corvettes and three Chamois class sloops…

This entry does read like someone cut 'n pasted from some alternate timeline from some webpage out there…

Where do these nutters who invent stuff like this and try to change history come from?

Clowns like these nutters have been around forever. You can read contemporary Greek and Roman 'histories' that bear no relation to the actual events. And it still goes on today.

There was also French MTBs ,Former French Fishery Protection boat Cerbθre,French trawlers,Yachts and other small craft. It just goes to show as I always say about Wiki. Take with a grain of salt. Robert